HI

Im making races for my TRoS middle earth campaign, and i wish that elves a simply more Tolkien. so i have made this up:


Silvan or Wood Elves - Race Priority: A
+2 Per, +1 Soc, +1 Ag, +1 Wit, +2 skill profiencies, Woodsman/Ranger skill packet at 9

Hobbits or Halflings - Race priority: F
-2 ST, -2 TO, + 1 Per, +1 Social, Flaw: Small (-1 weapon length)

DWARF.
Character creation: B Priority
Lifespan: average 230, old 250. A few Dwarves reach 300.
Height: Male average 4' 9" (4'5”-5’2”), Female 4' 5" (4'2"-4’9")
Weight: Average140lbs-150lbs
Stats: +2 TO (or +1TO,+1 ST), +1 EN, +1 WP, -1 Soc, -1 AG, -2 MOVE (Minimum 4).
Gifts: Night Vision: 30 yards
Flaw: Little (-1 on weapon length).
Skills: Automatic Craft skill at SR 6

what do you think? to over powered/under powered?

Hobbits seem a bit underpowered. They are pretty resiliant, resourceful creatures despite their size. According to the descriptions in the various books they should get a bonus to the camoflauge and move silently skill, probably a bonus to bow proficiency, and better agility. I would also make them a high priority than F.

Also you probably want to consider state from Duendain, or humans of the pure line of Neumenor.

Tash wrote: probably a bonus to bow proficiency

Both: "They shot well with the bow, for they were keen-eyed and sure at the mark. Not only with bows and arrows. If any Hobbit stooped for a stone, it was well to get quickly under cover, as all trespassing beast knew very well."

From the prologue to Fellowship, pg 15 of the 3 volume collectors edition hardcover.

The proluge is also where it states that they are skilled in "the art of disappearing swiftly and silently...and this art they have developed until to men it may seem magical."

So I'd give they a basic proficency with bows and thrown weapons at 3 and Camoflage/Move Silently at 6 or 7 (with possibly a bonus against "Big people") probably.

Edit: A question: are there any magic using humans besides the Wizards (Wizards being kinda-sorta human even though they were sent to Middle Earth by the Valar)?

Hobbits have +AG....? are they not small and fat ?

I very confused on how to make the Hobbit STrength and TOughness. maybe they should only have -1 TO and -2 ST, maybe with a fixed maximum or something.

thanks for the very good priority sheet. i will use it as a guide

but the idea is that is should be a costfull choise to be an elf or Dwarf, so i still think i will stick the Dwarf at B and elf at A.
But should the elf really be buffed more up?, maybe a +1 Wit more? how do you think he should be better?

How much better are a Dunedain vs a normal human? share your LoTR knowledge!

bergh wrote:

How much better are a Dunedain vs a normal human? share your LoTR knowledge!

Dunedain vs. normal human: these are the descendents of the human kings of Numenor, who are actually descended from Elrond's brother Elros (Forgive me if I got the name wrong, without the Silmarilion near me I can't remember it precisely). They live much longer than regular humans (Aragorn dies at 192, the kings of old lived as long as 300 years, and are able to chose the moment of their death rather than waste into infirmity). They are different enough from normal humans as to be an almost different race entirely. I would place them equal to all elves save the Noldor, and only slightly less powerful that them. Perhaps +2 ST, +2TO, +1 EN, AG, and MA (they are much wiser than normal humans), 2 proficencies, and an additional skill packet of their chosing at 9 (they can learn anything they wish quite easily). They however are not gifted, so I would make their priority B with A as an option if the player wishes to play a Gifted member of the race, and move dwarves to C (Dwarves are an "accidental" race in Middle Earth, they were created without permission by one of the Valar, whereas the Elves and Men were planned by Iluvatar at the begining of time).

Also, regarding your elves. You should probably make an "Elf" skill packet that includes skills like crafting and music, as well as some woodsman skills, as all Elves are wonderously talented in all things artistic (it was actually Elves who taught the Dwarves of old how to work metal and stone, but the dwarves quickly surpassed them in technique and knowledge). They should all start with the minor "Beauty of Ages" gift, as all Elves are beautiful creatures who closly follow the Valar in image. Exceptionally beautiful elves (like Arawen and Luthien) are the most attractive creatures to walk Middle Earth since the eldar days.

That's about all I can think of off the top of my head, I'm re-reading the Silmarillion now but can't actually pull any mroe details out without going to get it (like exactly which of the Valar created the Dwarves, I think it was Aule but I'm not sure) I'm sure the other Tolkien experts here can add more.

There arent any dunedain "real" kingdoms anymore are there?
Most of the dunedain lives by them self like Aragon when he is Streider?

I thunk i will make them an A priority, im not fancying all that much magic.

bergh wrote: There arent any dunedain "real" kingdoms anymore are there?
Most of the dunedain lives by them self like Aragon when he is Streider?

I thunk i will make them an A priority, im not fancying all that much magic.

The reason Aragorn is unique is that his is descended from the pure blood of Numenor. As far as I am aware he is the only person left in middle earth who can make such a claim (though his descendents arguably could, Arawen being his cousin, technically).

Tash wrote: Both: "They shot well with the bow, for they were keen-eyed and sure at the mark. Not only with bows and arrows. If any Hobbit stooped for a stone, it was well to get quickly under cover, as all trespassing beast knew very well."

Tash wrote:
Edit: A question: are there any magic using humans besides the Wizards (Wizards being kinda-sorta human even though they were sent to Middle Earth by the Valar)?

And yet sorcery is practiced by Men throughout Middle-earth: the nine Men who accepted Rings of Power from Sauron (only three of whom were Numenoreans) "became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerors, and warriors of old" before they finally succumbed to the Rings and faded; the hill-men who seized control of Rhudaur (or the evil Men the Witch-king sent to replace them) appear to have practiced sorcery; and the Mouth of Sauron was a sorceror (although he was a Numenorean).

The sorcery of Men must be diverse. Tolkien speaks of Men attempting to communicate with Elvish spirits. When the Elves faded their bodies vanished. Those who were so enamored of Middle-earth they would rather fade than sail over Sea were likely to become "haunts", spirits dwelling in or near a favorite place. If discovered by Men they might respond to certain sorcerous stimuli, but they were perilous for Men to deal with. The spirits might seek to occupy the bodies of the Men and eject the native spirits, which were weaker by nature or youthfulness. Such acts might not be so much derived of malice as of desperation. Elves were as desperate to live in Middle-earth as Men, but they like Men had a doom which limited their time in Biological Life.

Other sorceries Men might practice included the control of animals. Beruthiel, wife of Tarannon Falastur, was originally a Black Numenorean princess. She learned the arts of sorcery from her people and practiced them in Gondor. Her cats were legendary for their devotion to their mistress and her uses of them to spy upon the people of the realm. Tarannon lived in a great house by the Sea at Pelargir, but Beruthiel preferred to live in a house on the great bridge of Osgiliath. She filled the garden with twisted and mis-shapen trees and plants, and she so terrorized the Dunedain that Tarannon was eventually forced to remove her forcibly and send her into exile. She was last seen sailing alone on a ship southwards past Umbar, accompanied only by her cats, one at the prow and one at the stern.

I'd be careful citing Martinez blindly,the guy is a minefield.

Here's some of Tolkien's own ideas on the issue of magic:

http://www.users.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/lttr155.htm

I'd have go with Irmo on this as well, I don't know anything about the author of that article, but I have read a fair bit of both Toliken's actual literature as well as his biogrophy and many notes, excerpts etc. I'm wracking my brain right now for a single example of a character in any of Tolkien's work actually "casting" a spell, and I'm not finding one. Magic in middle earth, to the best I can determine, seems almost entirely focused on the creation or use of powerful items (the rings of power, the Silmarils, etc.). Even the wizards seem dependent on items (recall that once Saurman's staff is broken he becomes powerless, magically speaking anyway).

Then there are the various references to songs with magical results. But that gets even more complicated.

Tash wrote: I'd have go with Irmo on this as well, I don't know anything about the author of that article, but I have read a fair bit of both Toliken's actual literature as well as his biogrophy and many notes, excerpts etc. I'm wracking my brain right now for a single example of a character in any of Tolkien's work actually "casting" a spell, and I'm not finding one. Magic in middle earth, to the best I can determine, seems almost entirely focused on the creation or use of powerful items (the rings of power, the Silmarils, etc.). Even the wizards seem dependent on items (recall that once Saurman's staff is broken he becomes powerless, magically speaking anyway).

Then there are the various references to songs with magical results. But that gets even more complicated.

I'd assumed in all those cases that some kind of powerful item was used. Gandalf actually poseses one of the rings of power (the 3rd Elven ring, given to him by Cidran the Shipwright when he arived in Middle Earth) and this, combined with his Wizard staff I'd always belived were the sources of his magic. His true ability and power lies in his great wisdom and knowledge of how to make use of such unearthly forces. Recall that in actual combat he relies entirely on Glamdring (which is itself magical, and once belonged to the King of Gondolin, Turgon), with great effect.
As for the mouth of Sauron I assumed he was simply given something like the one ring as a reward/leash by his master, and that acounted for his extended life. Either that or he was undead, like the Wringwraiths, but still corporeal(Sauron having been refered to as a necromancer, stands to reason that he could have raised a fallen human as a servant. Actually I read a rather good piece of fanfic once that was based on the premise that TMoS was actually Isildur). Also note that Sauron's magic is by no means normal, he is a creation of, and former servant to, Melkor, aka Morgoth, the great enemy of the Valar (essentially the Satan character of Middle Earth, he is the second greatest, after Manwe, of all the Valar, but fell to darkness because of pride and his lust to dominate all things). Sauron is described as equal to him in both power and cruelty.

Those are just my interpretations though.

One other example of "Magic" in Middle Earth are the songs of the Valinor and Elves (especially the Noldor) which are described in many places as accomplishing magical feats (such as imparting the memory and knowledge of Valinor, and much fo theknowledge of the Noldor, to the first men as they slept).

Spell casting in Tolkiens works

Tinuviel puts Morgoth and guests in his hall to sleep with a song.
Gondolin is hidden in a magical way
The enchantment on the woods of Doriath that does not allow hostile types to enter -Melian
Tinuviel makes Beren and her and Beren appear to be a vampire and a werewolf.
Glorfindel or Elrong releases the flood that carries of the black riders
Gandalf's fire works in the shire, lightning (or other pyrotechnics) used against the nazgul on weathertop, fire against the wargs
Finrod Felagund gives his force when travelling the appearance of orcs

Just a few off the top of my head.

Tolklien also gives perhaps magical but different types of abilities to those wise and powerful, mostly among the noldor.
Galadriel seems to be able to read minds of lesser folk, Gil Galad was able to see through Saurons disguise.
On other thing the noldor had - Finrod "drwe forth his power" to burst his bonds and kill a werewolf in hand to hand (or fist to bite) combat. The way it reads is that Finrod enhanced his abilities in some fashion for this task, could also be looked at perhaps as SA's (though the Noldor seemed to be able to access these SA's more effectively than others).

Irmo wrote: I'd be careful citing Martinez blindly,the guy is a minefield.

Here's some of Tolkien's own ideas on the issue of magic:

http://www.users.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/lttr155.htm

Aragorn's `healing' might be regarded as `magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and `hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A.(ragorn) is not a pure `Man', but at long remove one of the `children of Luthien'. "

bergh wrote:
How much better are a Dunedain vs a normal human? share your LoTR knowledge!

It almost seems like the only way to do it within the TROS system would be to require people to have a certain amount of insight before they can play one of these race options so they can start with the kind of priorities they need, like AABBCD.

Im making Elves A priority!

yes they are better but then again. im not a rule-slave GM, and I will only allow players to be elves, if they can play elves.

The priority system, has many flaws, and few merits, but its easy.

The insight system is weird, ok! it helps new characters, but it also seem to me to be a "oh my character died, now i will make a new one and thrown away, becouse there are unlimited credit when using insight system."

Making elves AA is a good thing, but then some bad players will just kill there character when he got enough insight and then make an elf character, i think its better to start let them be elves.

"oh my character died, now i will make a new one and thrown away, becouse there are unlimited credit when using insight system."

yes some players can maybe see the insight as a way to, not make a new fresh character. we have discussed the insight idea in my group, and I (the gm), has decided NOT to use it as per standard.

ie. you get to make a better character when you character die (better then newbe), becouse of insight points, this is fine when playing with good roleplayers.

BUT one of a the persons in my RPG club, who was looking in the book (he is not a player on my team), commented that this system was great becouse then if you died, you would make a new character as powerfull as to old one.

This guy play ultra hack and slash, he does not even gives his characters a name (yes DnD). and he is the kind of persons who don't understand the meaning with table-and-paper rpg, and should instead play Diable on his computer.

What im trying to say, is that maybe players wish to "misuse" the insight system by not taking death as serious, becouse you get to make a character as good as the old one.
ie. the same idea when a character dies in a level system, some GM's let there players make a new character at the same level as the old one.

You could always appy 1/2 insight to the new character as a rule for the hack & slash crowd.

Some plusses for a good character, but not enough to make dying desirable.

i have decided to make the insight function as a guide line, nothing else.

i have no problems in giving players a new character on same "power" level as the other players, often the good players refuse, and only wanna recieve some of the bonus, mostly so they can make there "new concept idea" perfect, and still have some to fight for.

but those hack and slash players should hopefully not even apply for my team, the usualy think they are to boring, its not every session there are a character vs evil-bad-guy-like-orcs-or-worse-all-sides-geared-up-for-battle scene.
fighting large groups of orcs and such things should be something that should take the breath out of the players, and make them sweat a little!
hehe, a little side history this has ended in......

anyway make a comment about my hobbit for TROS thread...that would make me happy.

From what I've read and seen of Tolkien elves, their main weakness is psychological rather than in their temporal stats which should be appropriately impressive. The elves have perhaps the least to lose in letting Middle Earth be destroyed by the hordes of Mordor, why is this? Because an elf can always choose to hop abroad one of the Grey ships and go into the West to live forever!

The Riddle for an Tolkien Elf is not as much 'what am I prepared to die for?' than 'why should I have to die at all?'!

Thus my downer for Elf characters in Tolkien would be on their SAs, as the Elves (at least while they stay Elves) can never truly be as committed as those races who have their mortality on the line.

To do this I would have all Elf characters have the major flaw 'Tormented' as a default. Consider being an immortal being trying to convince themselves into being a hero and possibly dying (something their race knows little of) when the alternative of doing nothing would mean they remain immortal and prosper. The other thing to represent I would suggest is that all Elven characters must take the destiny 'retreat into the west' amongst their SAs. If the Elf ever chooses to drop this SA, they cease being a Elf and loose all Elven abilities (and flaws) attached, becoming one of higher human races instead (with the exception of Istari, Elves who abandon their Elvishness should NOT be allowed to join the White Council!). An elf is allowed to take a second destiny, however this is almost inevitably going to come into conflict with the 'retreat into the West' destiny sooner or later.

IE- Arwen should have destiny 'Marry Aragorn and become Queen of Gondor' alongside 'Retreat into the West'. As we all know these two do come into conflict...

Andrew.....that's GREAT viewing on it! Those idea's of how elves think, can make an start on an great campaign, and give an elf player ALOT of good rpg, instead of just using his super-stats to out "hack-and-slash" the human warriors.

Im using your idea, down to the last letter....fixes SA for elves is not a bad idea.

Andrew Mure wrote: From what I've read and seen of Tolkien elves, their main weakness is psychological rather than in their temporal stats which should be appropriately impressive. The elves have perhaps the least to lose in letting Middle Earth be destroyed by the hordes of Mordor, why is this? Because an elf can always choose to hop abroad one of the Grey ships and go into the West to live forever!

The Riddle for an Tolkien Elf is not as much 'what am I prepared to die for?' than 'why should I have to die at all?'!

Thus my downer for Elf characters in Tolkien would be on their SAs, as the Elves (at least while they stay Elves) can never truly be as committed as those races who have their mortality on the line.

hmm, im not at all a tolkien academic, so what is right and wrong i can deam. But like the idea, that elves think very different from men, men whats power, money and pretty woman's in there beds.

Elves wants something more, they have a whole other idea of fate and destiny. So elves having a very specific "task" to do, can be a great way for some good roleplaying, and also be a VERY big problem when roleplaying in a group.

Generaly i see elves as a veteran players choise....

Turin wrote: Spell casting in Tolkiens works

Tinuviel puts Morgoth and guests in his hall to sleep with a song.
Gondolin is hidden in a magical way
The enchantment on the woods of Doriath that does not allow hostile types to enter -Melian
Tinuviel makes Beren and her and Beren appear to be a vampire and a werewolf.
Glorfindel or Elrong releases the flood that carries of the black riders
Gandalf's fire works in the shire, lightning (or other pyrotechnics) used against the nazgul on weathertop, fire against the wargs
Finrod Felagund gives his force when travelling the appearance of orcs

The Noldor were heavily bound by fate. Fingolfin might have had a die by the hands of Morgoth, Fingon by Sauron, Gil Galad by Sauron, etc.

Tash - The fall of Gondolin (lost tales, I believe) went into the city of Gondolin in much more depth. It was magically hidden to some extent, Tuor I believe only found it due to Ulmo letting him (If I remember correctly, the hiding was helped by Ulmo, I'm not sure if any others were involved. The hiding seemed to be somewhat magical as well as physical, but not to the extent of making it invisible - more in the confusing of the searchers).

Turin wrote: The Noldor were heavily bound by fate. Fingolfin might have had a die by the hands of Morgoth, Fingon by Sauron, Gil Galad by Sauron, etc.

Tash - The fall of Gondolin (lost tales, I believe) went into the city of Gondolin in much more depth. It was magically hidden to some extent, Tuor I believe only found it due to Ulmo letting him (If I remember correctly, the hiding was helped by Ulmo, I'm not sure if any others were involved. The hiding seemed to be somewhat magical as well as physical, but not to the extent of making it invisible - more in the confusing of the searchers).

The description of Gondolin in The Silmarillion is much more mundane, it really seems to be hidding only in a physical sense, though there might be some magic involved that is implied (such as Galdriel's ring protecting and hiding Lothlorien).

As always attempts to make connections across various works in the Tolkien pantheon are tenuous at best due to the highly inconsistent nature of the stories.

Also note that Sauron's magic is by no means normal, he is a creation of, and former servant to, Melkor, aka Morgoth, the great enemy of the Valar (essentially the Satan character of Middle Earth, he is the second greatest, after Manwe, of all the Valar, but fell to darkness because of pride and his lust to dominate all things). Sauron is described as equal to him in both power and cruelty.

Irmo wrote:

Ouch, careful there. That story is one of THE OLDEST stories Tolkien wrote. Putting it into the context of the Silmarillion is highly dangerous, given the scores of changes Tolkien made to his world

ahhh Tolkien Geeks in their natural environment :)

Mike Holmes wrote: He's undoubtedly a powerful Maiar, but on the same power scale as Ungoliant (mother of Shelob), Gothmog and the rest of the Balrogs, and the Istari. In fact some have speculated that it was Mithrandir (Gandalf) who slew Gothmog in the first age. Hence Gandalf's fear of the Balrog of Moria. All these creatures are of the same general magnitude of power, one level lower than Melkor, Manwe, and the rest of the Ainur.

I go over this all the time.

What makes Sauron seem so much more of an ass-kicker than, say, Gandalf, despite they being the same type of creature, essentially, is that Sauron has made the same mistake that his master Melkor did. He invested himself in Middle Earth, leaving his westerly heritage behind for the most part. This makes him powerful in mortal matters, but it's representative of his corruption, and results in his downfall. To be precise, he invests everything in The One Ring, linking it to Celebrimor's 19 others. Just as Melkor's downfall is the Silmarils (the Iron Crown, also a "ring") and just as Saruman invests in the "ring" of Isengard.

The themes are unmistakable. Who are the most powerful elves? Those that remember the west best - but they're also the ones who must return there soonest. Gandalf is more powerful than Sauron in the end because his motives are pure, and he doesn't sully himself with Middle Earth. The moment he's done with his quest (well, relative to the length of his stay), he returns West.

I think that quite a bit of the search for overt magic in ME is the result of trying to get RPGs about it to match D&D magic. Which I think is problematic to say the least. It is possible to argue that all magic in Middle Earth comes driectly from either the elves or from other beings from the West.

It's very possible that the nazgul were once men with elven blood, and the mouth of Sauron too. If they were kings, and likely Numenorean, then they certainly did.

Mike

Tash wrote:

I also agree that the Nazgul would have to be of the line of Numenor. Sauron wanted to create servants of great might, so handing out rings to "lesser" men wouldn't make much sense. As with Melkor's creation of the orcs out of the fairest of Middle Earth creatures (the Eldar), Sauron created the ringwraiths by corrupting the best and most powerful of men, which would logically have Numenorean blood.

But was the "Shadow of the East" actually his name or was it a title he assumed after becoming on of the Nine? Even assuming he was from the east, that doesn't preclude the possibility of some of the other Nazgul having the blood of numenor.

Necromancy does seem to be a pretty set concept, probably involving the use of fallen souls to do evil deeds. Saruman weilds magic for evil reasons yet is not called a Necromancer.

However I just read the section of The Silmarillion which discusses the time between The Hobbit and LoTR. While you are correct that the identity of the Necromancer was not know for a time, it seems to me from that section that the White Council thought it was either Sauron himself, or one of the Nazgul. That would suggest that Necromancy can be learned by non-Maiar, but only with help of a being of Maiar like power.

While at this points its probably a futile attempt, I was thining about something remotely tying all this into Riddle of Steel once again: how about the power of magic weilded in song? There are multiple references to songs having great power in Middle Earth. This is one of the coolest concepts in all of Tolkien's mythology for me. My theory (colored by the fact that I am a musician and composer, and hence belive music to the single greatest development of the human mind) is that, because the entire universe was created as a song, one can alter the harmony of the universe itself by singing the right song at the right moment.

Thinking of a way to integrate this with Riddle: All songs to be created that functioned as a kind of "uber formalized" spell. The caster would receive the same bonuses as when casting a ritual spell, except they would have to roll a musical instrument check when casting to assure that the song/spell would cast correctly. Prior to singing the character would allocate dice from their SP for the magic component of the song, and as long as the skill check was successful the spell would not only cast, but each success in the singing skill check would become and automatic success on the aging rolll. Additional SP dice could be rolled to resist aging further if desired.

Thoughts on how this would work?

I think the East in question was Angmar - East of the falled Arnor. That is, the Dunedain that he caused the downfall of personally would have looked to the east and seen him as a shadow there. Worse, there seems to be some potenntial confusion with Unfinished Tales where Khamul is listed as "the Easterling" (which is pretty clear), but as the witch-king's second in command. That is, not the same nazgul.

In any case, the ICE guys went with the interpretation that this meant that he was from "off map" too, and made up names for the rest of the wraiths, and gave them backgrounds. Going with the Unfinished Tales version, the Witch-king became Murazor, and Khamul the Easterling was his second in command. Again, this seems to me to be a D&Dification of the whole thing to fit MERP. I mean, you've got Spell Law, with all it's D&Dish spells, and you're trying to fit the system to Middle Earth...of course you're going to look for any indication that magic is more common than Tolkien made explicitly clear that it was.

On the other hand, there is the statement that the nazgul were from many lands of Middle Earth. But that same statment is also ambiguous as to what they were: were they all kings and sorcerers? Or were they a group composed of kings and sorcerers? It seems rather likely that some of the kings of numenor at least ended up as wraiths - they were originally corrupted by Sauron after they captured him. And I think that I've heard other tales of Numenoreans weilding sorcery. So these could have been the sorcerers in question, while the other potentially non-Numenorean blooded kings were just kings and had no magic.

I think that we can't underestimate ICE's handling of the property in setting expectations of it. And note that I'm not against any such interpretation, either - I think it works just fine that way. I just think that there are other interpretations that are at least as close to "pure" Tolkien that are worth looking at.

On the subject of the title The Necromancer, I think that given the hundreds of years over which this persona of Sauron's became known, that the title could have developed solely to refer to him. Indeed we can only be sure that this is what he's refered to near the end of the third age. It may just not have existed as a term before sauron took up residence at Dol Goldur. Or maybe not, who knows?

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: I think the East in question was Angmar - East of the falled Arnor. That is, the Dunedain that he caused the downfall of personally would have looked to the east and seen him as a shadow there. Worse, there seems to be some potenntial confusion with Unfinished Tales where Khamul is listed as "the Easterling" (which is pretty clear), but as the witch-king's second in command. That is, not the same nazgul.

On the other hand, there is the statement that the nazgul were from many lands of Middle Earth. But that same statment is also ambiguous as to what they were: were they all kings and sorcerers? Or were they a group composed of kings and sorcerers? It seems rather likely that some of the kings of numenor at least ended up as wraiths - they were originally corrupted by Sauron after they captured him. And I think that I've heard other tales of Numenoreans weilding sorcery. So these could have been the sorcerers in question, while the other potentially non-Numenorean blooded kings were just kings and had no magic.

I think that we can't underestimate ICE's handling of the property in setting expectations of it. And note that I'm not against any such interpretation, either - I think it works just fine that way. I just think that there are other interpretations that are at least as close to "pure" Tolkien that are worth looking at.

On the subject of the title The Necromancer, I think that given the hundreds of years over which this persona of Sauron's became known, that the title could have developed solely to refer to him. Indeed we can only be sure that this is what he's refered to near the end of the third age. It may just not have existed as a term before sauron took up residence at Dol Goldur. Or maybe not, who knows?

Also cf the alternate designation "the Black Easterling" for the second-in-command of the Nazgul.

Also, someone pointed out to me that somewhere in Akallabeth, it was stated that three of the Nazgul were Numenorean lords. Which makes it pretty definite that the others at least weren't lords, but more probably were not numenorean.

Irmo wrote: Also cf the alternate designation "the Black Easterling" for the second-in-command of the Nazgul.

Also, someone pointed out to me that somewhere in Akallabeth, it was stated that three of the Nazgul were Numenorean lords. Which makes it pretty definite that the others at least weren't lords, but more probably were not numenorean.

As the Tolkien geek I am, I was reading the Silmarillion and just had to post this:

In regards to being Gondolin being magicaly hidden, In the chapter where Finrod and Turgon are looking to see where to place their fortresses/Cities, Ulmo came to them in a dream, and told Turgon where to establish Gondolin. Ulmo also said that he would make it impossible for anyone to find Gondolin without Turgon's permission. It seems this is similar to the "girdle" of Melian. Ulmo also later tells Turgon (I forget how) that the water of the Sirion are being dispoiled by Morgoth, and his strength is falling away from these areas. I believe this was a warning to Turgon about Gondolin being found.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but Bergh have you considered looking at the Burning Wheel mechanics for elven Grief? I haven't had a chance to read the whole set yet, but I've been told that the system models Tolkien Elves better than anything else out there.

Burning wheel? please tell me more about this!

Well their forums can be found at either www.burningwheel.org or right here at the Forge on the indie game forums.

From what I can tell Grief is a mechanic given to elves. Certain actions or events increase an elf's Grief and once it hits a certain number they either "pass on" or journey to the West. I myself haven't tried it out in play but I've heard great things about it from those who have. Coupled with the compulsory Destiny SA I would say that you can nail Tolkien elves very well in TRoS and open up some intense roleplaying chances as well.

what action or events are we talking about?

Being forced to kill, watching a friend die, having a place of pristine beauty destroyed etc.

When grief occurs you can sing a lament and thus ease some of the grief (take fewer points) which is a wonderful mechanic to capture all of those annoying elf songs Tolkien scattered throughout the books

how would you put this into conjunction with SA's?

I'd make it it's own seperate stat personally. One unique to elves. Combine WP and HT or EN and there is the threshold for an elf's Grief. It uses both mental and physical stats to emulate both the heart-ache suffered and the physical torment of being an elf. You'd need to come up with a mechanic for Songs of Lament though.

MonkeyWrench wrote: I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but Bergh have you considered looking at the Burning Wheel mechanics for elven Grief? I haven't had a chance to read the whole set yet, but I've been told that the system models Tolkien Elves better than anything else out there.

Well Tolkien's elves do kinda whine a lot :)

Irmo wrote: I've heard about it, but have so far failed to see how it is supposed to relate to Tolkien's Elves

MOnkey'wrench, i like the Grief idea thing....think i will think about it, and how i can use it

SO far this is what the elves in my system gets:
And its ofcourse a A priority, but please don't judge them after the "normal" TRoS races. i have my own dwarf rules, see my TRoS page.

ELVES
Sindar – Grey Elves: +2 Ag, +2 Per, +1 Soc, +1 En, +1 WP.

Silvan - Wood Elves. +2 Per, +2 Ag, +1 Wits. +1 WP. Woodsman/Ranger skill packet at 9

Non Genre specific.

Wild/Barbarian Elf.
+2 Per, +1 Ag, +2 Wit, -1 social, +1 En, +1 WP. Woodman/ranger skill packet at 9.


anyway now i need to have this Grief SA or something build in, and i like the "culture destroyed" thing, but i think i better point my elves in a "non-tolkien" way, so that i can use these elves rules in somewhat "changed Middle Earth" setting, where elves not are leaving as fast as they can.

Maybe each elf should have something *special* he cares about, and generaly this is what controls his life and what he do! this sound ALOT like normal SA, yes it is!, but for the elf it should be ENHANCED in effect.
This should be somehow work as a little "balance" to there many stat bonuses, more like an roleplayed "flaw" then anything else.

My problem is now that how i will implant that elves just have a total other view of life, so that there *special* should really domminate there "roleplay".? hope you understand what i mean?

MonkeyWrench wrote:

Irmo wrote: I've heard about it, but have so far failed to see how it is supposed to relate to Tolkien's Elves

Because Tolkien elves lament the loss of their culture and their way of life. Because everything about the elves is about preservation and when that changes they feel it. They're tied into Middle Earth more than any other race and there should be a mechanic to emulate that, hence Grief.

Irmo-

I guess it just comes down to different interpretations. I was always under the impression that the rings of power, specifically the ones created by Elves for Elves, were to be used to preserve their culture and way of life - to keep things from changing as it were.


In Burning Wheel the mechanic isn't used to dictate emotion, but rather used to emulate the weight of an uncaring world on a people that not only live forever but are also directly invested in that world. On the surface immortality may look like nice, but when you have to watch everything change around you while you remain constant I can see how that could get someone down.

MonkeyWrench wrote: Irmo-

I guess it just comes down to different interpretations. I was always under the impression that the rings of power, specifically the ones created by Elves for Elves, were to be used to preserve their culture and way of life - to keep things from changing as it were.

Sorry that last paragraph on my previous post was meant to be an entirely new one.


I'm not going to argue about it. All I know is that a great number of people feel that the Grief mechanic in Burning Wheel helps to create the right 'mood' for Tolkien Elves and since Bergh was looking for suggestions on how to capture that mood or feel I figured he'd like to know.

Yes thanks monkeyWrench, it has been very helpfull, it have given me a whole new set of idea.!

I have finished my idea's based on what have written to me.

here it is:
--------------------------
ELVES
Sindar – Grey Elves: +2 Ag, +2 Per, +1 Soc, +1 En, +1 WP.

Silvan - Wood Elves. +2 Per, +2 Ag, +1 Wits. +1 WP. Woodsman/Ranger skill packet at 9

Non Genre specific.

Wild/Barbarian Elf.
+2 Per, +1 Ag, +2 Wit, -1 social, +1 En, +1 WP. Woodman/ranger skill packet at 9.

LIFE PATH:

An elf is immortal when compared to mortal men - their minds age as opposed to their bodies - but it still differs from elf to elf. Every elf has a life path, and when their life path reaches 10, the elf has grown tired of life and prepares to die, finding a place and time where he can die peacefully in
his sleep.

Most elves are afraid to reach this level of conscience, and generally try to avoid it as much as they can. They inevitably reach it, however, by fulfilling their destiny. Whether by achieving that which is their fate or by failing, every elf will eventually attain the highest level of their Life Path.

All elves should take their SAs even more seriously than other players, because if a SA ever reaches 0 - for example, when you go directly against a SA, by, say, letting the friends you are sworn to protect die - then that elf's life path will increase by one. Generally an elf not following his SAs risks the rising of his life path.

Even things an elf is powerless to prevent can raise his life path. For example, if all his loved ones die in the elf's absence and he might have done something about this had he not left, that elf's life path may rise.

Good things too may raise an elf's Life Path. For example, an elf that has achieved his SA to become King of all elves has achieved (part of) his Destiny, and thus his Life Path increases. Every time thereafter that he makes great progress, improving the lives of his people greatly, his life path may increase again, until it reaches 10 and the elf’s role in this world is at an end. If he reaches 10 in his life path by successfully ruling his people for several thousand of years, you can say his life was an success. If he reached 10 through an unwise kingship that provoked catastrophe upon disaster so his people were almost destroyed, then his life was an utter failure.

In a few cases a Life Path can be lowered, for example when an elf manages to negate a disastrous event that caused his life path to increase. This should be an exception and should only happen when an elf has done a great thing indeed.

here it is in a nice PDF with pictures and all.

www.fflr.dk/tabletop/TROS/Elves.pdf

dude
you put alot of work into your games thats for sure.
looks good by the way

glad that you liked it!

Anyway i like to share what i do, i don't need big credit for it, but i like people doing some critics, so i my self can be inspired to make it even better.

Right now my project list for TRoS stuff is:

Gnomes - taken from warhammer, cousins of the dwarfs.
Ogres - for those really nasty hack and slash players. i will promise to make them not to cartoonish as in warhammer. still don't know about this.

Im also making a highway road Inn map, maybe with some information about a generic Inn, becouse my players travel alot and sometimes half the sessions are happening in one.

Dunlendians/wildmen and half-orc warbands, these are put into the same file.

Anyway do anyone like the Life Path idea for elves?

bergh wrote:
Anyway do anyone like the Life Path idea for elves?

I agree. There is nothing stating that they "have" to die at the end of thier destiny. They simply have nothing else to do and so grow quite bored with the world, eventually passing from it entirely (in most cases).

Another not related idea would be to add a "Doom" to characters, essentially an anti-sa. Its something they are fated to do or experience that is by definition a bad thing. That could be closely tied with their life path causing them to "age" more quickly if they fail to twart it and are conquered by greif.

All in all quite a cool system. You should give them all singing as a skill too, because all elves are lovers of song and music.

If i wanted 100% tolkien, i had just used one of the idea in this thread, but i liked an elf who would be very close to tolkiens idea of passing to the west, but i wanted then to fit a more generic fantasy setting.