Why are Footman's pick and the spike on a Warhammer so low an ATN (6), i think this seems wrong, and they are also killers, +2dam and +1 vs armours are VERY VERY nice.

When i think on a Pick type weapon, i think that i must be hard to hit the right angle all the time!
we all know that in a melee, most hits are not "perfect" hits, so a pick has the same ATN as a normal sword is wrong, a sword have a lot more of "hitting-area" then the pick.

Warhammer/Shield is the most lethal combo in the game....this ignore the high DTN of these weapons.

Why have a sword when you can have a Warhammer? a sword is weaker all-around!

Should the Pick and spikey end of a Warhammer have ATN7 instead?

My take on it is that they should have a damage of +1 instead of +2.

But you said that they have +1 against armour. Is this a typo, or has this been changed? I have the early, first edition of the book, and it says that picks and warhammers have a +2 vs armour.

And as I've said in that other thread, the warhammer is quite vulnerable if you manage to get the shield out of the way.

Still, it is a good weapon, and I'm confused as to why my players always choose swords. :)

it has +2 vs armour, my typo!

somehow sword should be more "equal".

I have stated threads on some "real" weapon and armour forums, asking if it all that superior and all that stuff, until now they have comfirmed me that its acutally harder to hit "the right angle" with s spike, then it is with a sword, becouse a sowrd don't need a fully accurate hit to damage.

So i think that i will push the ATN to 7 on the pick and the Spike on a Warhammer.

I think it depends on the type of Armour the opponent wears. Swords are leathal against unarmoured foes, but not so good against someone in plate. This is where the hammers, picks, bec de corbin etc come in.

The combination of weight, and spike, with a good hefty swing is designed to get through that plate, plus remember that guy in plate isn't that nimble.

Agianst someone not in plate of course the hammer/pick etc is still deadly (no one wants to get hit with a hammer) but someone in no armour will have a better chance of dodging out of the way.

The hammer/pick is an answer to the plate, it the old attackk versus defence arms race.

yes i know this, but remeber that most armour is not falt plates, and as you say, swords are not good against armour. which i way they don't got extra damage vs armour, like a warhammer and a pick.

what i have been wondering about is that its as easy to hit with the pick as a sword?, somehow with just my knowledge of tools, (my father is a black smith), its actually quite hard to take his "pick hammer" and hit it through a plate of metal, not becouse it don't get through, but you need to hit it in a very precise angle, or else it glides.

anyway this is a roleplay, and a pick should not has as big an ATN as a Sword, its the same diff to hit with a pick as a mace.
A mace is a stick with a metal head, instead of a spike, and this has the same diff to hit with? comeon!
sword have the merit that they can do damage even on a "gliding" hit!.

in RPG thems, try to look at it! A pick is better then even an axe to hit precise with?, if this is realistic, i can't figure why every one used pick instead of axe's.

I think that a pick is a special anti-armour weapon, with a good armour penetration (+2 vs armour). and should be used against armour.
As the stats are now, there are no justication NOT to use pick against both unarmourd and armoured opponents.

if the pick stats are "realiastic" i can't image why not everyone has this weapon in the middel ages..........right from the beginning....

To be honest I don't know Bergh (I haven't seen or used a warpick) I think the ATN is do do with how easy it is to hit something, the fact that you need to be precise to penetrate plate with a pick is another issue, you can still get on target easily. To my mind swinging a mass weapon is pretty easy to do. As to glideing off that has to do with armour, if there is no armour it doesn't glide off either way you still hit the guy.

I don't have thses problems though, my game is a dark ages game, no plate, no picks no dopplehanders. :D

bergh wrote: Why are Footman's pick and the spike on a Warhammer so low an ATN (6), i think this seems wrong, and they are also killers, +2dam and +1 vs armours are VERY VERY nice.

When i think on a Pick type weapon, i think that i must be hard to hit the right angle all the time!
we all know that in a melee, most hits are not "perfect" hits, so a pick has the same ATN as a normal sword is wrong, a sword have a lot more of "hitting-area" then the pick.

Warhammer/Shield is the most lethal combo in the game....this ignore the high DTN of these weapons.

Why have a sword when you can have a Warhammer? a sword is weaker all-around!

Should the Pick and spikey end of a Warhammer have ATN7 instead?

i will agree that a warhammer is a very good weapon, maybe i did not write it correct (im not good at english), and ofcourse a warhammers "hammer side" does damage even on a "gliding" hit.
"the hammer side" of the warhammer is all ok by me.

What im talking about it the Spike on the warhammer or Foot mans pick.
i know by my own experince in my fathers workshop that a pointy spike should be hit in a precise angle to penetrate metal plates, adn most armour has round angles, to make it even harder! so as i see it either a pick or the "pick" side of the warhammer can't do much damage if they only do a "gliding hit".
Therefor i think it should have ATN7, and this is the same as an axe, and i can't figure how a axe should be harder to use then a Pick?.

Granted if you feel the pointy end of warhammers and picks should be ATN 7 (like an axe) its your call as GM.

My point is there are other ways you can make these weapons less desirable other than changing its stats, though perhaps the stats may need adjusting too. I think I might just say this before anyone else does - Jake and Brian may say something about a review of these weapons in 'Flower of Battle'!

Picks, maces and warhammers became more popular during the late middle ages, as armor became more advanced, because they were great tools for killing people inside metal shells.

Actually, to use a sword effectively, you will also have to align the edge properly. Any deviation of the proper angle will quickly reduce your nice and clean cut to an ugly tearing off limbs, which requires way more strength and seriously messes up your techniques, because you won't be able to properly pull your blade through the entire movement.

At least that's my experience from a little bit of test cutting with sharp blades. I had serious trouble cutting some bamboo when not really doing my techniques close to 100% correct, and I figure it would be even worse when attempting to cut through real bone. And the pumpkins I mutilated also only showed nice and clean cuts when everything was right. Otherwise, I'd cut a bit into the pumpkin and then tear off the rest of the top.

I agree with Berg here. I mean, what's the ATN for an axe (no info in front of me)? For the pick side of a warhammer, these should be the same, no?

Mike

Axe=ATN7 damage st+1, +1 dam vs armour. DTN10
Pick/warhammer spike=ATN6 Damage st+2, +2 dam vs. armour. DTN8

which one would you choose? :-)

for me pick is ok if it get ATN7, still very powerfull, but more balanced both realistic and game technical.

Kinda reminds me, anyone know why it's easier to thrust with a scimitar than a straight sword in TROS?
Typo? Ignorance? (don't mean that offensively)
No biggie, easy enuf to change, but kinda annoying having things like that in the rules.

yes that is funny, even when under the description i qoute:
"..though stat same curvature slightly complicates the mechanics of thrusting.....".
and they are rougly the same length.

i have "corrected" it in my book to 6.

yes it is kinda annoying, that a RPG like TRoS, who depend heavly on combat, somehow maybe have some problems with the weapons stats.

Anyway maybe Jake has researched it, i don't know, i just hope he will let us know, in the future how wrong we are and how correct the stats are in the book! :-) (hehe).

The main reason you keep saying that it should be ATN 7 is the hitting plate armour example. But what happens if you hit someone without any armour? Also the footmans pick was invented (so i believe) for attacking guuys in full plate so i imagine it could do this very well. It is pretty damn easy to hit someone with a hammer. Nice light weapon, easily manoeuvrable but hey not very good at parrying (hence the high DTN)
I have found that it is a very cool weapon to use and by no way limit its Stats as a DM.

I also agree with the social implications stated above and play them the same way. You see a guy wearing a footmans pick or warhammer at his belt he only wants to do one thing... bash your skull in :)

hello! im not trying so say that the "hammerhead" of a warhammer should be changed! only the "pick head" and the pick, anyway i can hear that im wrong about thinks.

But please a game master let the players look at the weapons, tell em to compare the warhammer against anything else, and then you got yourself a "warhammer" group! hehe.

I dont know how long it takes to put on a shield properly but I imagine it takes a while longer than grabbing a weapon. Even if this is only seconds, it can be crucial when ambushed. The sword has the advantage in this situation.

In my game at least those situations happens fairly often; the party is travelling on a road, they are sitting by the fire or are walking through town. Even though they are carrying their shields, sometimes they dont have the time to don them. In those circumstances do the swords really shine. When they are going up against non armored or lightly armed opponents the lack of armor penetration doesnt matter as much either; in those situations the sword is a good protection vs the maneuvers that negate the shield for defense.

This is balanced out when the party has time to deck up and prepare for a fight, especially against heavily armored opponents. Then mr Flailuser really shines.

I can imagine, though, that in a game with a lot of fights you can prepare for and with a lot of armors involved that the mass weapon and shield proficiency dominates. But it isnt that strange really considering that that's the situation those weapons were made for.

OTOH my intuition tells me that something is fishy when a weapon with two small business ends have the same ATN as a weapon with two big business ends and a point but then I have zero experience with medieval weapons so I cant say if it's correct or not.

Kapten the way i see it working is that ATN relates to how easy it is to hit someone with said weapon. The pick is a fairly easy weapon to use, isn't to small and it is pretty light, the sword is a bit more unwieldy, bit heavier but it does have those big blades which counteract the negatives... this is how i see them having the same ATN

Okay, I just did some checking on this, here goes:

I assume the impitus for this thread is a concern over a lack of game balance with the warhammer and pick, and the desire for that balance to be present. However, it's already there!

One, Def target number for these weapons is 8, which is not that low. Makes sense that to attack with a mass weapon is easy, but to defend is hard.

Two, the one thing that everyone seems to be missing is MANUVERS! The mass weapon and sheild proficiency is very limited. The it has the same number of offensive manuvers as sword and sheild (4, bash and cut are mutually exclusive) and the only real tactical manuver has a higher activation cost. It also has FAR fewer defensive manuvers.

All things being otherwise equal, good sword fighter will out manuver, bind, counter and just plain fuck up a warhammer fighter

Mass weapon and SHIELD.....haha

pick+shield are to powerfull a combo, even my players who are muchkins of the first degree, thing that it may be an error.

anyway, remeber that puncture damage it WAY more damage doing in the body then cuts, which also add to the abilitys of a pick/warhammer.

I'm not sure I'm getting it here. This still sounds balanced to me. I'll go run some combat simulations this weekend, then I shall return with some actual evidence :)

Yes, in a battle I think shield + mass weapoin is probably the best choice.

But, what kind of campaign are you running that the PC's are always walking around with a shield handy???

In all the campaigns I've been in, pick/hammer +shield has been the least selected Prof. Becuase without the shield, the PC has very limited defensive options.

We do so much sneaking, climbing, swimming, and general running around, that for a PC to always be carrying his shield would be a hinderance.

Shields are just like other kinds of armor - they were meant for fighting battles. Walking around town all day with a shield or chainmail shirt will attract a lot of undue attention.

Carrying a weapon for defense against riffraff is one thing, walking around town like your about to lay siege to the castle is usually not acceptable on an everyday basis.

Now if your campaign centres on a series of wars or pitched battles, fine. But if your PC's are running around town getting involved in intrige, thievery, and local politics, as a GM I would seriously ask some hard questions of a player who wants to carry his shield around with him everywhere.

I just ran 11 combats on the simulator. Both combatants were identical except for equiptment. In all sets I did my best to make each combatant win.

8 sets were with both wearing pot helms, chain and leather limbs. One fighter had a warhammer and small sheild, the other a cut&thrust sword and dagger. 5 wins by the sword fighter, usually quite decisive, by lowering the warhammer's CP pool and then feinting and thrusting. 3 wins by the warhammer fighter, usually very aggressive repeated strikes which wore down the swordsman by damage and then finished him off. These combats were all run with starting CP pools at 10.

3 sets with both in full plate, footmans pick& large sheild and 2handed bastard sword It was very hard for either opponant to do any real damage. One win by the pickman and two that were a simple matter of fatigue. In which case the swordsman would have technically won as he had a slightly higher CP total due to the fact that he did not have a sheild.

I admit that this is by no means a comprehensive test, but it does support my earlier argument that the weapons are balanced AS IS. If munchkin players are stomping on every swordsman out there by using a warhammer or pick you are doing something wrong.