From what I've seen on here while digging through archives for a day, its seems that prices for art vary quite a bit. I've seen quotes for full color covers from 100 USD dollars to 250-500 USD.

My point? I recently had an encounter with an artist in which I asked for artwork at 150-175 USD including only a front cover (less than 7x10'') and anything else he will spare. He cold shouldered me which was quite annoying. This has lead me to believe that this may be somewhat incorrect or dated prices.

And so to the question:

How much have you spent on cover art for your game and how much should GOOD cover art cost? Now I'm not talking WotC budget, but something one might see in the store, be drawn to by the art and say "hey that arts pretty good." and cause him or her to pick it up. Granted, it will be accented by a hardcover (hopefully after i see costs etc) and spot gloss...

How much have you spent on cover art for your game and how much should GOOD cover art cost?

There's nothing wrong with your $150-$175 range. You made him an honest business offer and he declined. That happens. And honestly, he did you a favor. The artist you want is the one who's excited about your project. He'll do his best work ever for you. Artists who accept because you've offered a hefty sum, or who grudgingly accept, but feel underpaid, might produce work that looks technically accomplished, but it will lack power. Instead of breaking the bank hiring an artist who's work excites you, find the best artist you can on your budget who's excited about your project.

Paul

Hmmm...

Thanks. It is helpful to know that is not an unreasonable price, and your advice is close to that someone gave me about 10 seconds before I posted this - meaning maybe i should listen more to him =-).

Yeah, I was caught up in agetting a 'good' artist instead of one that actually cared. The more it dwells in my head the more obvious it is how right you are. I honestly don't want 'good art' in teh first place, i want eye catching art. And i dont want art with no care put behind it - like someone just threw it down to get it over with and get his underpaid check.

Thanks for helping me see this,

-John

Prowl around places like Elfwood, even some 3D computer art sites. There are plenty of traditional artists there as well. Thats how I got artists for my CCG. I just made a post outlining the project, some links to material and said "I'm paying $40 flat rate on all artwork".
You wouldn't BELIEVE the responces I got, from some really good artists as well. Sadly, I couldn't use them all- I had like 10 pieces left at that point, which were quickly snatched up.

Ahh yeah I've been prowling around some sites, specifically gfxartist.com. Never thought of that though. Ive spent hours upon hours diffing throught heir art and never thought to let them bring it to me. Would help weed out those that don't particularly care or want a better price or what not as it would be all there in black and white.

Thanks, for your help and for everyones help. This site has been such a great resource for such a newbie like me in realizing my dream of getting my game in print.

There's a bunch of enthusiastic artists who posted to the NPA art thread, they all have reasonable rates and are actively looking for work from Indie guys:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10148

Definitely worth contacting a few of them.

I've also had good experiences with Cliff Kurowski, http://webpages.charter.net/squirefang/ , again good work and reasonable rates.

-Matt

From an artists perspective price also depends on the type of media they are using, which in turn affects the basic production cost in materials and time spent on the work. Covers done in oils tend to take longer than ones in acrylics for example, and thus are often priced higher to reflect the increased number of work hours involved. Style also has a part to play-artists that use a lot of visual complexity take longer over their work than ones that do not.
For many artists it thus becomes an issue of their working status-if they are a professional (trying to earn a living primarily from their artwork) they MUST charge for their time as well as materials. If your offered price does not cover this they will turn your offer down 9 times out of 10 (and if they dont they are doing you one hell of a favour!).
If they doing artwork as a hobby, or for occasional sales to supplement their 'real' job, then price is a reflection not of their time and materials but of your gratitude for their contribution and their desire to produce the art for you. It then becomes an issue of how much you both feel reflects this-and that can range from nothing at all upwards.
As a more personal example, when I was working in oils your suggested price range would not have got you much-quite simply I could not have afforded to do the work for you and would only have done it if I needed the publicity (and felt your peoject would get me other work) or if I really really loved what you were doing. Nowadays I work almost entirely with digital art (producing pretty much the same effect but at considerably lower cost and time input). An oil painting that would have taken me weeks or months to complete can have its equivalent produced in between four hours to a few days. This would mean that I would now take your price range more seriously, because it is more likely to reflect my own 'costs' as a professional artist.
When you approach artists to do work for you, it really helps to bear all this mind. Take a look at their style and the type of media they use, get an idea of what they are charging others and if they are creating art as a hobby or trying to make a living, and where possible offer to give them enough information about your project for them to see if it is something they would want to work on (because then you MIGHT get a lower price if they like it). Artists can be cranky, unpredictable and touchy about their work and its worth-but they can also be pragmatic business people, especially if you are approaching professional illustrators or designers.
Hope this all helps a bit!

That price is low for a cover. $400.00 is LOW for a cover. A good price for a cover STARTS around $600.00 for a professional quality cover.

A good cover can take 2 weeks... would you work for 2 weeks for $175.00?

A good digital cover can take a week, would you work for 1 week at $175.00? That is barely above minimum wage.

You are talking about sketches, one approved from that, then pencils, with approval of that... before you even get to color medium. That takes time. It is just that simple.

In traditional paint, every figure you add in adds about 6 hours on top of what is usually a 20 or 30 hour painting process. So a battle scene for $300.00 is inadequate.

I will not work for less than $400.00 a cover anymore. They are too important to put anything less than my best each and every time.

including only a front cover (less than 7x10'')

i want eye catching art. And i dont want art with no care put behind it - l

Hello,

Don't forget to check the Forge Resource Library for artists. Most of the people who've registered there have worked for publishers here, or have at least communicated with them, and so they understand the price range most Forge-ish authors are working from.

Also, I strongly suggest leasing the use of artwork, with no limitations whatsoever on the artist's control outside of your publication, rather than buying it.

Best,
Ron

Storn wrote:
I will not work for less than $400.00 a cover anymore. They are too important to put anything less than my best each and every time.

I'll back up what Storn mentions about payment and quality. Pros will be more expensive than not, but it is worth it, and it is only reasonable.

That said, many of the artists here, including myself, are willing to work within an indie author's budget -- because we're indie, too, and we know exactly how much cash is flowing around the scene. I've done covers for everything from $50 to $500.

Also keep in mind, you get a level of non-flakiness with professionals you won't find with hobbyist artists...I can't tell you how many projects I've seen or worked on where the artist is the one who kept delaying publication by not finishing on time, or simply vanished without a trace days before their deadline. One project I watched stall waited six months for their artist to get on the ball and finish the projects he had taken on for it.

Even so, do check out art sites and post about your project, and be up front about payment and deadlines. You will find artists who are excited enough about your project to contribute quality on the cheap, reliably.

Finally, regarding digital art and speed...I work almost solely in the digital medium. I don't know that it increases my output speed THAT much. The cover for "Sorcerer" took me 80 hours, including pre-sketches and drafts attempts; normally, I figure a good 40 hours is average work-time for me for a decent painting.

So, that's something else I should mention: different artists work at different speeds. I'm a slow artist. But I know guys who can whip out incredible work in a couple hours (I envy). This is why it is important to mention deadlines, if you have them, so possible artists can judge whether they can deliver for you in the given time.

Ron has a very good suggestion. For some reason, the RPG market is totally ver-klempt about leasing artwork...while the much more professional paperback and publishing industry does it ALL the time. I think it has something to do with often RPG start up Publishers want "their" characters and ideas portrayed. And the idea of letting them go and being used on a video game is scary.

But artwork is much cheaper if you let the artist keep the rights and you get 1st Time Publisher's right (I also put in a clause that allows for a free advertising, such as the cover in Dragon magazine is free...)

And it can backfire. My good friends at Hero/DOJ had a devil of a time and STILL CANNOT do certain characters and reprints due to the fact certain character illustrations are held by a cranky artist(s)... I actually do NOT know names or how many artists...but I do know the problem exists.

My advice, when doing a liscence artwork project, is to make it generic enough that it can find another home, so the artist gets a chance to make some more money off the hard work. Mking it likely that he/she will pick the project up. AND so you, yourself is protected if the artwork is used elsewhere.. that some core concept is not being illustrated on lunch boxes (extreme example, but it could happen...)

If you see a new game product with Brom, Elmore or Parkinson... it is likely that was a paperback book cover, or a video game cover... and that is 2nd Use Publishing.. So young game company X can afford it. Which ONLY works if the artist retains the rights to the work.

Storn,

About what price range can one expect if paying for 1st rights only or 2nd use from a professional artist?

The Burning Wheel is, IMO, one of the best looking roleplaying games I own and that includes the non-indie stuff. It has what I would call 'cover design' rather than 'cover art' - there's a logo and a good choice of fonts producing a subdued but stylish and classy look. The fact it comes in such a funky format (two digest sized books) only adds to this.

I would suggest good cover 'design' is probably cheaper than good cover art.

quozl wrote: Storn,

About what price range can one expect if paying for 1st rights only or 2nd use from a professional artist?

Copyrights are certainly an area that can sometimes be negotiated on (and if the artist is an amateur and doesnt understand copyright, you still should if you are paying for someones work, regardless of the level of professionalism of the artist, otherwise one day you could get a nasty legal suprise). Generally when you pay an artist to do work for you they retain all rights to the work as the originator unless you work out a contract that says differently (in which case you should also pay them more because it restricts what they can then do with that artwork later). You should always allow for the artist using any work they create for their own publicity. You may or may not make an agreement to retain the original yourself-the artist may want it back to exhibit or make prints from or to use in a book compiling their work at a later date.
When you commission a piece of work you thus really should know what you will use it for yourself, what the artist may or may not use it for, and reflect this in the price offered if at all possible. You may find an artist willing to work for less if they have their original returned and you make no claim on their own reproduction right for their work. Worth bearing in mind. Rons advice earlier is very,very sound.

When it comes down to the issue of the expense please remember two things-firstly any art you use for the cover will also probably double up as a substantial part of your advertising for the product. People spend a ton of ads because otherwise they get less sales. Unless people will be able to read your product before they buy they will probably judge if they will buy it or not as much by your cover as by anything else. Just looking around on somewhere like rpgnow you will see a lot of variety in quality of cover art-and many people will not want to pay much if anything for those which look substandard compared to the rest. Your future sales (if you intend to sell) may well depend on the cover-so the amount you are paying a cover artist should reflect this. Dont think-oh I cant afford to pay for fancy artwork-think can I afford NOT to pay for my advertising?

Secondly-dont underestimate the amount of experience and skill involved in producing that piece of artwork. Most artists have been learning their trade all their lives, many are professional trained and have art or design degrees which took them time and money to gain and taught them valuable skills others may not possess. People tend to treat artists rather casually on the basis that they believe it 'cant be all that hard'. If this is the case,more people would just do the art themselves... You may also find that their is a big gulf between pro and amateur artists in the areas of knowledge of repro process (where needed) and professional practice that may make a big difference when it comes to printing a cover.

Now, Im sure that neither I, nor any other artist posting here, means to 'rain on your parade', but the prices offered for art in the rpg industry as a whole are terrible. They effectively amount to the artist paying you for the joy of working for you in some cases (certainly if you rate work done on a cash per hour basis). ANY artist doing work for the rpg industry is probably doing it because they love rpgs. Get them exited about your game/product. Give them a copy when its done. Let them know how important to you their contribution has been. If you do manage to get a pro, thank your lucky stars that they really do believe in you and what you are doing (or that they are currently desperate to get their art out), but also treat those dedicated amateurs like the gems they are.

We artists are often very susceptible to a bit of flattery. It works wonders.

Storn wrote: ...and STILL CANNOT do certain characters and reprints due to the fact certain character illustrations are held by a cranky artist(s)...

I have also been wondering what good art costs. I am a firm believer that the art on the cover is perhaps the most important piece of the publication. It gets the passerby to stop and look. Thats probably better money spent in the long term than say Dragon magazine adds.

Just food for thought, I asked Michael Whelan who actually responded and politely gave me his contact agent. However he did say he is in the 10k range and is backed up on projects and I would have been required to wait perhaps a year or so.

I also sent an email to John Howe.. pretty much the same response. He was also very kind and forthcoming about his availability due to other work. Of course my tastes in art far exceed my pocket book. Even if I could afford their prices, the idea of dropping 7-10k on an oil for a RPG that may sell 1000-2000 copies is insane. Yet its always fun to know that even the big dogs would do the work given price. Both were very nice and it was just a pleasure in getting their attention via email.


Best

John

Matt: Thanks I'll check them out.

Peter Hollinghurst: The style and medium are most of what I'm actually looking for. I want a not as technically demanding (don't flame me, i realize this is wrong... but I'm using it - deal) style such as something with lots of emotion and movement and colors and less set "Group of different genres all together on one page"

Storn: I'm not looking for something traditional. I'm looking for something out of the norm especially stylistically.

This is what I mean by eyecatching - what most would consider sloppy unfinished art or 'easy'. Very non traditional.

Or more directly I dont want it to be catering to the publics wants. Now thats exactly what a book cover is supposed to do though right ? cater to the wants of the customer to try to suck them in - but I'm thinking of doing something crazy and doing the exact opposite. I guess we will see how it works out. Hopefully the completely different and odd cover will draw enough attention.
(I found a great example of this last night and I'll post it once I re-find it.)

Ron Edwards: Thanks, Yeah I saw this on other posts and took your wise suggestion when I was posting my price on other sites. Thanks.

To most so far: Yeah, I think the best idea is to find someone who cares about the project. Which will be great once I release both the playtest files and the free download lite rules as I hope they will help build a community around it which hopefully will contain some artists =-D.

greyorm: yeah, what I really need is an indie who cares about the project.

Time though is not an issue. Really I'm getting a heads up on things and getting art while working on other matters. This is mostly because I've heard horror stories about artists not meeting hard deadlines. I do mention the deadlines in the post though. Thanks.

strom: this is exactly the kind of thing i want to do.

jack aidley: I am actually quite decent at design- at least well enough to do a cover. I really want art though rather than design. Really just a preference that may or may not change after dealling with this for another month. =-).

Storn:
"...1st Rights ONLY is about 60% of the costs I quoted in earlier posts. "
Thats what I'm hoping for with this price. so that makes my 175 about 291 which is slightly more reasonable I hope.

Peter Hollinghurst: Yeah, I'm familiar with copyright from other endeavors. I am also very wary in dealling with them. Sound advise.

As per thinking art is easy to make, I know its not true. My father actually does oil paints, or at least he did las time I saw him. Painted for most his life and still was working on it. Would take months for him to finish a piece....

Mourglin: Interesting to see what the real stuff costs. Thanks



Wow this was an amazing response. I came home expecting at most 5 responses more and I got an encylopedia of knowledge. Never ceases to amaze me how willing this community is to help.

Thanks.

As for more information on what I want stylistically - the game is carefree and fun and made for quick games. I don't want a ten thousand man battle scene with each persons emotions sinking into your heart. Like wise a redhaired big breasted goth vampire chick is also not what I want =-). I want something stylistically and thematically out of the norm. Thats how I want to catch eyes.

Before I post anything else I need to give my hands a break. =-).

Thanks again for all your help,
-John

At Apophis, we have a standard deal for interior art: $75 for a half-page, $150 for a full page. We contract by number of pieces, and have a $20 and $40 kill-fee for pieces we reject.

For a cover, we spend from $300-$1000.

When we were using Chris Shy, that was our range. Of course, then WW got their paws on him, and he charges some really high amount for pieces now... I couldn't say how much, we rarely use him, and have a friendship with him now, so it doesn't count.

But... here's the kicker: I have been told by a number of artists (RK Post, Fred Hooper, Thomas Manning, Raven Mimura) that we pay in the high-end of things... and, we pay upfront.

That's the key. We pay upfront. Not 30% upon acceptance, 30% at publish, and 40% six months later. Not any other wonky fuckaround. We pay you when you sign the contract saying "I will create X pieces, Y% of which will be half page, and Z% full page." We tally it up, cut you a check, and tell you when to get them to us.

We have NEVER had an artist flake on us. Ever.

I love handling artists because they honestly want their stuff to look as good, or better, than you do (because its their commercial too)... and they like the respect we give them by trusting them. We have artists that will refuse exclusivity clauses for other companies because they know that when we promise work, we mean it.

If you want a good cover... find an artist you want and contact them. Admittedly, someone like Mike Whelan is going to run you tons, but he is uber-popular, and one of the "Dragon Bunch" (my nickname for Elmore, Easley, Whelan, and the old D&D cover guard). Try someone in comics, or someone that is well-published, but not PAINTING their pieces. Alex Ross is a good example of famous name that will work on something he LIKES for a reasonable price. Fred Hooper (THE HOOP!) has been prolific in the industry for years, and has credits that will include a number of forthcoming ID Games (I know, computer), Shadowrun, Obsidian, quite a few card games... But damn! The boy can make the picutres!

Look through old RPG books you like, find the artists, and contact them. Or find someone that you know that knows them. RPG is a contact sport.

And here's another name if you want excellent, unique, and beautiful work: Veronica Jones. DAMN!

Dav

Being upfront and clear on the terms when you start with an artist is essential, and even then misunderstandings can come out. I got some great artwork for my last project, but there was still a little tension with a couple of the artist. It all worked out for the best, though.

Covers are by far the most expensive component, but this is what all of your ultimate customers are going to see first, and is therefore the most important piece in the book.

As far as Luke's design goes, that looks great, but don't forget that good design takes skill, too. It was Luke's skill in this case, but expertise in any area will cost if you don't do it yourself.

As a warning, I was scammed by a cover artist early in my game's development. The guy had posted a whole bunch of other people's work on his web site and taken the credit for this very fine work. His skills were far less developed, and I luckily found out about this before any money changed hands. I was starting to suspect something because the sketches were not very good, and then someone tipped me off, having seen my game credited on the guy's site and recognizing that the other artwork there was by different hands.

Thats one thing I noticed when I posted 'ad'-requests for cover art at 125-175 at artist communities. LOTS of comic book people responding (Among the others was 1 that didn't seem to have done any rpg work and was just a hobbiest painter, 1 who had done several rpg artworks, and a few otehr misc.). I even found someone I may thinka bout doing the inside art - something I was writing off to public domain art at first. As a whole there was not much suitable for cover art, but as a whole it doesn't matter since I believe I found the artist I want. Of course I'm going to wait a week and see what else comes in as I have been averaging about 6 applications per day.

On a side note about Art and Contracts:
A question comes to my mind. I hear everybody talking about contracts etc for art to ensure I have rights to use it and for how long I have said rights. This makes me think I need a laywer. Is this assumption correct? If so how much have you guys found it runs? So far my art budget is on the verge of exceding my actual printing budget (which i suppose isn't *that* uncommon but I dislike it anyways).

Nah, you don't need a lawyer for something like this unless you're doing really big dollar stuff.

The main issues are:

1) who owns the art: you or the artist.
2) how can the person who doesn't own the art use it
3) What restrictions are being placed on the owner of the art
4) of course price, payment options, and deadlines.


For instance you might decide the artist owns the art and you are just paying to use it (#1).

You might then decide that you want permission to use the art for a) the cover of the book, b) the cover of any future print runs of the book, and c) for promotional fliers or tshirts. The artist might then ask that you not post a high resolution version of the art to a website where it can be grabbed and printed by anyone (#2)

The artist, being the owner of the art, can continue to use the art as they see fit. You might ask that they not provide or sell the art or substantially the same image to another rpg publisher for a period of at least 3 years (#3)


Or pretty much any other combination of these you and the artist agree upon. Its pretty straight forward really.

See, a lot of people are of the opinion that the cover art is what catches people's eye, but I totally disagree. I think the graphic design of your cover is as (or even more) important than the picture itself. For instance, take a look at Two-Fisted Tales. Nice cover piece by Chris Shy (though it does look pretty much like all his other stuff, with no pulp-specific elements), but the graphic design isn't all that exciting. Pretty non-descript. Nothin that reaches out and really grabs you and says "PULP!"

Many, MANY pdf-based games suffer from severe problems in layout and graphic design. Just wander around RPGnow and it becomes obvious very quickly. Look at the game companies that know what they're doing: Malhavoc, Ronin Arts (Phil Reed is a pro and a great designer), and a few others. They know how to take a piece of artwork and make it a part of an overall cover design. Most people just take whatever they've got, slap it on the front, and put a title on it in whatever font they like, in whatever color they think looks cool. Doesn't do much for me, personally.

You don't have to be a pro to do good layout work. I mean, I'm a complete amatuer in the sense that I have zero formal training, but I've developed an eye for graphic design over the years. In fact, I'm laying out the interior of Argonauts in Microsoft Word just to prove this point: super-expensive software isn't necessary for solid graphic design. Time and attention is.

Jonathan Walton wrote: You don't have to be a pro to do good layout work. I mean, I'm a complete amatuer in the sense that I have zero formal training, but I've developed an eye for graphic design over the years. In fact, I'm laying out the interior of Argonauts in Microsoft Word just to prove this point: super-expensive software isn't necessary for solid graphic design. Time and attention is.

Yeah, I'm good at layout design in general. Been doing various graphical design as a hobby for a good 4-6 years so I should be able to get that down right.

I'm also doing all the layout for the book : ie text, pictures, design of the header and sidebar design (im thinking some sort of border thats not the standard plain line i see alot in gurps and other books...) When I get home I'll link you to some preliminary sketches I have.

Back to the point:
The cover design I'm doing myself. Im planning on something very simple to surround the art, but not *too* simple. Maybe something like M&M...I'll get back to you on this while i get home.

Hi there,

Everyone interested in this thread should read Elements of a great cover and all internally linked threads.

Best,
Ron

Dav, that bit about up front payment is really interesting. I just read a book about how expectation of rewards based on performance tends to destroy people's motivation and performance. Pre-paying for art would seem to eliminate that: the reward is already granted; now people can work for the sake of quality.

I can also imagine that such a gesture of trust and straightforwardness would create a *very* responsible and motivated artist on the other end of the deal. Trust breeds trust, responsibility breeds responsibility, respect breeds respect. No wonder nobody's flaked out on you.