Okay, I've checked out What Else Can Demons Do? and Questions About How To Read The Descriptions of Demon Powers and, while they are both educational and entertaining, they didn't really get me where I needed to go with regards to my understanding of the Demon ability Hint.

Background: I'm adding one (only one!) player to the Sorcerer group I've mentioned in the two "First Date" threads in Actual Play. (Side note: in this game, Humanity = Mastery (of self, one's environment, et cetera).)
We haven't sat down and worked on hard numbers yet, but his preliminary character concept works a bit like this:

Hitori Osatu is a computer genius. Really. Has made oodles of money in the software biz, originally starting in Japan, but moving to the US (to the Mass. tech area) in the last couple of years to break into the market here.

The problem is, how much of it is real, and how much of it is the demon that he "has", which sucks the success/karma from others on his behalf? (One reason he left Japan, in fact.) The demon is sort of a drug -- a lot easier to get good code (or a good business deal) relying on it, rather than on his own abilities. Indeed, these days he wonders whether he actually *has* any abilities, or whether it's all an illusion and cheat ...

His book is on order, but I think it's safe to say he gets the basic idea of the Sorcerer/Demon Relationship. :)

I asked him for some more clarification on how he saw the Demon's power working:

- Is the demon actually augmenting your native talent -- are you successful (in your opinion) because it makes you better at what you already do?

Here I was thinking of a simple conveyed Cover, a bit higher than his current Cover.

- Instead, is it your native talent doing the work, but the demon is supplying all the good ideas?

Actually, the best I could think of for this was Cover Boost, but I figured I'd throw it in there.

- Is the demon actually taking ideas out of the heads of other programmers and feeding them to you, so you 'do it first?' If so, does it actually weaken the other programmers? (Less karma, et cetera.)

I thought this might be Hint (+ Taint, depending on the effect on Target), but I'm very hazy on what Hint really accomplishes -- it seems as though the odds are very in favor of rendering the User unconcious or worse instead of getting ideas from the Target.

Actually, that doesn't even seem right:

The demon rolls Power vs. Will of target, if the target wins, then target rolls Humanity vs. Will victories. If both succeed, the TARGET may ask one Yes/No question...

Am I reading that right? It sounds like the Demon does it to the Sorcerer? Seems odd.


Next, the player gave me some feedback.

I was actually thinking of it as a karmic thing. It actually sucks away other folks fortune to give to me. (I have no idea if that's at all doable.) The idea is not only is the demon's powers a "cheat," but it hurts others, too. (And it renders the question of what talent I have almost moot. Am I a genius? Am I a schlub? It makes no difference, does it?)

And this would be... what? Perhaps Taint + Boost Cover, with the latter dependent on the former?

Hey,

Hint doesn't sound quite right for the basic, day-to-day ability, although I think this demon should have it for emergencies. A Hint is typically kind of a life-changing event.

I suggest that ...

It actually sucks away other folks fortune to give to me. (I have no idea if that's at all doable.) The idea is not only is the demon's powers a "cheat," but it hurts others, too.

... is doable, but you need at least two examples from the character's past to work with. Who was hurt, and how? What was gained?

You might end up with all sorts of combinations of Cover, Perception (for the demon), and Special Damage, with victories from ability habitually rolling over into the dice for another (that's one way for a Hint ability to be more reliable, by the way).

Best,
Ron

Doyce wrote: I thought this might be Hint (+ Taint, depending on the effect on Target), but I'm very hazy on what Hint really accomplishes -- it seems as though the odds are very in favor of rendering the User unconcious or worse instead of getting ideas from the Target.

...

Am I reading that right? It sounds like the Demon does it to the Sorcerer? Seems odd.

I had a character whose demon was this eyball in a jar. I used Hint as an offensive power once, and thought that this was probably a typical thing for the demon in question. The power emanated as a beam from the eye striking the face of the target and transfixing them. Basically, the thunderousness of the prophecy delivered put people on their asses, usually.

I didn't have a chance to query the one guy hit with the power, but I envisioned my character slapping him awake and asking what it was that he'd seen. You can only use hint a couple of times yourself - so you have to rely on smacking others with it to get a lot of information out of one. :-)

He would surely have gotten around to using the abilty on himself at some point, no doubt, makig sure there was somebody there to snap him out of it when done.

Does that help at all with envisioning a use for the power? Probably unorthodox to some extent, but I think that the idea is that Hint gives you a once in a lifetime revelation of such power that it just knocks you out. That seems to me to make total sense. Think of the oracle at delphi getting a vision and then falling over. Am I addressing your issue here, or have I missed it?

Like Ron said, I think that the character should definitely have the demon with Hint, for moments like waking up in the matrix. "Is the world I know real?" <Wham> "Ah, no it is not." <Slump-thud>

Mike

Okay, I got some feedback/examples from the player on how he sees this 'karma' thing working with his demon:

Example 1: Early on, working with another guy on a programming project. We both have ideas on how to handle the problem, but I'm stuck on mine, and he's going to get all the credit. We're both there, late at night, at the office...

Until he goes out for a smoke, and gets mugged. Which I don't find out about, because I just finally found a bit of Open Source code on the Net (I'm sure I looked there before) that fits what I need just perfectly ...

Next morning, I've got the answer for the boss... Jiro is in the hospital six weeks with a cracked skull.

Example 2: ...or there's that big business deal selling that game to Electronic Arts. It was really lucky that it was just what the CEO there had just finished telling their product manager he wanted. Too bad about that shelf in the copy room collapsing onto his secretary who was supposed to send out that information to all the competitors -- she seemed really nice.

Okay, I've got some ideas about how to do this, but I'm looking for some input from the Sorcerer-fu wuxia folks.

More from the player, just because I liked this part...

Accidents, arrests, illnesses, strokes, heart attacks, aneurysms, slips, crimes, law suits ... it's, ah, amazing what happens around me when a deal's at risk, or when I'm trying to solve a complex technical problem.

Is that my fault? Is it?

And if the sweat deal goes through, or I figure out a tricky problem -- does that mean I couldn't have without *him*? (Or, worse, that I could have?)

What does that make *me*?

I looking forward to this guy.

Hi there,

Let's run through it then ...

... Until he goes out for a smoke, and gets mugged. Which I don't find out about, because I just finally found a bit of Open Source code on the Net (I'm sure I looked there before) that fits what I need just perfectly ...

Next morning, I've got the answer for the boss... Jiro is in the hospital six weeks with a cracked skull.

Here's the important part: the demon doesn't "change luck," that's just jargon it uses. It really has to go and get Jiro mugged.

How? Well, there are lots of ways, and which is largely a matter of style, but very significant. Here are two broad categories.

1. The demon really does it: finds Jiro, mugs him. (a) The demon is human-looking enough to do this, or stealthy enough to do it subtly. (b) The demon is a Possessor. Either (a) or (b) is easily done via demon Types and abilities.

2. The demon works through intermediaries of some kind. (a) It is very persuasive and able to reward those who do dirty work for it. (b) It sets up "circumstances" that put the target character at risk, mainly by affecting his or her environment.

No matter what, though, I strongly suggest that the demon have Perceive in order to "know" when a crucial bit of opportunity has arisen for its master's benefit. In order to perceive such an abstract thing, I suggest that it must know, without using an ability (i.e. via being told) exactly what its master "needs" - i.e., the thing that eludes the master must be made clear to it.

The computer stuff sounds like Warp to me - the demon was able to mess with the actual internet (more Perception, a second version) once it learned what Jiro was doing.

Given that the demon does this a lot, and using various different sorts of "bad luck" at different times, I suggest that it uses the same abilities each time:

1. Perceive the window of opportunity (again, after it has learned what's frustrating its master). Suggested abilities: Perception

2. Scope out the target character and figure out how to get the needed information or opportunity to its master. Suggested abilities: Cloak

3. Harm the target character and transfer the information. Suggested abilities: Warp, Perception, Travel, Special Damage, Daze

Now what you need to know, in order to pick and choose among all these options, is the demon's "look and feel." Is it a Passer who looks like a humble manservant? Or just a wicked voice in its master's head? Or a drifting smell that can coalesce into human-shaped but still surrealistic form? That sort of thing.

And you really really need to know its Desire and Need.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: Now what you need to know, in order to pick and choose among all these options, is the demon's "look and feel." Is it a Passer who looks like a humble manservant? Or just a wicked voice in its master's head? Or a drifting smell that can coalesce into human-shaped but still surrealistic form? That sort of thing.

We haven't done any hard stats for the Demon yet (working outside the book in sort of a freeform riff), but he's described it as a tattoo of an Oni on his arm. Any number of telltales suggest themself.

I'm guessing Perception, as you said, active cloak to go with the passive cloak of an inconspicous Demon. Probably Psychic Force to handle the folks who have strokes and physical ailments... definitely Travel.

Hmm... maybe Spawn to handle people who suffer 'accidents', so the main demon has plausible deniability (and the character can keep on denying his culpability to himself)? Also perhaps shapeshift and cover when 'on a mission'.

And you really really need to know its Desire and Need.

Definitely. We haven't discussed that yet, since we don't meet face to face until tomorrow. He did go over to Sorcerer online and, using a sketchy outline of chargen, did up his character.

Very much looking forward to the game tomorrow night.