I think one of the most important parts of designing a setting is to have a stable ecology. All the different parts of an environment contribute to the development of a society. That said, here is my quandary.

A high-fantasy society -- late 1600's level tech, no gunpowder -- exists in a dense temperate forest. Metal and arable land are rare, while lumber is obviously plentiful. Fresh water in the form of rivers; fish, and wild game are also available food sources. Clearings in the forest are rare, and most are used for settlements. Magical energy is abundant, but only trained magic-users can tap it. This environment is connected by means of magical gates to a modern 21st century society. However, only a few people are able of passing through the gates.

How can the fantasy society survive without metal or arable land? Goods such as flour or iron can be transported across the gates, but this process is inefficient at best. It seems to be that such a society would lend itself to be a magocracy, so maybe a magical solution is the key?

I have to say, the idea of a 17th century world that magically trades with a 21st century world is pretty cool. It seems to me that as you say the ecology you describe can't support the society, so there are three options: change the ecology, change the society, rely on trade with other world (and IMO the third is the coolest).

If trade is going to be the key to the ecology problem, then the economics of the trade are going to be crucial. What does the 17th century world get? Food and metal? That would mean that the 21st century society must have a surplus of these things. So if they have a surplus of food, presumable they don't have an overpopulation problem. What do they trade in exchange? The obvious answer to me is timber, since you said that there are a lot of forests, and a 21st century society is definately going to be starved for wood, since it has probably chopped down all of its forests.

This is going to go back to ecology. If the economy of the 17th century world is dependant on timber export, they are certainly not managing their forests sustainably. In a couple of generations those forests are going to be gone, replaced by... what? Wastelands? Farmlands? Urban areas?

Another thing that the modern world is probably starved for is oil, and since the 17th century world presumable hasn't tapped its own oil reserves, there is probably lots of easy oil lying around. But presumably they don't have the technology to extract it and sell it to the modern world.

I guess there must be some magical rule that says that you can't transport high-tech stuff from the 21st century world to the 17th century world, or else they would be giving them chain saws, etc. to better chop down the forests, not to mention geological technology.

Hopefully your knowledge of the history of technology is better than mine. I don't have a good sense of what was available in the late 17th century, but I'm pretty sure gunpowder was. So why is there no gunpowder? Another thing I have to wonder about is the philosophical / ideological state of your two worlds and the relationship between magic and technology. The late 17th century was well into the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment had begun. In our world, this meant a retreat from "magical" explanations of phenomena in favor of more empirical, scientific ones. But if your world is a magocracy, then what is going on here?

Also, does the 21st century world have mages? Who manages / controls the gate on the modern side?

A few questions:

1.) How big is the forest? Are metals and arable land just scarce, or really, really scarce?

2.) Why don't the people cut down some trees to make clearings? Particularly the rare magic-using types? Can't they spell away some trees? If they can, wouldn't they use that power to become powerful lords (I create the farmland, you do what I say)?

3.) How did they get to late 1600s tech level without plentiful metal, maritime trade, and gunpowder? Just as economies are improtant to cohesive setting design, so are logical technological advancements. Sounds to me like folks in the situation you describe are stuck in the dark ages 'till they get hold of some more steel and start cutting down the forest...

4.) How have the portals affected the society? Surely strange technological devices have made their way across? Including, maybe, chainsaws and gas, with which to cut down the trees?

That's enough to start off. I don't mean to be picky or anything, my point is just that a realistic economy needs other realistic things in place, and your high-concept doesn't jive well with realism as stated.

The basic idea is pretty cool (high fantasy meets the information age can be neat-o).

Hope to hear more...

I'm not at all certain what exactly you mean by arable land; I think you may be limiting your conception of food sources.

A dense temperate forest is going to have a lot of water in it; there will be bogs, rivers, lakes--these can be used for food sources, including rice paddies (a major staple of a large portion of the world's diet even today), fisheries, and more.

Presumably there is an edge to the forest somewhere; is it the ocean? Do they fish it? Do they gather shellfish, seaweed, and other food sources from the ocean?

Have they worked to encourage the growth of fruit and nut trees within the forest? Just because the whole place is a forest doesn't mean that no part of it is an orchard; a lot of food does grow on trees, you know.

Fowl can be raised in such conditions; also just as laplanders herd reindeer through the northlands, herds of deer could be tended through the forests, used for milk products and meat and leather goods.

Native Americans raised many crops in clearings in the forests; hunting and gathering was part of their culture, but they taught European settlers a number of things about agriculture that were unknown to them--including using fish as fertlizer to grow corn.

All of this means that your population is not focused on major population centers--very few cities can survive, and those that do are undoubtedly your trading ports (in this case with the future world). Most people are scattered pretty widely in low population density areas, raising what they can on the land and occaisionally hauling the surplus to market in the larger towns.

Hope that helps.

--M. J. Young

Hi Morrius, folks:

To throw my $0.02 into the mix:

How about waterwheels? Like, say, by the waterfalls or fast moving rivers near the trade centers. The forest folks can couple it to some sort of pulley and rail transport system ala Swiss Family Robinson.

I'm not entirely sure though if it fits your circa 1600 backdrop. It does however present an alternative to a magocracy set-up; this time by putting the engineers and craftsmen in the spotlight.

- W.

Hey Morrius,

I hope we didn't scare you away. I was really looking forward to hearing more about this concept.

I think an idea you have is that a 1600's society can't survive without flour/iron. But a low grain diet (think Archmagus Atkins), combined with armor / weaponry like fantasy Japan. would work, right? Bone shard weaponry is cool, too.

People are on a meat-heavy diet, and so there needs to be lots of game / fish. What do the game / fish eat? and so on build your ecology. How often do the villagers hunt? If you have "great forest beasts" that will feed a village for a month, then that's both a possible challenge, and an ecology solution. And as someone else said, food does grow on trees.

You have a great idea for a world. Really, I've found that the more choices you make, the easier it is to design the rest of the world around it.

Note that in the above "Forest Hunter" sort of society, I've said nothing of gender roles, religion, or standards of beauty, all which could change two societies in the same world to be something very different.

A high-fantasy society -- late 1600's level tech, no gunpowder -- exists in a dense temperate forest. Metal and arable land are rare, while lumber is obviously plentiful. Fresh water in the form of rivers; fish, and wild game are also available food sources. Clearings in the forest are rare, and most are used for settlements. Magical energy is abundant, but only trained magic-users can tap it. This environment is connected by means of magical gates to a modern 21st century society. However, only a few people are able of passing through the gates.

How can the fantasy society survive without metal or arable land? Goods such as flour or iron can be transported across the gates, but this process is inefficient at best. It seems to be that such a society would lend itself to be a magocracy, so maybe a magical solution is the key?

Wow. I knew that this place was great for coming up with brainstorms. Thanks very much guys.

Okay, let me clarify a few things. The world that the middle-ages society exist in is relatively rich in magic. Things operate on the principles of belief there. Modern technology (gunpowder & up) does not function. Modern items turn into either fantasy homologs (Polyester into cotton or linen, a flashlight into a latern, etc.) High-tech items such as cell phones or digital watches are destroyed by crossing over.

The 21st century world is our modern world, 2004 AD. While magic does exist, it takes practice and training to use magic in the modern world. Raw goods can be transported across gates, but the limit that can be brought across is one-fifth of the gate-walker's weight. Disbelief destroys magic such as gates, so it is very difficult to establish commerce around a gate. If too many non-believers fixate on the gate, it will disappear.

As far as the forest is concerned, the forest is the subconscious manifestation of the unknown. The tress can be cut down, but they will re-appear overnight. Clearings only form where people in the modern world feel safe and secure. And yes, it is possible to plant fruit-bearing trees to replace the onces that are cut down, so that's another food source.
So I guess that there can be enough open land to comfortably support agriculture, but the fantasy society would be a bit more dependant on hunting and gathering. Metal is scarce, but not completely unknown. Most of the metal is used for only essentials of life. Metal weapons are quite a bit harder to come by.

I hadn't even considered the possibily of rice paddies. Thanks! And yes, fishing is another viable source of food, since the forest does stop at the ocean. Game animals can comfotably subsist off of grass and small plants that would natually occur in a forest.

One more thing I want to include, since I'm on the topic of belief. Strong emotions in the modern world can create magical creatures in the fantasy world that embody those emotions (The two worlds are analogous). Unfortunately, negative emotion creatures are the predominant type. Such creatures are attracted to emotional energy, and prey on the people of the fantasy world. This is another thing that magic is useful for; fighting off the monsters.

Sorry if I didn't clarify the above points before. I think the take-home message to a world like this would be that such an environment would inhibit the formation of any major cities. The society that I would like to see would mostly be based in small villages. What do you think?

That clears up a lot, Morrius. It also makes me more eager to see what you come up with.

So the only outstanding issue that I can see is the technology level. From the way you describe it, it sounds like something dark age (ish) would fit the premise better. If the forest represents the unknown and insecurity, that jives well with a village-based fairly low tech European analog.

Jus' my opinion of course, but the societal concerns of a 17th century economy/technological/scientific level have a lot to do with things that don't seem to be present in your world. Is there a particular reason that you wanted to go the reformation period route?

To answer some of your original question (how could the society exist): Easy. As long as the habitations are fairly low concentration (villages), people can go a long way on plants that grow among the trees and livestock. Pigs are well suited to living among trees, and can sustain themselves on all manner of things that might grow naturally in there.

If realism is a big issue for you, you'll want to think about textiles as well. A lot can be done with tree and other plant fibers, but without lots of open space, sheep don't do very well. Wool is important because of its ease of processing relative to plant fiber.

You might want to do some reading about the native peoples of the pacific northwest, many of whom lived in the forest. These folks had ready access to the ocean, which is a difference, but some of their solutions might make sense for your world as well (for instance, they kept a special breed of dog for its wool-like hair).

Thanks for the feedback Jay. I'm not much of a historian myself, and your probably right that a late Dark Ages level of technology would make more sense. However, the crux of something like this would be that the fantasy society would be exposed to modern ideologies (democracy, nationalism, egalitarianism) and technological innovations via gate travelers. How do you think this would impact a fantasy-level society?

Morrius wrote: However, the crux of something like this would be that the fantasy society would be exposed to modern ideologies (democracy, nationalism, egalitarianism) and technological innovations via gate travelers. How do you think this would impact a fantasy-level society?

Forgive my saying so, but you'll want to take a look at Multiverser.

We dealt extensively with travel between worlds with different biases toward technology and magic, including in related universe situations (such as yours). The bias system (which is one of the gems of the game) will probably help you immensely in figuring out how to handle technology and magic in the crossover.

--M. J. Young

Morrius wrote: However, the crux of something like this would be that the fantasy society would be exposed to modern ideologies (democracy, nationalism, egalitarianism) and technological innovations via gate travelers. How do you think this would impact a fantasy-level society?

Well, neither society lives in a vacuum. Both have existed side by side for millenia. The fantasy society may be behind the times technologically, but both worlds do interact with each other. The fantasy world can be informed of events in the modern world by travelers. However, events in the fantasy world are not news, since most people in the modern world do not believe the existance of the fantasy world.

I'm inclined to believe that in a situation such as the one you've described, where both the fantasy world and the modern world have co-existed for milennia, then the modern world would be drastically different to how we percieve it today. It's kinda hard to disbelieve in something that is there to see with your own eyes, and even if they aren't seeing these portals in person, they still presumably know that this is where they get wood from.

Also, you mention that technology reverts when it passes through these gates, but what about information? Could a person from the modern side converse with a person from the fantasy side and describe to them the principles of neutonian physics? Or mathematics? Medicine? Metallurgy? How does information survive? I ask because even without metal, given the right knowledge the fantasy side would be able to advance very quickly and perhaps radically different to what we see in our own world.

You haven't explicitly stated what it is that the modern side is getting from its trades with the fantasy side. Is it wood? It can't be oil because the fantasy side lack the ability to mine oil. It can't be food or metals. Is it gems? I ask because as I understand our modern world right now, there really isn't enough of a shortage of anything yet for us to bother trading with people who offer what we already have. Perhaps the fantasy side could trade knowledge of magic in exchange for whatever it is that the fantasy side gets from the modern side?

But as I said, given modern emphasis on provable scientific method and the ease of information dissemination, many, many people would not only believe in this fantasy world, but would know it to be a fact of existence. Could you please explain how you envision "non-believers" fixating on gates to make them dissapear? How do you focus your disbelief of something on that thing? If you are focusing on it, you are acknowledging its existence, aren't you?

In reply to Jay: I agree that what Morrius is describing doesn't sound like late 17th century. In fact, Morrius descibed the world as medieval fantasy. It's impossible to put an exact date on historical trends like "the Renaissance," but it happened somewhere around the end of the 15th century, so by the late 17th century, the medieval period had been over for about two hundred years. Educated people had stopped believing in magic and were super optimistic about the power of science and technology. When I think of the 17th century, I think of Descartes (b. 1596, d. 1650) and John Locke (b. 1632, d. 1704). If you want an age of peasant villages and a strong belief in magic / distrust of science, you are really looking more towards the 12th - 14th centuries.

That said, this is a FANTASY world. There is absolutely no reason why its history must be consistent with ours at all! That would imply a deterministic view of history that I find quite impalatable. So by all means, create whatever you want and don't let real history constrain you!

Ravien: This is a very good point. Given that there is communication between these two worlds, there must be strong inertial forces supporting the belief systems of the two worlds or they would, over the years, have ben a lot more mixing and homoginization. It seems to me like it is more believable if the gates between the worlds are a new discovery. In this case, it makes sense that most inhabitants of both worlds are unaware of the existance of these gates. But if they have been around for a long time, it must be a very powerful conspiracy that keeps them secret, especially in the 21st century world, which presumably has the internet, news media, and other powerful forms of information dissemination.