Topic: Coherent Sim Games?
Started by: Henri
Started on: 4/6/2004
Board: GNS Model Discussion
On 4/6/2004 at 1:52am, Henri wrote:
Coherent Sim Games?
When I look around at the Forge community games I see a lot of games that are intentionally coherently Naratavist (or Nar-facilitating, etc. etc.). There are also a few that are intentionally coherently Gamist. Can anyone think of some examples of good, coherent Sim design?
I would prefer Forge games, since that would mean that the designer is probably conciously aware of GNS theory, but I'm looking for all other games as well, indie and non-indie.
The three GNS articles give examples for each (under the diversity section). In the Sim article, Ron divides Sim games up into "Purist for System" and "High Concept." But it seems that a lot of incoherent games also get put into the "High Concept" category.
For Purist for System, Ron lists:
EABA, JAGS, SOL, Pocket Universe, and Fudge, GURPS, BRP (in its "unstripped" form), DC Heroes (now Blood of Heroes), Rolemaster, D6, and the Hero System.
There is a whole mess of High Concept ones, since it seems to be the most popular category by far for rpgs. It might look like I'm answering my own question, but I'm looking in particular for ones that people think are shining examples of coherent Sim design.
Thanks.
PS I'm interested in this question in its own right, but if we can nail down some examples of what a coherently sim game looks like, maybe it can help with some of the controversy about what Sim is.
On 4/6/2004 at 3:57am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
Hi Henri,
You might be interested in the Iron Chef game contest from last year (almost exactly a year ago) in Indie Design - some fantastic Sim ideas came from there, including Pace and Criminal Element.
I think the finest Purist for System game I've played is Pocket Universe, although EABA is very likely to give it a run for its money when I get a chance to play it. I swear I'll get to JAGS one of these days too, although I'm very poorly suited for running it.
Really solid High Concept Sim games include Dread and Pendragon. In fact, I suggest that reading Pendragon carefully should be on the list of any serious students of RPGs.
(Don't forget, those aren't the only Sim categories, either.)
Best,
Ron
On 4/6/2004 at 9:33am, Marco wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
Ron Edwards wrote: Hi Henri,
I swear I'll get to JAGS one of these days too, although I'm very poorly suited for running it.
Best,
Ron
If you wait until the years end there'll be JAGS-2. You may not be any better suited to run it--but it will take a lot less work to get into.
-Marco
On 4/6/2004 at 9:59pm, Henri wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
Thanks Ron. There are a couple of other categories, but they were way down the page.
Rules Light:
Theatrix, The Window, (what about White Wolf's MET?)
Setting-creation and universe-play:
Aria, Multiverser to some extent, and The Million Worlds.
Both of these seem to be much smaller categories however.
Oh, I took a look at Mongrel. It doesn't really seem playable at this stage, but I get the idea of where it is going.
On 4/7/2004 at 5:01am, Dev wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
Can anyone think of some examples of good, coherent Sim design?
I do think EABA is a lot sturdier than it looked on our one playthrough. I personally like its predecessor, CORPS. I'd have to read it through to see if it's 100% "coherent" in a GNSqe fashion, but it largely sticks to modeling a sort of unforgiving and "realistic" version of reality, give or take. (For realistic in this context, let's just say it's in my short list for powering a gritty low-power espionage/technothriller.) Indeed, when I first read it back in high school I didn't like it especially, in part because it was somewhat "unforgiving", and not like D&D.
I think Wushu can be considered coherent Sim. It's there for you to coreograph the best action movie ever, and is focused on doing so unapologetically.
On 4/10/2004 at 6:14pm, Dev wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
I think this is a related question: where can we go, Sim-wise, from here? What can we evolve to create a better Sim experience, or do we have any Cool Models about better Sim play?
On 4/10/2004 at 9:44pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
Hello,
That's a great question. Here are my answers, for what they're worth.
1. Better IIEE with in-game justification. The "freeze-frame" context for most Sim resolution simply has to go; I think that Mongrel's Action Point offers an innovation for at least one sort of Simulationist play (the most common one) that cleans that sort up considerably. And other methods toward the same end await development by more Sim-oriented people than me.
2. To go in a completely different direction (and frankly a very Pervy one) - mechanics that require Director and/or Author Stances toward setting elements and NPCs but not toward one's own player-character.
3. Mechanics-based feedback for the GM that makes his decision-making easier so that he can work with new material in-game rather than laboriously make up back-story, scene programming, clues, etc, etc, to be scheduled for every damn minute of play.
Lots of other ideas out there, I'm sure.
Best,
Ron
On 4/11/2004 at 9:14am, Seth L. Blumberg wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
Ron: Totally agree with you on #1 there, but I am at a loss as to what you mean by #2 and #3. Can you elucidate, please?
On 4/11/2004 at 3:12pm, ethan_greer wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
Marco wrote: If you wait until the years end there'll be JAGS-2. You may not be any better suited to run it--but it will take a lot less work to get into.
Marco, this news excites me, in case you needed any encouragement. :)
On 4/11/2004 at 3:31pm, ethan_greer wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
Ron Edwards wrote: 1. Better IIEE with in-game justification. The "freeze-frame" context for most Sim resolution simply has to go; I think that Mongrel's Action Point offers an innovation for at least one sort of Simulationist play (the most common one) that cleans that sort up considerably. And other methods toward the same end await development by more Sim-oriented people than me.
I will at this point shamelessly plug my own game, Thugs & Thieves, which borrows heavily from Sorcerer's conflict resolution system to generate flowing, cinematic pulp fantasy action.
2. To go in a completely different direction (and frankly a very Pervy one) - mechanics that require Director and/or Author Stances toward setting elements and NPCs but not toward one's own player-character.
Universalis and The Million Worlds both fall into this category in my opinion. People seem to think of Uni as a Nar game, but I've always seen it as very Sim. Maybe I'm just biased for Sim play.
3. Mechanics-based feedback for the GM that makes his decision-making easier so that he can work with new material in-game rather than laboriously make up back-story, scene programming, clues, etc, etc, to be scheduled for every damn minute of play.
Now that's a damn good idea. Seth, I think Ron's talking about in-game mechanics that basically alleviate the need for the typical gobs and gobs of prep typically required for a Sim game GM. How this can be done, I'm not sure at this point, but I'm going to be thinking about it.
On 4/11/2004 at 7:25pm, Landon Darkwood wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
ethan_greer wrote: Now that's a damn good idea. Seth, I think Ron's talking about in-game mechanics that basically alleviate the need for the typical gobs and gobs of prep typically required for a Sim game GM. How this can be done, I'm not sure at this point, but I'm going to be thinking about it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but would an example of this be something like random generation systems for plots, characters, settings, etc. in the game world - like, Lifepaths for adventures? Tables or charts where you can achieve a combination of elements for various game and/or adventure constructs that are appropriate to the setting and color? Alternately, tables which you could quickly consult for appropriate answers whenever a character seeks to discover something in the Sim that the GM's prep didn't account for?
Or am I totally thinking in the wrong direction?
-Landon Darkwood
On 4/11/2004 at 8:49pm, Dev wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
Ron Edwards wrote: 1. Better IIEE with in-game justification. The "freeze-frame" context for most Sim resolution simply has to go.
I think I mentioned this elsewhere, but my idea was to promote play that (as much as possible) happened in character, in real time (without needing OOC declaration or waiting for resolution). In particular, I feel that anime space battles would work for that, since heroes are always yelling out the names of their attacks and opponents as a matter of course. Sim doesn't mean pure Immersion necessarily (right?), but this sort of thing could help.
On 4/11/2004 at 9:45pm, John Kim wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
Dev wrote: I think I mentioned this elsewhere, but my idea was to promote play that (as much as possible) happened in character, in real time (without needing OOC declaration or waiting for resolution). In particular, I feel that anime space battles would work for that, since heroes are always yelling out the names of their attacks and opponents as a matter of course. Sim doesn't mean pure Immersion necessarily (right?), but this sort of thing could help.
I would point out that this is exactly the concept behind John Tynes' Puppetland. (cf. http://www.johntynes.com/rl_puppetland.html ) But really immersion isn't a part of GNS Simulationism as defined. In the definition, GNS Simulationism just means a focus on explored elements. So it seems to me that game designs like Universalis and The Pool would be fine vehicles for GNS Simulationist play, insofar as anything is.
On 4/12/2004 at 5:18am, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Coherent Sim Games?
ethan_greer wrote:Ron Edwards wrote: 3. Mechanics-based feedback for the GM that makes his decision-making easier so that he can work with new material in-game rather than laboriously make up back-story, scene programming, clues, etc, etc, to be scheduled for every damn minute of play.
Now that's a damn good idea. Seth, I think Ron's talking about in-game mechanics that basically alleviate the need for the typical gobs and gobs of prep typically required for a Sim game GM. How this can be done, I'm not sure at this point, but I'm going to be thinking about it.
One good plug deserves another. Multiverser uses the General Effects Roll in many ways, but often very much to this end. It's a bell curve that can be used to determine the nature of the in-game reality where information is not available, by telling the referee the degree to which things are as, as good as, or better than the player hopes versus being as, as bad as, or worse than he fears. It gives a very subjective sort of scaling to this which of course requires referee interpretation, but in doing so also makes it easier to apply to a wide variety of situations. Thus if the roll says "As good as expected" or "Not thwarting but generally unfavorable result" or "Beyond worst fears or nightmares", that easily gives the referee the mechanical authority to create details which fill the gaps in a way that is consistent with what is known and created by the referee, but in which referee prejudices are not the critical factor.
That might fit this idea.
--M. J. Young