Topic: Opinions on Screen Shots
Started by: Lara
Started on: 3/18/2004
Board: Indie Game Design
On 3/18/2004 at 2:25am, Lara wrote:
Opinions on Screen Shots
Been working on screen shots for our game. Its a 2D MMORPG and the images are sans lighting and shadows at this time. Hence they are brighter then they will appear to maintain detail.
All constructive feed back very much appreciated.
http://www.sanctuaryshard.com/images_temp/Cloverforest2.jpg
http://www.sanctuaryshard.com/images_temp/scrubscreen2a.jpg
http://www.sanctuaryshard.com/images_temp/scrubscreen2b.jpg
http://www.sanctuary-portals.com/modules.php?full=1&set_albumName=album01&id=Pine_InGame&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
http://www.sanctuary-portals.com/modules.php?full=1&set_albumName=album01&id=pinescreen4a&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
Thanks!
Lara
On 3/18/2004 at 2:48am, Zathreyel wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
very pretty pictures, i can assure you, but i think you might be posting to the wrong crowd here. I don't want to speak for everyone, but this forum is generally for the discussion and development of indipendent Table-top and Live-action RPGs, not the computer-based MMORPG variant that you are working on.
good luck with your project none-the less.
On 3/18/2004 at 3:07am, Lara wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
*smacks head* You know, I did check the sticky's before hand. *laughs* That term RPG is evil ... can get quite confusing.
My pardons.
Lara
On 3/18/2004 at 3:42am, Zathreyel wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
hey don't worry about it. we actually see it here alot. it's nice to notice though that you actually contributed to other people's threads. most of the people that come by with their computer-based games just throw out their screen cpatures and contribute nothing to the other Forgites forums.
so i say thumbs up to you. ;-)
On 3/18/2004 at 4:45am, Lara wrote:
*blushes*
Yeah I actually read that whole thread on the irish halflings ... but didn't think I could comment at the same caliber, but I certainly digested it.
Besides I'm an old table topper myself ... *thinks and counts on fingers* 21 years now.
Lara
On 3/18/2004 at 9:28am, contracycle wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
I say theres a lot of overlap; if I could the tools online games can use emplyed at the desktop, I certainly would. Good foliage, btw. I think more attention to the production of props in real time at the tabletop... REAL desktop publishing.
On 3/18/2004 at 4:38pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
Hey folks,
Give Lara the feedback she's asked for. I think that there's enough crossover in terms of design and impact to blur the boundaries a little, and Lara, you've provided enough good-faith participation to merit all kinds of reciprocity.
Best,
Ron
On 3/18/2004 at 4:55pm, Jack Aidley wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
Hi Lara,
What you've got seems pretty impressive, although it is hard to tell from a few screenshots (and judging by the download times on them, I sincerely hope you've got a faster connection/bigger server for when you go live). Your site talks about a March alpha which does, I have to say, looks wildly optimistic at this time.
Anyway, the pictures - I have a couple of comments:
The ground looks pretty 'tiled' - I expect lighting and shadows will help reduce this, but it might be worth spending some time or more varied textures and bluring the edges between them a bit more (or even procedurely generating them).
The screenshots struck me as 'samey'. Which may just be the particular set you're showing, or the stage your at, but if not I think you need to think a bit more about getting more distinct colours and features into your landscapes.
Good luck,
Jack.
On 3/18/2004 at 5:28pm, Lara wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
Ron Edwards wrote:
Lara, you've provided enough good-faith participation to merit all kinds of reciprocity.
Thank you very much, I've enjoyed reading what is discussed here and will do my best to stay active given time considerations.
Yes March is optomistic. As it looks now, as of the updates from the dev team yesterday, we're looking end of April to begin alpha.
One of the main problems with doing 2d graphics is they are inherently tiled, we are using large tiles to reduce the obviousness of it. But I will look into providing a few more sample base tiles. We are trying not to kill people with the hard drive requirements.
The bluring limitation was based on a performance decision. Since there are so many games that are only going after high end machines, we are trying to build a good game that is playable even on dial up and lower end machines. To provide a smoother edge we'd have to require higher end graphic cards, something I'm loath to do.
I've had the same thoughts about the color variation. I thought I would wait until the lighting and shadows were in however before I deceide to up the number of graphics.
Thanks for the feed back!
Lara
On 3/18/2004 at 6:07pm, Christopher Weeks wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
The other option is to go with smaller tiles so that the pattern is lost to abstraction. You could have more different small tiles that couple in graphically interesting ways to prevent the appearance of a repetitious field. I think.
Chris
On 3/18/2004 at 6:27pm, daMoose_Neo wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
Christopher Weeks wrote: The other option is to go with smaller tiles so that the pattern is lost to abstraction.
What size tiles are you working with?
I've never really worked on anything as graphically detailed, but I'm working on an MMORPG system myself using 16x16 tiles. On mine, I'm going for a console look to it anyway, so if it feels a little tiled oh well, but the smaller tiles do help. I have run my own engine using some higher res/larger images and the smaller size can help break it down more and seem less repetative.
On 3/18/2004 at 10:13pm, Alex Johnson wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
Several comments. First I'm very impressed by the appearance of the vegetation and ground in general. It's much more detailed than Diablo II, the other pseudo-2D CFRPG I'm familiar with. The variety of vegetation is one of the things that jumped out at me. Having different types of plants and colors of flowers makes such a nice image. Unless you are presenting an Eden for your tech demo, this won't be the kind of scene normally seen in a FRPG.
I don't really notice the tiling as much as in Diablo II. They blend well. Perhaps if I were playing 4 hours of the game nonstop this would jump out at me more. I would spend more CPU cycles on generating the ground by formula rather than pre-rendered tiles, than spend those cycles on things like paralax, too fancy lighting and shadows, etc. One thing that will make or break your realism is all that vegitation you worked so hard on. If the character just walks over the flowers without trampling them, or through the tall grasses without pushing them outward as (s)he passes, it will be worse than a plain grass ground because it will be less believable. Have the character occlude parts of the plants will be very demanding and basically require a 3D model of the environment. Not worth it, but hard to avoid. Wind and water effects really sell well, but those will use up even more CPU than the deformation of vegitation by the character. Don't get too far without trying to address these issues, at least verbally, or you'll end up throwing out a lot of lovely artwork.
On 3/18/2004 at 10:18pm, anonymouse wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
Hey Lara,
Out of curiousity.. I assume this is for an RPG game? I ask because the screenshots immediately make me think of Baldur's Gate (especially 1, with all the Bandit Wood areas), and to a lesser extent Lionheart (the wooded areas right outside the first city).
That's the only comment I have off the top of my head at the moment; if it's same genre, same style of play, might want to try to diversify the look a little. =) It looks pretty good, mind you, much better than BG's trees (which, considering the intervening years, is hoped for! ;), but I still immediately mentally paused the game and looked around for hidden archers. ;)
On 3/18/2004 at 10:24pm, Walt Freitag wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
The vegetation does look really good. Some of it gets visually lost, though, against the green grassy regions of the ground. You might want to consider making the grass different, less saturated colors (tan for dry grass, dark brown for bare ground, patchy weeds mixed with some bare ground averaging out to olive). Perfect green lawns are pretty rare (either widely scattered, or existing only for relatively short seasons) in most temperate wilderness and rural agricultural areas.
Hmm, on the other hand, if you expect characters to be wearing a lot of natural colors (read: brown), maybe it's better to keep the ground cover green to make the characters stand out more...
- Walt
On 3/18/2004 at 10:39pm, Zathreyel wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
hey, as the man said, you've deffinetly been nice enough to warrant a response. now, i'm not one much for computer games (honestly!), but i do have to say that these ground shots are looking pretty tasty. the flora looks lovely and the grass looks much like the real thing. there is a little weirdness when itcomes to the lighting, in that your undefined light source(s) lights the vegitation fine, but the ground seems to be lit by light sources striking from a different direction. maybe this will be fixed by your shadowing , which you said is absent from these screen shots, perhaps not. just a little nit-pick. my bad.
any character shots though? those would really interrest me...
On 3/19/2004 at 9:02am, contracycle wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
Alex Johnson wrote: Have the character occlude parts of the plants will be very demanding and basically require a 3D model of the environment. Not worth it, but hard to avoid.
Hmm, I dunno, the Total War series use 2D sprites to animate apparently 3D units. Its apprently only noticeable if you zoom in and look at individual 'men' and occassionally see they don't actually have a left side, just a mirror of the right. But, that said, this is using a 3d environemt in some manner.
On 3/19/2004 at 3:15pm, Lara wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
Hello,
Since everyone was so kind to respond, I’ve taken the time to go thru each of your comments and respond appropriately. Thank you very much for the consideration.
Christopher Weeks wrote: The other option is to go with smaller tiles so that the pattern is lost to abstraction. You could have more different small tiles that couple in graphically interesting ways to prevent the appearance of a repetitious field.
That was our original attempt, however even with various tile sizes between 96x96 and 48x48 – standard for most older style tile based games we could not get the detail we wanted. To do this you need sets of seamless tiles, multiple sets. To get anything that even gave the appearance of actually having grass blades was either impossible or simply beyond our skills. UO which is probably the most well known 2d isometric MMORPG has the same challenge. Their green grass is nothing more then green tiles with a minor texture on it. We wanted to actually show the grass, so went with larger tiles and much more detailed textures.
Christopher Weeks wrote: What size tiles are you working with? I've never really worked on anything as graphically detailed, but I'm working on an MMORPG system myself using 16x16 tiles.
Our tiles range from 200x200 to 600x600. All of these screens are done with one “base” tile with overlays for things like the pine leaves, clover, roads, etc. Reducing the repetitiveness should simply be a question of adding another one or two base tiles. For having a single large base tile we got a lot of detail that gives the impression of depth and ground cover.
Alex Johnson wrote: First I'm very impressed by the appearance of the vegetation and ground in general. The variety of vegetation is one of the things that jumped out at me. Having different types of plants and colors of flowers makes such a nice image.
First thank you … the other aspect of the variety in vegetation is that is specific to the area and tied into that area’s harvestable resources. Ie. Specific wood types, specific types of plants and herbs.
The balance of you suggestions would certainly add depth and realism, however we are very much interested in staying 2D and not ready to take additional client requirements for producing a 3D game, even if its just minor effects. Most of the games coming out these days are 3D and leave those without the hardware in the dust. So until we see how the game actually plays we’re following KISS.
anonymouse wrote: I assume this is for an RPG game?
That's the only comment I have off the top of my head at the moment; if it's same genre, same style of play, might want to try to diversify the look a little. =)
Yes its an online RPG, not single player like balders gate. I’ve only presented a small subset of the overall graphical styles that are to be used. We obviously started with the simpler ones to make sure everything works. The later sets will be more complicated, including such things as navigatable mountain ranges, desert, rain forest and a dark forest theme.
Walt Freitag wrote: The vegetation does look really good. Some of it gets visually lost, though, against the green grassy regions of the ground. You might want to consider making the grass different, less saturated colors (tan for dry grass, dark brown for bare ground, patchy weeds mixed with some bare ground averaging out to olive).
We’ve already toned down the grass in a few of the sets. However the developers tell me to keep it bright and rich so that when the lighting and shadows go in it doesn’t look dreary.
Zathreyel wrote: .. but i do have to say that these ground shots are looking pretty tasty. the flora looks lovely and the grass looks much like the real thing. there is a little weirdness when itcomes to the lighting, in that your undefined light source(s) lights the vegitation fine, but the ground seems to be lit by light sources striking from a different direction. maybe this will be fixed by your shadowing , which you said is absent from these screen shots, perhaps not. just a little nit-pick. my bad. any character shots though? those would really interrest me...
Thank you, the flora was fun to do. Frustrating but fun. Lighting should fix a lot of it. I’ve done some simulated lighting in photoshop and it makes a huge difference. We do not yet have any “avatar graphics” (the little guy on screen) but we do have some paper doll images that can be seen here:
http://www.sanctuary-portals.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album03&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
More to be released soon:
Again thank you all for your responses, they are beyond valuable!
Lara
On 3/19/2004 at 3:22pm, Lara wrote:
RE: Opinions on Screen Shots
Here is a sample with some simulated lighting to see the difference:
http://www.sanctuaryshard.com/images_temp/Cloverforest2s.jpg
Lara