pete_darby wrote: Goddamn, we need a new introduction to roleplaying...

Well there's one section I'd like to see...three essays

1) The joys and wonders of Immersion in character
2) Powerful Roleplaying experiences through meta game.
3) Immersion and the Metagame, not as mutually exclusive as you think

I think that would be a great resource, especially for GMs. We seem to lost focus on how to have fun with roleplaying, because that is the goal in the end.

I'd love to see resources from many different sources on what player's and GMs find fun and how to implement them. Mechanics are almost always secondary to that IMO.

Matthew, your comments actually bring to mind another great chapter (which I might be interested in writing, actually):

In Search of Value
-- 1. Pleasure & Escapism (how we enjoy play because it's fun and exciting)
-- 2. Meaning & Aesthetic Appreciation (how we enjoy play that isn't especially fun, like tragedy or true horror)
-- 3. Knowledge & Experimentation (how we enjoy play that isn't especially successful, since it teaches us things)
-- 4. Creation & Memory (how we enjoy play for its own sake, due to its reflection of ourselves and what we put into it)

Wow, those are chapters I would want to read! That would be extremely helpful.

Jonathan Walton wrote: -- 2. Meaning & Aesthetic Appreciation (how we enjoy play that isn't especially fun, like tragedy or true horror)

Yeah, Jack. I've written whole articles (for my RPGnet column) on this very issue. The point is just that we can enjoy roleplaying in ways that are unrelated to it being "fun," not to say that it can't be fun AND meaningful/aesthetic.

For book form, I would say that "The Fantasy Role-Playing Gamer's Bible" comes very close to what you are talking about Jonathan. It includes a lot of basic, introductory material on role-playing plus an overview of many games. The 2nd edition was published in 2000 by Obsidian Studios. (ISBN: 0967442907) I think they're gone now and it's out of print, but it should be possible to find a copy.

On the other hand, it's certainly not the be-all end-all, and a new and better book would be great. You can look at it for pointers, though.

Thanks for the suggestion, John. I'll definitely check it out.

Still, I was hoping for something a bit different. Not necessarily just an introduction to roleplaying, but something that went deeper into how to be a good player. I'm imagining something that would be just as useful to people who are already familiar with roleplaying, encouraging them to improve their play.

Many roleplayers aren't necessarily interested in becoming better roleplayers. They're fine roleplaying the way they always have. But I'd like for the book to lay all sorts of options and ideas out, so that people are at least aware that the way they choose to roleplay isn't the only thing that people are doing.

Jonathan Walton wrote: Thanks for the suggestion, John. I'll definitely check it out.

Still, I was hoping for something a bit different. Not necessarily just an introduction to roleplaying, but something that went deeper into how to be a good player. I'm imagining something that would be just as useful to people who are already familiar with roleplaying, encouraging them to improve their play.

A section on theory would be nice:
1. The Threefold Model
2. GNS and the Big Model
3. Alternative Theoretical Directions
4. What's the Value of Theory?
5. Theory and Practical Design
6. Theory and Play
7. Analytical or Abstract Theories
and so forth.

John and Ron are hereby nominated to write #1 and #2, if'n you ask my opinion. 'Course, they already have, so perhaps just a distillation, revision, or reprint?

There's a series currently being edited by a large academic conference that has volumes on teaching different broad subjects. I'm contributing to one right now, and should see a sample volume soon. From what I hear, it may be a good model for this, since the object is to talk about theory and history and whatnot while at the same time applying it to a practical situation, with practical and theoretical advice intertwined.

Chris Lehrich

Then you're nominated for sections 3 & 7, Chris!

I'd also like to see a section here about the limits of applicability of non-role playing theory to RP theory*: but I'm also wondering if this "introduction to RP theory" is a separate work.

*Subtitle; "You lay off the jazz, I'll lay off the Star Trek"

How about:

How to build a character and enjoy what you built?

I don't mean what feats to select or which disad is more fun, but various ways of finding concepts and then enjoying them.

Expressing a concept in the system-du-jour (but then phrased politely :-)

I'm thinking of both some general pointers and couple of examples worked in several systems. Basically show `how to think about this' by example.

SR
PS: If this goes anywhere, I'm willing to contribute the raw text to PDF conversion. Anybody wants art, they'd have to supply it :-)

Assuming you'd want this book to have semi-universal merit, I'd stress a value system that prioritizes:

Recognizing the participants and factors of the game(Yourself, your other players, GM(If it applies), The Books.)

Recogonizing what the particpants want and set out to do, including, what you yourself are expecting from the game and plan on doing, what the game's intentions are and what it is designed to do well.

If this is a cooperative game, emhpasize how to mesh your desires for the game with your other particpants and how to deal with irregularlity between shared vision.

If this is a competetion-oriented game, emphasize what limits the competetion has, and what cooperative measures must be taken to insure that everyone still has a good time.

Jonathan Walton wrote:
-- 1. Pleasure & Escapism (how we enjoy play because it's fun and exciting)
-- 2. Meaning & Aesthetic Appreciation (how we enjoy play that isn't especially fun, like tragedy or true horror)
-- 3. Knowledge & Experimentation (how we enjoy play that isn't especially successful, since it teaches us things)
-- 4. Creation & Memory (how we enjoy play for its own sake, due to its reflection of ourselves and what we put into it)

This is a book that I would read and buy if need be. A lot of the posts were kind of confusing to me, because of all the large words used in them and so I could have missed some things. But there should be a section on "The Ineveitable", the death of your character, even though sometimes it's possible to retire a character and not have them die but live on forever in our dreams. It is important that new players understand that they will have many characters over the years and that some of them will die and it's not a tragedy, but can be an amazing role-playing session if done correctly.

Based on a volume to which I am contributing, let me put forward a possible structure. This is by no means supposed to be complete or comprehensive.

--

Introduction
What is this volume, and why? Who’s in it? What are the sections? How should I use this?

1. Foundations
What is gaming? Where did it come from, and what is its history? What’s doing lately in the hobby? What about concerned parents and relatives (religious concerns, “Mazes and Monsters”-type concerns, Columbine, etc.)? If I’m explaining the hobby to a newcomer, what’s a good way to go about it? Where would I start? What sorts of games are a good place to start? What sorts of games make useful things to GM, for what purposes? Indie and non-indie RPGs. The RPG “scene” in various countries. Etc.

2. Issues and Applications
Character design. Setting design. GM techniques. Player techniques. Using “things” (handouts, miniatures, pictures, etc.). Dice, cards, etc. Narration and distribution. Stances. LARPs and “acting it out”.

3. Problems
Social contract problems. Problem players. Problem GM’s. “How come my players are so passive?” When your character dies. “Balance” in game design. “Realism.” Genre clash. Design incoherence. “Only a game.” Railroading.

4. Theory
GNS. Threefold. Mechanics for specific ends. Experimental design. Abstract theory and analysis. Why theorize? Theory and application in tandem. Writing and publishing games. Putting pictures in your game. Alternative publishing routes.

Appendix: Resources
Websites, interesting games, glossary, author remarks, index, etc.

Images
These should be chosen by article authors and acquired for that purpose, or else commissioned by the editor. Images will definitely improve the appearance of the product, but should not dominate text.

--

If I were editing this, I would lay down the law about the following:
1. Three deadlines, all absolute without considerable prior warning. (A) Deadline for first draft. The drafts are then distributed to all authors, for optional comments and to help the volume cohere. (B) Deadline for any remarks about drafts, to be made via the editor and passed on at his discretion and in his own terms. (C) Deadline for final draft.

2. Word count or page length. I’d want most articles to be 10-15 pages, double-spaced, 12-pt, maximum, including all notes, bibliographies, images, etc. A few would be predetermined to be long, a few to be short. Over-long articles will be cut by the editor.

3. Any images must be copyright-free, or else the total process of getting rights and paying for them is the sole responsibility of the article author, who pays out of pocket if need be, and provides full documentation of any such rights.

Based on all this, I’d expect a volume of about 20-25 articles, weighing in at about 250 pages, in trade paperback form. As a complete package, fully edited and so forth, that might well be an attractive thing for a real publisher, which would guarantee distribution.

A potential legal issue, I believe, would arise if Forge forum articles were reprinted, as there would have to be some discussion of the fact that the articles are otherwise available for free.

--

A problem worth considering early rather than late is the “identity” of the book. Consider the following three titles:
The Forge Guide to Role-Playing Games
The Compleat Gamer’s Bible
Role-Playing Games

The first has a definite identity: The Forge. But is that appropriate? Is it helpful? Do Ron and Clinton say it’s OK?
The second has an identity, but it’s simply an assertion of authority. Is that cool?
The third has no identity, and thus is totally flat.

So my point is that the book would need a real identity, and that would have to be pretty clear before the editor asks for articles, because that would be in the request post.

If this were going to be called The Forge Guide or some such, I’d want to see a limited-lifespan forum for discussion of the articles, and some kind of rules about how to discuss them and present pieces without violating one’s own copyright in advance (if that’s even possible).

Anyway, just some ideas.

Chris Lehrich

I think a definition of what a "Player" is would be rather important. espicially with detail on games that blur the lines.

Also, should probably talk about how far the game wants to blur the line between tabletop and LARP, with things like, physically acting out actions, props, intereasting game locations, etc. With corresponding dramatic techniques for such decsisions.

Chris, your general outline does a fair job of breaking everything down. I'm going to tweak it and flesh it out a bit and see if I can't come up with something for people to comment on directly.

clehrich wrote: A problem worth considering early rather than late is the “identity” of the book. Consider the following three titles:
The Forge Guide to Role-Playing Games
The Compleat Gamer’s Bible
Role-Playing Games

Okay, here's a big old post. I've taken Chris' project outline and adapted based on my own interests and what I'd want from a book. Obviously, these are very personal issues and I'm very willing to compromise if people feel the focus would not be as helpful to the audience I'm trying to target. There are a few questions, thoughts, and blank spots in the outline where I'm not sure how things fit together. Help me fill holes, resolve problems, and let me know if I'm beginning to bark up the wrong tree.


PROJECT OUTLINE

Title: Player’s Guide to Roleplaying: Essays on a Contemporary Creative Medium (tentative)

Forward (optional)
Written by Somebody-Famous-With-an-Approachable-Writing-Style, after reading the volume. I don’t think Vin Diesel would work. I’m imagining some well-known genre-defying fiction author who’s very friendly, like Gaiman or Le Guin. Or maybe someone from the industry who writes pretty and intelligent stuff about the nature of roleplaying, like Stoltz or Laws or Baugh or Hite (Damn, I can only think of male theorists right now. Where’d my brain go?).

Introduction
What is this volume, and why? Who’s in it? What are the sections? How should I use this? Written by the Editors

Definitions: What is roleplaying?
Comparative Answer (“Roleplaying is like make-believe, jazz, improv theatre, etc…)
Historical Answer (“Roleplaying is a practice that developed in the late 70’s…”)
Medium Answer (“Roleplaying is exploration of shared narrative space, using…”)
Goals Answer (“Roleplaying is about creating certain kinds of experiences…”)
Theory Answer (“Roleplaying is something that we have continually struggled to define…”)

EDIT: Thoughts: Notice that this section, with the exception of the "Comparative Answer," introduces the other sections of the book, with the exception of "Problems."

History: How did we get here?
Background (Before there was roleplaying…)
The 1970’s
The 1980’s
The 1990’s
2000-2005

Thoughts: History should include both social and play history, reactions to roleplaying in the wider community, and, where possible, information on roleplaying that goes beyond the Anglo-American scene, and beyond the mainstream to look at indie and avant-garde play.

The Medium: How do we roleplay?
Social Contract (group dynamics, being a player, GMs, problem solving, understood rules)
Character (immersion, single vs. multiple, player control, PCs vs. NPCs, protagonism, creation)
Setting (setting creation, shared imagining, suspension of disbelief)
System (Drama/Karma/Fortune, Lumpley Principle, techniques, design considerations)
Situation (plotting, who creates situations, scene framing, bangs/kicks)
Color (communicating color, shared symbolic language)

Question: I’m thinking that Setting and Color are similar beasts in that the tools for creating and communicating them are often very similar. Can we conflate them? That way we could have 5 articles in each section.

Question: Where does Ralph’s requested discussion of immersion vs. metagame enjoyment come in? Character? Later on in Goals?

The Goals: Why are we doing this?
Pleasure & Escapism (fun, entertainment)
Meaning & Aesthetic Appreciation (significance, beauty)
Challenge & Accomplishment (success)
Knowledge & Experimentation (education)
Creation & Memory (expression)
.
Problems: Why can’t we do this well?
Communication
Expectations
Design
??
??

Theory: How do we analyze this?
The Value of Theory
Theoretical Directions (different takes on theory, including Threefold, GNS, and alternative takes)
Theory and Design
Theory and Play
Theory and The Industry

Thoughts: I’m unsure about including actual summaries of comprehensive theories/models in the work, since they are available elsewhere in a more comprehensive form. Maybe we should just leave GNS and Threefold out, though of course they will referenced in other articles (especially “Theoretical Directions”). This way we can have more general articles about theory instead of articles that describe specific theories.

Resources: Where can we find out more?
Glossary
Websites
Interesting games (basically a bibliography of every game mentioned in the book)
Index


PROJECT GUIDELINES

1. Three deadlines, all absolute unless the editors are given considerable prior warning. (A) Deadline for first draft. The drafts are then distributed to all authors, for optional comments and to help the volume cohere. (B) Deadline for any remarks about drafts, to be made via the editor and passed on at his discretion and in his own terms. (C) Deadline for final draft.

2. Page length. Most articles should be 10-15 pages, double-spaced, 12-pt, maximum, including all notes, bibliographies, etc. (not including images, which are added during layout). A few would be predetermined to be long, a few to be short. Over-long articles will be cut by the editors.

3. Any images must be copyright-free and donated to the project by their respective artists. Images should adhere to the art notes for the book itself, which are drafted by the editors and then revised based on input from the contributors.

4. Since all contributions (articles, artwork, design work, editing, etc.) are donated, the PDF version of the work would have to remain free forever and would be freely distributed, perhaps with a Creative Commons copyright. Print copies of the work (probably done through a POD service, at least initially) would be sold at cost. This would be written into the legal information for the work. I’d like to have some sort of contingency plan in case a major publisher outside the industry (say an academic press or Random House) wanted rights to the work, but I don’t know what that might be at this point.

5. The result would be a volume of about 30 articles, weighing in at about 300+ pages, in trade paperback form, printed in a standard book format and not roleplaying’s typical overlarge size.

Jonathan Walton wrote: I’m unsure about including actual summaries of comprehensive theories/models in the work, since they are available elsewhere in a more comprehensive form. Maybe we should just leave GNS and Threefold out, though of course they will referenced in other articles (especially “Theoretical Directions”). This way we can have more general articles about theory instead of articles that describe specific theories.

Hmm. I'm sympathetic to your concerns. I'd really like to get Vincent to write a whole article on "Adventures in Improvizational System" and write a piece on through-framing myself. It's just harder to outline that stuff, though, since it's much more specific and less general. More research involved.

So you're suggesting something that really is a toolbox for play creation, instead of discussions that will provoke people to develop new tools or look at existing tools in different ways? You know, that's really more what I had in mind when I suggested the "Player's Handbook" title in the first place. Damn cognative drift! Still, it's the kind of thing that would need to be continually updated as new techniques develop.

Okay, I'll try another outline revision tomorrow, when I've had a chance to sleep on it and come at it fresh.

Slow down, boy. Take your time. This sort of thing has been proposed before, with no result, so you can afford to take some time and get it right.

Yes, I do think it should be a toolbox. At the same time, I think it should be a toolbox containing some tools that are not always recognized as such. So practical, yes, but also quite theoretical. I'm sort of thinking that it should reflect what's really best about the Forge, whether it bears that name or otherwise, i.e. the willingness to use the wildest, craziest, most novel techniques, or to use the tried-and-true, entirely without fear or favor. Innovative gaming, but mostly because it knows just how many choices there are and has good reasons for the ones it picks at any given moment.

My suggestion is that you start by getting together a rough conception of what has to be in the book. Then solicit concepts for what else should be in the book.

Chris Lehrich

What sort of time frame are you looking at for this project? Perhaps throughout the 2005 year for a GenCon release? Perhaps 2006 GC? I'd love to contribute an essay (or two or three...) if you'll have me, especially on Challenge and Competition, and how it differs from power-gaming, triumph, and accumulation.

I would note that GNS is essentially present, just not by that name, which is cool.

I second the thought that all effort should be made to make this a "practical volume." I.E., if I were to write about Challenge and Competition, I would write about ways that it has been done successfully, ideas for how else it might be done, and things which it combines well with and not so well with.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S. I have no idea where it would fit, but I have an essay boiling called "understanding the minimax" about the what minimaxing means in the context of gaming and what, if anything, ought to be done to "solve" it. This essay seems to fit the general course of the book, if not the given outline.

I just emailed Jonathan about times, having done edited volumes before, and I'll pass on my conclusions.

I would estimate that from a serious start (such as we haven't really quite gotten to yet) to the actual PDF will take about a year, give or take, not including whatever time it takes for the printer or publisher to transform the PDF into bound volumes (something I know nothing about in this particular publishing area). Most certainly, nobody should debar himself from contributing on the grounds that he's going to be busy for a couple months; this is irrelevant. On the other hand, agreeing to be a contributor is a long-term commitment, although the work will be rather sporadic and pre-scheduled well in advance.

I don't know when GenCon is (I admit it!), but I'm thinking we're looking at something like August, 2005 at the earliest for saleable copies. One should always estimate high on these things -- they never go as smoothly as you think they will.

One remark to anyone thinking of making contributions. From my experience as a volume editor, you're likely to get quite peeved with Jonathan by the end of the project. He's going to have to nag regularly, be inflexible, and generally do what he can to keep your nose to the grindstone. An article that comes in very late will (or should) be discarded, with no credit due. As a rule, an organized sort of person can edit a volume without trouble, but the authors make an easy process into a nightmare. If you think you might have trouble finishing an article under pressure, don't volunteer. If you're one of those people who always gets things done immediately rather than putting it off, Jonathan is going to adore you for the rest of his life.

Chris Lehrich

clehrich wrote: Slow down, boy. Take your time. This sort of thing has been proposed before, with no result, so you can afford to take some time and get it right.

This sounds like a worthy project (one which I'd love to contribute to at some level). Right now I see a few dangerous things lurking around here, things which have haunted the rpg-literature too much in opininion. I'm bringing these out for consideration. My writing style is offensive-as-usual, but I hope it serves to bring out the the general idea of focus, focus, focus.

1) Forget the beginners, forget the outsiders

To make text readable to beginners and even outsiders most likely means stripping it of anything not obvious. It also usually means lengthy and boring introductions to things that most readers are all too well aware, drowning the ideas in examples. A bulk of the writing energy goes to making the text easy-to-read instead of making the point sharp and clear. There's a lot of people who are quite capable of understanding roleplaying issues without the examples and introductions. There's even more roleplayers who are just not going to bother with a 300 page book which takes a long time explaining things which they already know. A good introductory book is very different from a "toolbox for the advanced learner". Trying to write both is not a good idea. Talk to me, not to the mysterious Them

2) History? Cut the crap.

I like history. I just don't think it really has much to do with anything. Face it, most roleplayers are under 30 years old, what ever happened in the 70's and 80's just doesn't really touch them that much. Yes, history affects the present, but I have never seen anything really useful in an rpg-history text. If your going to write a whole 500 page book on the subject, then I'd be interested, because then you could really present something which might contribute to my gaming. Just listing "things that were" has been done a dozen times. You can't do much more in under 200 pages, and you don't want that much in a book which is supposed to be of general interest.

3) Why "the why"? Just tell me how

I know why I'm playing. Most people know why they are playing. Saying that "you can play for different reasons" is stating the bloody obvious. "Why" is fun for an introductory article, but honestly, there's not that much meat there. I don't think this even has much to do with actual roleplaying. This is general art/aesthetic blah-blah, and there's just too much of that going around. Tell people that "you can do art" and get on with it. "How" is interesting and useful, "why" is neither, and I think I speak for the majority here. Books about theater, literature or football don't need articles about "why we play" and "can it be x". Anything can be everything; say "this applies to roleplaying" and move on. How to do handle emotional exploration, how to turn the game into narration...

Itse wrote: My writing style is offensive-as-usual, but I hope it serves to bring out the the general idea of focus, focus, focus.

Commenting on Itse's comments.

1) I agree. There is certainly room for text aimed at beginners and "non gamers" but they should almost certainly be seperate volumes (hey...a multivolume set...heh).

2) History. I would love to see the work permeated by history actually. NOT in the heres a chapter on 1978 through 1982...here's one on 1983 to 1988 sense. But rather in every essay where ideas about play are being espoused for there to be a concerted effort to tie that into the history of the hobby. If the author isn't capable of this, than perhaps there could be a historical editor/consultant who could read an essay and annotate the essays along the lines of "this notion first appeared in 2nd edition Champions before largely disappearing from mainstream RPG texts" or "a series of articles in Dragon magazine in the mid 80s were instrumental in encouraging this style of play".

That might be a rather herculean task, but I'm a firm believer that a big reason why this hobby has difficulty moving forward is that few people understand the historical provenance of it all. There's an embedded sense of "how roleplaying is supposed to work" that isn't at all supported by the fact that alot of stuff people consider radical or revolutionary today, was actually pretty common or at least had it protogenesis back in the day when nobody but the old fogies really remember it.


3) A key decision that IMO needs to be made up front and adhered to pretty rigidly is whether the text is going to be primarily about practical technique or aesthetic evaluation. I don't think the two can be combined in one work without being very very deliberate about it...a level of deliberation that I don't think is very possible to achieve in an anthology of essays, unless the editor actually assigns specific essays to specific people complete with a list of topics to cover in the essay.


Sounds like a great project.

I would like to echo Risto's point about the history of roleplaying isn't worth your time. That is, there's an excellent history of roleplaying in the Fantasy Role-Playing Gamer's Bible. It's actually pretty interesting to someone like me when Arneson, Gygax, Wesley, et al are doing their wargaming thing and it eventually "gels" into D&D. But after that, it become "And then this game was published...and then this game was published..." which is not interesting at all.

If you must include anything about history, keep it to a small paragraph. Think of the origin summary at the begining or the Spider-Man newspaper strip. One sentence- boom- you're done. Now back to the show.

Reading the posts on this second page has given me some doubt as to whether this really works as a book; and Itse's comments have reinforced that significantly.

It may be that what you guys want to do is start work on an e-zine. It's easily published in PDF, and you can take your various "sections" and "chapters" and turn them into "columns" and "articles".

This would even allow you to include a "basics" segment, a series targeting those who are beginners, without diluting the focus of the later materials. You could still do the history materials, in a section devoted to that.

Of course, if you see this working as a book, more power to you. I suppose it could; I just don't see it yet.

--M. J. Young

I would also like to encourage PDF (or whatnot, internet publication) as a format. Using that, you could really keep it up to date, build it from the ground up and have it easily available. You don't have to worry about comprehensiveness to start with, so you wouldn't have to accept "the best you could get" instead "actually good", which is too often the case.

(This is actually something I've been thinking about for a while, but if I'd do it, I should do it in Finnish. My English is not that strong.)

Well, it's possible that it could work something like my development plan for Argonauts. I'm planning to release the game as a playtest PDF, get feedback from the players, continually update and expand the PDF version, and when I feel like it's as good as it's going to get, send it to a POD printer and make actual print copies.

Still, I don't think that's quite the plan we have in mind. After all, we could make some POD copies at any point. That doesn't keep us from updating or expanding the (free!) PDF version at a later point in time. Since the book now looks to be a handbook of roleplaying techniques, it's going to need to be updated regularly, just because new games and theories are going to come out that require new discussions of new techniques. After all, once Humble Mythologies and Beneath This Facade hit the ground, I'm hoping to open up a whole new area of possibilities...

I, personally, see a problem with any book based on "role-playing" in general. I mean, how many different types of RPG's exist? How many different ways of playing are there? I'd suggest the variance in role-playing is far greater than the variance in computer games, but you know what? I'd put $100 on a bet that a book about "techniques for playing computer games" would be a piece of crap. Perhaps a book on "first-person shooters" might work, but it'd still be biting off more than it can chew, IMHO. Hell, most magazines are crap, and they can at least update themselves monthly. Plus their core material is pretty solid and easily defined. Can the same be said for RPG's?

Take Dragon for example, it needs to deal with a limited scope of RPG types (like AD&D and its ripoffs) or else it would become mush. As it stands, most of it is junk anyways.

Anyways, thats my rant. In conclusion, I'd not be thinking that such a book as proposed in this thread would be worth my paying for. I sure wouldn't buy a book on "how to be a good real-time-strategy player".

Ravien wrote: Anyways, thats my rant. In conclusion, I'd not be thinking that such a book as proposed in this thread would be worth my paying for. I sure wouldn't buy a book on "how to be a good real-time-strategy player".

Ravien,
Certainly, no one expects the work to be definitive. At least, I certainly hope no one expects it. But I think the project has merit simply because of what it attempts to do - create a "what is roleplaying?" text that isn't a pile of shit.

Also, I'd like to point out this thread as food for thought, on the off chance that Jonathan (and whoever else) missed it. It talks about trust among participants of an RPG, an issue that definitely should be addressed in this proposed work.

Jonathan Walton wrote: Matthew, your comments actually bring to mind another great chapter (which I might be interested in writing, actually):

In Search of Value
-- 1. Pleasure & Escapism (how we enjoy play because it's fun and exciting)
-- 2. Meaning & Aesthetic Appreciation (how we enjoy play that isn't especially fun, like tragedy or true horror)
-- 3. Knowledge & Experimentation (how we enjoy play that isn't especially successful, since it teaches us things)
-- 4. Creation & Memory (how we enjoy play for its own sake, due to its reflection of ourselves and what we put into it)

I'm more inclined to agree with the "Newsletter/e-zine" camp.
PC/Console Gaming books were mentioned and agreed- I personally think it stupid to pay $15 for a book that tells you HOW to play the game. I'd rather put gas in my car, buy a 2 liter of Mt. Dew and a bag of Cheetos to eat while I play the game.
On top of that, the books/magazines that sell the best are the ones with maps, walkthroughs, cheats and shortcuts. I'm sure this isn't what you want to do (and it'd be rather hard to have a book that goes "And when the Bartender asks you for the key you tell him "XYZ"").
Part of it is my personal opinion that any playing (video or RP) is more fun when explored by myself/my group. The other part is a newsletter is by far more viable; in each issue, offer colomns/series on introductory role playing, tips for a fun campaign/adventure, review an exciting and innovative new Indie RP, do a "Historical Showcase" or "Creator Showcase" for historical games/events/developers etc. If you want to charge, put a $1/$2 price tag on it or accept donations.

Jody_Butt wrote: That's awesome, John. You should write this up into an essay, and post it here. I would like to read your thoughts. I've been thinking a lot about such things, lately (well, almost all the time, actually).

Looks great, you two. Excellent work.

edited to add:
What is your framework for soliciting/accepting contributions?

Emily Care wrote: What is your framework for soliciting/accepting contributions?

Emily,

My sense of the time-frame and such is more or less as Jonathan posted it. One point in this sort of thing is that people are often very excited and gung-ho at first, and sign up to do something, then realize that if they can't get it done in a week a whole lot of other things come piling in. Those who think ahead thus start deciding that maybe they don't want to volunteer to submit a paper; those who don't end up holding up the whole process, producing an unpleasant cycle of guilt and nagging and general unhappiness. So whatever deadlines are set would be relatively long-term, and absolute.

As Jonathan says, things are currently a bit behind-the-scenes, because some structural issues need to get worked out. You should expect to hear more of what's doing relatively soon, though.

General Points

We hope everyone will look at the website and read over the table of contents carefully. Assume a relatively broad but straightforward sense of the content of each article listed. Now here's what we ask of you:

1. Are there important, essential articles clearly absent here?
2. Are there articles here that seem especially irrelevant or minor? Note that the long set (section 2) consists of rather brief notes in most cases, not 25-page articles. If it all seems irrelevant or pointless, that's fine too, but what really interests us right now is whether there are specific articles that seem trivial.

If you want to make a case about this, for example an argument about why some section or article is well or poorly structured, needs to be changed, etc., please do so here. But if you simply want to suggest that we add or drop an article, more or less a vote, please send it by PM to me or Jonathan so as not to clutter the Forge by turning a thread into a survey (which is not the intent here).

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A Note On Zines

daMoose_Neo wrote: I personally think it stupid to pay $15 for a book that tells you HOW to play the game. I'd rather put gas in my car, buy a 2 liter of Mt. Dew and a bag of Cheetos to eat while I play the game. On top of that, the books/magazines that sell the best are the ones with maps, walkthroughs, cheats and shortcuts. I'm sure this isn't what you want to do (and it'd be rather hard to have a book that goes "And when the Bartender asks you for the key you tell him "XYZ""). ... Part of it is my personal opinion that any playing (video or RP) is more fun when explored by myself/my group.

clehrich wrote:
1. Are there important, essential articles clearly absent here?

2. Are there articles here that seem especially irrelevant or minor? Note that the long set (section 2) consists of rather brief notes in most cases, not 25-page articles. If it all seems irrelevant or pointless, that's fine too, but what really interests us right now is whether there are specific articles that seem trivial.

Y'know, when I first saw this thread started, I had serious doubts about the project, and bluntly, whether or not I would consider dropping money on the final product.

Having read the outline, I guess I'm pretty well convinced of its goodness.

It seems like you guys are shooting for a really solid distallation of various Forge discussions. Thank god. There are really great discussions at this site, but I for one, really would love to have a book that summed them up.

Good luck. I hate to wait a year to see this product (delayed gratification is not my strong suit!).

Quick question:
Will any of the articles make a preliminary appearance on the Forge? I know that the publishing forum threads have debated the wisdom of freely available games that are later published as a sold product. Still, I'd be interested in seeing both the work in progress and buying the final hardcopy.

Of course, I was one of those people that, in my AD&D days, thought that the Best of Dragon special issues were essential to own, even when I already owned the original issues ...

Robert

edit:
Afterthought:
When the book is a reality, you might want to see if you can get it sold in the reference section of BigBookstores, in the same area where you find guides to writing, and specifically writing genre fiction. This is an area that you might not have considered for distribution. Plus, I sorta hope that this book showing up in said area might suck new blood into the hobby...

komradebob wrote: Will any of the articles make a preliminary appearance on the Forge? I know that the publishing forum threads have debated the wisdom of freely available games that are later published as a sold product. Still, I'd be interested in seeing both the work in progress and buying the final hardcopy.

When the book is a reality, you might want to see if you can get it sold in the reference section of BigBookstores, in the same area where you find guides to writing, and specifically writing genre fiction. This is an area that you might not have considered for distribution. Plus, I sorta hope that this book showing up in said area might suck new blood into the hobby...