HELP all my players want ot have full plate and helmet!

they got the money, and they think they got a big enough CP to handle it.
Alright! my problem as a GameMaster is that i think that wearing a full suit og armour and making long week long marches into the wilderness really do not seem very likely.

If the characters where using wagons or transport animals i can see no problems.
but how do i make them understand that it some how is not right wearing full plate armour along with your other equipment, walking on foot in the thick forests and other "hard" terrain for several days?, ie they also think they can sleep in it with no problem...

How do i make them understand that full plate is for the battlefield war and such things, and not just having on you incase that a warband of orcs suddenly attacks you in the middle of the wilderness?

Or is it ME who got i all wrong? is there really no problems in traveling for days in full plate armour?

Use some fatigue rules. ie sleeping in plate =-3CP, Hiking in plate is -1CP per hour resting. Let them try to chase things or run away from things with their Move scores really low...make them cross water...with the chance of falling in and drowning...make every one suspicious of them for being in full plate....etc...

Yes, those are good ways, but i really want to try to make them understand these thing you say by talking to them instead of punishing them in the game. I have tryed to tell them that knights did only wear there armour for war. But they simple don't understand that wearing full plate is not like wearing a sweatshirt and loose jeans.

maybe i should have them being chased by a angry orc warband, and make them throw away there armour to gain speed, that would be fun hehe, next time i maybe thing they will consider not wearing it.....i hope so in any case!.

Don't have a book handy to point to a page, but this should already be covered in the fatigue rules.

I'm pretty sure there are some guidelines for applying fatigue outside of combat, and I know for certain that fatigue hits guys in heavy armor quicker than light armor.


Don't forget also to enforce the social status of your players. Take a look at the priority they paid for social status. Is it one that is appropriate to wearing plate mail in your campaign? Armor ain't sold at ye olde Wal Mart after all. In any kingdom there are only going to be a handful of armorers able to make this stuff well.

What is going to motivate them to sell a suit to your PCs?

Are they really going to interrupt the job for the Duke in order to make a suit for the PCs? Doubtful.

What about lesser munitions grade plate that would be worn by solderly types. Fantastic idea. How are they going to get a set outside of signing up to serve with a mercenary company?

And whose going to let them keep it? Taking armor from defeated opponents was pretty standard operating procedure. So they come up with a clever way of getting their hands on some...doesn't mean they'll have it forever...


Besides that picture this. You're a baron. You own a couple of castles and have a few vassals in fortified manors in your barony. Out of the woods along the road comes a half dozen men in full plate. They have no heraldric device. They bear no flag. They don't carry any letter of formal introduction from anyone important...what are you going to do?

Treat them like outlaws and run them out of the county perhaps?.


There are only 4 kinds of folks that travel around the countryside heavily armed and armored.

1) Noblemen with a legitimate right to bear arms
2) People in the service of noblemen going about the legitimate business of their lord.
3) Bandits and outlaws.
4) Mercenaries...who count as #2 if employed, and #3 if not.

Which are your characters?...remember, there is no "band of adventurers minding our own business out on walk about" option in any realistic campaign.

If they aren't #1 or #2, or #4 in the employ of a #1...then they'd best keep a fairly low profile (i.e. not draw attention by galavanting around in full plate), because if they look dangerous, they're going to get treated like #3.

Thow some ppl with equal combat pools, high relexes, no armor, and some good anti-armor weapons at them.


:)

Explain that armor was *only* worn to battle. That anyone walking in the company of other people in armor is the same as someone (not a soldier in current active service) casually walking around wal-mart with an M-16 and a flak jacket. Talk to them about the penalties that would come from wearing it, and base those penalties off of the above suggestions or off of the light sleeper flaw (as if they never got sleep, representing the constant fatigue and discomfort). If they wear the stuff in hot weather, apply generic damage to the head and torso. You get the picture. Don't punish without explaining, though.

Jake

thanks i think i will try giveing them all the points you have given me, and i very much like the idea of a bunch on non-nobles, without any heraldy or whatsoever, just walking around, would very properly been seen as trouble-makers by the local Duke or Baron. Are they elite merc's on a mission, sent by his rival?

and did anyone say armour-tax in big citys? hehe just a longshot

As has been mentioned by Jake, Valamir & Toli there were many drawbacks to constantly wearing plate. But there were also a few more. Heat exhaustion, sweat and hygiene. In the good 'ole days when this stuff was worn, you were in a metal can for a period of time. If you are in this stuff and sweating away, you get, soaked, dehydrated and end up with salt sores. Next you end up duffering heat exhaustion, possibly even heat stroke if you spend too much time in this stuff. Next is the going to the loo. Taking this stuff off for a leak and or a bowel movement is not easy. It will also take at least 15 to 20 minutes to take off, go to the W.C. and put it back on. And what about the hygiene? They are gonna collect nits, fleas and lice in that hunk of harness, maille & arming jacket. They will also begin to stink to high heaven. Of course there is the biggy.... If they are wearing it constantly, they will wear it out due to rust and wear in a much shorter period of time. And unless they happen to be willing to part with thier harness for at least a few months for it to be refurbished, it will quickly degrade until they are forced to repair it themselves. Then we can go over to piecemeal armour...

How you use this stuff is up to you. I have not had to address this as my players do not suffer such illusions.

This last post is great, i will print it out to show them, there armour getting broken...hehe that i like see them handle......

bergh wrote: This last post is great, i will print it out to show them, there armour getting broken...hehe that i like see them handle......

These last couple of posts have me worried.

Bergh, I really wouldn't recommend setting up or encouraging a adversarial relationship with your players by pitting you against them in a contest of will to see whether or not they get to wear plate mail. That's a recipe for disastor, both in and out of game.

TROS especially is a game that requires cooperation between GM and players. For SAs to work properly there needs to be an environment where neither player nor GM is percieved as trying to screw with the other.

I heartily do not recommend using any of the comments given here as a tool to punish your players...ever. That's just bad form.

Go over with them some of the notes that have been made here. Explain that there are many reasons for them not to do what they suggest. There are effectiveness issues (fatigue, and heat stroke and the like). There are expense issues (repair and maintenance and the like). And there are the social issues of wondering around armed to the teeth on someone elses land.

They see only the advantage of having a good armor factor in case they get attacked. Lay out for them all of the disadvantages. Explain exactly how these disadvantages will effect play and how you as GM intend to handle them in the game. If their characters have any kind of martial experience at all, they'd know this stuff anyway.

Then let them choose which course they like.

But don't ambush them with ha, ha, your armor just rusted and fell off. Or
ha, ha, the local duke has declared you an outlaw. They'll just resent that. But if they know in advance that armor wears out and needs to be maintained. And if they know in advance that dukes respond poorly to armed men tramping around...then they can chose what trouble they do or don't want to get themselves into.

I've got to stand by the last reply. I made that mistake ONCE, the first time I DMed a campaign of "that other game"TM. In that game the issue was magic, I was running a campaign in a world where magic was viewed with suspiscion. I explained this at the start of the game, but the players still did things like cast illusion spells in public. Instead of really stressing out of game the risks being take, I cracked down and sent waves of anti-magic shock troop enforcers at them.
They got upset.

As the GM you need to make sure the players understand what the characters would know about a world. When I run games now I make sure everyone knows two things: magic is looked upon with paranoia and distrust by most everyone in the world, using it in public will earn you a trip to the stake. The second thing I stress is that people get nervous at the sight of armed "adventurers" wandering through their town. I do enforce these rules in play, but I make sure everyone knows what choices they are making in advance.

I had a simillar issue in a game once that ended up getting resolved in a rather funny way: the party was entering a village ruled by an evil lord. Everyone, wisely, removed their weapons and armor to make themselves as inconspicuous as possible. Everyone except the nobel Paladin who'd sworn to free the land from his evil nemesis of course. As soon as we entered the town he was greeted with shouts of "Murderer! You killed my daughter, pig!" as an old woman ran at him from a barn hurling horse dung.

No one had told HER that this was one of the good guys....

Okay.
I should not have been so short on it.
I should have said, let them purchase the armour, *if* they can find somebody who will sell it to them, let them wait the five to six weeks (Months if a local Noble is arming for war). Then let them use and wear it as they want, but make sure they see the effects of long term wear. Show them what is happening to the armour, but do it gradually, much like the harness would deteriorate normally. As you see fit, be sure to have them know thay need to maintain the harness and its accoutrements as needed. As they go on, describe how the armour requires repair and a strap here or there needs to be replaced by a skilled journeyman. Each dent banged back out will weaken the plate, so a platner will need to be hired to restore some strength to the piece after a few hard hits, other wise the AV will decrease. Also, if they are riding horses, a harness proofed rider is going to require a Charger or Destrier, a normal riding horse or garron will quickly go lame bearing such weight.

I also think that the previous two posts are correct on some points. Perhaps letting them know about the amount of maintenance involved in an occaissionally worn harness, nevermind one worn every waking (and many a sleeping) moment of the day is not such a bad idea... If they say "Yeah, sure... okay.... can I have my harness now"? then fine. You warned them, if they take heed and work hard on the harness and maintain it, great! If not, well, see my first post on maintnenance and go from there. You are not there to suck up to them... You are there to give them a world in which to explore their SAs.

FIRST OFF ALL, there is not going to be a player vs. gm war, they are "former" D&D players just need to learn new things, there old game master did only run hack-and-slash, so they are just not used to thinking, but they are getting better, and why they ALL fell in love with the Full plate, is becouse they got a chock how dangerous combat is.

And 2nd, i think maybe half my team would LOVE that i made some plot around them, and they would just roleplay if they got any problems with there armour, and maybe think its rather fun.

The other half, im not so sure about, they would maybe not understand in a nice way, i have tried to tell them facts about full plate armour, how gross it is behind it and such, heat factor ex.ex.ex., but im still willing to learn them.

in the end i would deem those player who don't understand a thing, that:
THEY ARE TO DUMB TO UNDERSTAND, THEREFOR TO DUMB TO PLAY.
i generaly don't want to waste my time on players who are idiots.

Anyway im not trying to say that plate armour is a NO NO, just only that maybe they should get some horses, and let them carry there armour, and then travel and try to thing or roleplay them out of trouble, this will in the end give better roleplay instead of hack-and-slash.

When they begin to roleplay better i will have no problems them having plate armour, becouse then they will know that walking into a foreign city in armour and weapons in there belt, not is the best thing to do.

MY GOAL: is to make them learn to roleplay, not just fight.
if they can not adjust to this demand, they maybe should drop my game and play some diablo, or other online internet "roleplay".

Another thing to consider is what your players are trying to tell you by wanting to wear heavy armor all the time.

You will only know by talking to them about it, of course.

They may be trying to tell you that they really love combat and that's what they want to see a lot of. If this is the case, then you need to take it into account in the campaign.

On the other hand, they may be trying to tell you that they love their characters so much they're afraid of seeing them hurt. In this case, maybe a simple discussion about play priorities and SA's and such would alleviate their fears to an extent.

Finally, it may simply be because they've come from very gamist RPG's like D&D where the simple fact is that everyone who can graduates to heavier and heavier armor because of the all important "AC" attribute. Again, a chat about game focus and character/player goals may help here.

In any case, I suggest having a round-table with your players and discussing things. You'll be amazed how reasonable people will be when such discussions are made before a game, rather then during one (where they'll get their backs up because you're trying to take their shiny armor away.)

Brian.

Here's a fun scenario you could run that would also teach your players the reasons for not wearing full-plate all the time.

Ransom

A common assumption about people who can afford to wear full-plate is that they can afford to pay a ransom if captured. So why not have one or more of the characters captured and a ransom is offered for their release, the ransomers assuming the characters can pay a lot bigger ransom than they actually have in ready cash.

The character(s) who captured after being made to swear an oath that they will return to pay the ransom are freed to go raise the money. However the ransomers keep something or someone valuable to the characters as a deposit (like their precious armour or a npc they have SAs towards) should the characters not return with the money.

Now the characters have a stark choice should they try and raise the huge ransom or are they going to break their oath and attempt a rescue of their deposite item/person.

Interestingly this did happen in a number of medieval ransom situations. When King David II of Scotland was captured by the English at the battle of Neville's Cross in Durham in 1346, a number of captured Scottish knights led by Sir William Douglas were given early parole to return to Scotland and help raise their king's (and their own) ransom. When Sir William failed to persuade the Scottish nobility to raise it, he dutifully returned to his imprisonment in the Tower of London. Incidently King David was freed in 1357 for a ransom of £66,000 (multiply that at least 100 times to get even a rough approximate of its modern value). The Scots were allowed to pay it in ten installments and over that period twenty Scots noblemen in all served as hostages.

Ransom idea is good, but what Brian L. is saying i can only say this:

YES THEY COME FROM A D&D HACK-AND-SLASH GAME
where more is better, and they where used to fight battles, where they where outnumbered 20:1, some of them was getting boring of this and decided to play my game, but they got a major surprice in there first encounter and have learned a lesson. On my next session i will give them a little talk about armours and how i see them and full plate armour not is "warrior clothing". but anyway i think i will try to roleplay it, people may think they are nobels and such, maybe attracting attention from "Real" nobels, i think i will manage, and i like ALL the stuff you have written to me in this thread, i will write again when we have had a session.

Ransoms occured during tourneys as well. Knights would often wager horses, armor and other equpiment on the outcome of their tilts. If they lost they had to pay a ransom to have the item returned.

Ultimately though I don't think you'll have much of a problem. Once they see that this is not like D&D they will pobably realize that plate has a time and place. They'll use it but not depend on it because of the various costs involved with its ownership.

Really, its something not to totally wig on. Let them.

As noted in the various posts above, there are social consequences and long term health problems if they decide to wear plate as one would in D&D. Also, once they get into combat with other knights, it will assuredly be a bloodbath...Halfswording, armor piercing weapons like lances and all those mass weapons (most have +1 Damage against hard armor). Their CPs will suffer due to the encumbrance they have taken upon themselves.

And...there's missle weapons (!). Adversaries may go for their mounts. Multiple opponents won't be fun. Eventually, after losing a few characters they might realize combat is no joke, and concetrate on role-playing with their SAs.

i will got for the social thing and sickness.

Missile fire is not very good against full plate, if a guy have 10 MP and a shortbow, then he maybe get 5 succecces, most of my players got TO5 and full plate. thats 10 vs. 11....hehe ping!, the archers need to get around 7-8 success to hurt them seriously....with the +1 atn for 10 years, diff. are not unlikely to go up to 9-10...

but anyway i will try roleplaying me out of my problems with them.

Being a Hârnmaster GM for a long time, I faced the same problem with my group (PCs wearing their mail hauberks everywhere).

I asked a friend (who is a reenactor) to lend me his mail shirt, helmet, sword and shield and brought the stuff to a gaming session. Every player was invited to put on the armour for a few minutes. Needless to say, no one was keen to wear it the whole evening.

This worked far better than any explanation or rule could. Everyone understood that it is VERY inconvenient (if not impossible) to wear one's armour all the time.

what you are saying, i have tryed to say to them, becouse i myself have tryed a suit of full chain and helmet, but they think that they are tough enough to do it.

I would love to borrow a suit, but i don't have the any i know who got one.

A thought, is this in your LotR game bergh?

If it is don't allow full plate, no-one in middle earth wears full plate, (do they? Can't remeber it being in the books or the films).

It it for my LoTR campaign, but the campaign in not 100% LoTR true, anyway i think the Gondorian soldiers and cavalry do have lots of plate armour. and the Uruk Hai's from Isengard seem to me to be wearing ALOT of plate armour.

I don't know if you catogory this as full plate amrour, but i do.

bergh wrote: It it for my LoTR campaign, but the campaign in not 100% LoTR true, anyway i think the Gondorian soldiers and cavalry do have lots of plate armour. and the Uruk Hai's from Isengard seem to me to be wearing ALOT of plate armour.

I don't know if you catogory this as full plate amrour, but i do.

Maybe becouse in the movie the armour was made from plastic. hehe. but anyways thanks for you looking at my orc stats.

Thanks for your compliment

And yes, i have based my war orcs around the Mercenary/soldier NPC's trying to both adjust them around this, and also trying to make them a challange as the players get more experinced.
As i see it Orcs are a warlike race where the weak are killed, therefor i think that a normal orc soldier is just as good as a human soldier, maybe better on some points, becouse there race a a tough one, even for there size.

The stat block is something i made my self, the stat block in OBaM, does not have the weapon, armour and notes section.

Im uploading more creatures right now, look in my thread about middle earth for the links. I need more people to see them, and find mistakes.

Brian Leybourne wrote:
In any case, I suggest having a round-table with your players and discussing things.

Full, i.e. Gothic plate is not present in MIddle Earth. The movies show the soldiers of Gondor and the Urak-Hai wearing a mixed plate, while the Rohirim wear chain. Elves are also shown wearing fairly extensive and elaborate plate, but it still has joints and weak points.

Of course the movies also show the Rohirim making calvary charges against pike armed infantry while riding unbarded horses and weilding viking style short swords....

In the books the only specific descriptions of armor I remember are when Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are given suits of mail and leather from the armory at helms deep and when Pippin joins the legions of gondor (he's given a boy's breastplate and helm). No plate that I can recall. I think Tolkien was assuming a technology level about equivalent to that of his main inspirations: the epic poems of Iceland and early Welsh and Anglo-Saxon myths.

Another thing you can try pointing out: when the fellowship left Rivendell only the Dwarf wore any armor at all (I think Boromir and Aragorn have leather in the films) and he is wearing chain with a steel pot helm. Do they think they are tougher than a dwarf?

In seriousness though, you are probably right thinking its no big deal. so your players have a particular peice of equpiment they feel is important to their characters identity. Its no different from someone who wants to make a duelist character who is a master of the rapier, or a huntsman with renown skill with the longbow. They are still human under that plate, they still have SAs driving them. You can try to hold onto realisim but if they want to be the heavy armored fist of a campaign let them. Give the Urak-Hai a contingent of fully barded super wards and lances. Given them heavy crossbows fring steel bolts, they work (there was a reason the pope outlawed their use against Christians). Maybe have the Rohirim be a culture more like the Knights of the Round and host tourneys where your players can show off their skill and valour, etc.

The near constant presence of plate simply changes how they will fight, not the drama of it. Especially when they are facing others in simillar equipment.