Okay.. now that I've sorted out reality at the present time...
I can move on to my point, if I ever had one.

An alternate priority system as it pertains to.. reality. Specifically a squad-based WW2-styled adventure.. using TROS. Anyone with rules for guns will be welcome to message me on that. Aerial combat will be handled via the use of a modified set of rules for the table-top version of Crimson Skies.. which *gasp* has manovers.

Anyways, the main differences I am seeking to implement is to throw out the old list's racial priorities and replace them with ranks. I.e. Private, Sergeant, General.. etc.(it wont get as high as a general.. I just said that because I forget what's higher than a sergeant.. a Lieutenant?) *Shrug*
Also, the social system is re-vamped and replaced with 'jobs'.. i.e. what type of soldier the specific character is. This can be anything from the common rifleman to a sniper, a pilot, tank commander, engineer, scout, heavy-weapons guy(borrowing that name from such games as Half-life..for lack of a better term.)

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?
-Ingenious

sound interesting! seems like a quick and simple change, Actully each soldier could have some very interesting SA's

-sergeant-lieutenant-captains.......

anyway, are the players going to be allies or germans or something else?

Whaoh! Awesome idea! Shweet!
I love the idea of a WW2 type of game. I could see that being quite cool.
I have tried adapting it to similar things. Wow, cool.
I don't have any immediate suggestions, but I'm going to start working on it today. . . . along with all the other TROS based things I'm working on (i'm never going to get things done)

I have yet to pitch this idea to the other players, but that will happen at Saturay's TROS session.

As far as what if they're on the same side or not.. I assume so. Player cooperation is highlighted in these kinds of games IMO.. so if they want to function as a unit or whatnot.. I'd see them being on the same side.. yet in the back of my mind sits the possibility of spies/secret agents, and double-agents.. etc etc..

I have to draw up the plot and story and the missions and stuff once/if they approve of it. The plot isn't the hard part to figure out.. it's the guns and stuff. And aerial combat rules will be pretty interesting.. but the basic Crimson Skies rules work.. I just have to modify them to mirror TROS.. which involves replacing the crimson skies set of attributes with derived attributes and the standard ones found in TROS.

And I too have alot of TROS stuff I am working on, which keeps getting sidelined by school, the recent hiring of myself at my old job(temporarily).. etc etc.
-Ingenious

Actually...I'd take rank off of the chart, or handle it differently.

Higher rank means higher responsibility in a squad/platoon/whatever. This is often a scary, not-so-good thing.

Also, a unit is going to have, generally, a Lt, a few NCOs, and some low-ranking enlisted. Your PC group should probably look like that. That means pre-setting the available ranks and everyone has to choose, whether or not rank is paid for as part of PC generation.

Jake

Your point is vaild.. but what would replace races? I need a suitable replacement for that because well, there's only humans. What would be a good alternative to giving the characters some distinction, as races do?

I'm grasping at straws on that one..
However, making the choice at character creation what rank your character is going to be is a good thing also. Higher rank might mean more responsibility.. but it also means there's a chain of command.. and hence.. you DO have subordinates to boss around.

Hmm... what to replace races with...
In either case, I need rules for guns.. and I've seen some in the forum that look promising if not for the severely amped up damage. I think going just above the damage that a longbow does seems a bit more wise than something that can do 10-15 without factoring successes..

The missile/gun pool will still be the same as it is, if not modified by reflex also.. perhaps an average of aim and reflex.. or reflex and perception.. or not.
Then there's the issue of the instant death type weapons.. i.e.. tanks, bombs, the ole bazooka.. mortars.. etc. I assume a terrain roll to avoid a mortar while it is in the air would suffice... and perhaps the tank's main gun can be preoccupied with blowing something else up..rather than soldiers.. but a bomb or a rocket or a strafing run from a plane..hmmm...

But mostly I can dodge the main concerns about the even more deadly combat to be had with guns by the fact that I'm sending out the players on somewhat covert-ops type missions. 'Go steal that secret plane and fly it back to England' for example.. or 'Sabotage this bridge'. The second one being even more covert than the first.. you can't really go onto a bridge with guns a blazin' and shooting up everyone in sight and THEN plant the bomb.. That would give away the fact that you were there, and perhaps the enemy strolls along and finds a bunch of corpses or an unguarded bridge. Then they search for bombs, find em and disarm them. And the mission is therefore a failure. The other option being that you kill everyone and then stand guard impersonating the enemy, practicing your foreign languages on anyone whom walks by(failing that language check would be interesting)..and then blowing up the bomb whenever you get replaced.

So I'm not so worried about the deadliness part... it'll be plenty deadly if the planning is crappy. But there will also be times when I want a bloodbath and lots of shooting and blowing shit up.. and giving the players the feeling of 'I cant beleive we survived that'..to which I am sure, some will and some won't.

-Ingenious

Hey - some suggestions for you - instead of "Race", make that you're Military Job - here's my suggestion:
A - Officer (enlisted, Special Troop)
B - NCO (Special Troop) or Officer (enlisted, regular)
C - Special Troop (Sniper (different from a sharpshooter), Paratroopers, Military Intelligence, Commando units) or NCO (regular)
D - Specialist (Machine Gunner, Sharpshooter)
E - Support troop (mail courier, translater, map-maker, think Corp. Upam from Saving Private Ryan)
F - Combat Engineer
G - Grunt!

This will require certain amounts of GM control, as the starting MOS may limit certain skill packet choices, but these are just my suggestions. Also, feel free to work around with how you feel the ranking should be - I have no idea where a combat engineer would be in regards to training and, well, prestige compared to a machine-gunner, so change it as you feel would be appropriate (and for any military or formor military people here on the forums, I honestly hope I didn't step on anyone's toes here! Feel free to correct me!)

Social Class, I think, should be kept, although more nation-dependant (America, for example, being more economically based than family-based as in Europe or Asia). I think that, as far as skills are concerned, there should be two primary groupings - CIVILIAN SKILLS and MILITARY SKILLS - Civilian skills would be a group of skill packets to choose from, but relevant to your social class - military skills more relevant to your MOS.

A final bit of clarification - the difference between Sharpshooters (or "Marksmen") and Snipers - the American Army did not have an official "Sniper School" during WWII - the Germans and Russians, on the other hand, were VERY much about snipers (in fact, being a Russian Sniper is a great way to play a femal character - there were quite a few in the Red Army). A "sniper" tends to work alone or with a spotter, and is a master of camoflage (sp?). They tend to take out officers and demoralize troops, often separate from the main battle. A "sharpshooter" (which America DID have, as well as probobly a few other countries) is a man especially well-trained with his rifle for long-ranged accuracy, and is often given a scoped rifle (and, if American, usually a bolt-action M1903 Springfield instead of a M1 Garand for accuracy) and works as a part of an infantry unit, as a counter-sniper to protect the officers and to give accurate, pinpoint fire-support to take out key targets on the battlefield or to suppress them, similar to the role of the machine-gunner.

Kaelin

Yea, I had the job thing slated for overtaking social class.. since I find social class to be largely irrelevant when bullets fly overhead..
But, starting money still has to be figured out somehow.. so hmmm...

There are many a paradox when revamping the priority system..
Also, should the guns and such be government issue? Or would this be something a character 'bought' and counted against his starting wealth?
I imagine, like recent times.. if you wanted body armor and weren't issued it.. you had to buy it.

It isn't going to be historically accurate as far as I can tell for now...(what fun would that be to not deviate from history at all?) Anyways, kevlar is a product of the Du Pont company.. and all it is, is a composite(bunch of fiber and a matrix).. and I think kevlar was born in the 50's. Perhaps I can create an alternate WW2 that took place after the point of 1944/45. So, no A-bombs yet.. Hiroshima and Nagasaki still stand.. Perhaps there are semi-advanced forms of body armor for protection..(other than the typical metal plate type of 'flak jacket'..) This can be an option should combat prove to be completely fruitless and lacking of any fun whatsoever..

Interesting possibility that is.. if there is a semi-advanced form of bullet proof vest.. say.. with an AV of 8 or 10.. that significantly cuts down on the weapon's effectiveness. So that 10 base damage rifle doesnt seem so potent now, and the pistol far less destructive. And I find this to be a valid method of 'game balance' if/when combat goes to hell. It means that taking time to aim will be worth it sometimes, while shooting rapidly would be of benefit in other circumstances. It also means, the dice pool is much more important than the base damage of the weapon.

I want this style of TROS to be playable, and fun.. not just instant kills and no chance of someone surviving if they get hit.. unless by something reasonable like a nuke or a bomb, rocket, mortar, etc. Or if they step on a landmine.

Other than that, *shrug*.
-Ingenious

For what you want to do it sounds like you need neither a "race" nor a "social class" substitute. Spec Ops kind of troopers are all really good, really skilled, and given the best gear possible by the branch they serve with.

It makes no sense at all why a mail clerk would be running around Fortress Europe with a bunch of SAS troopers, or why a top ranked officer would be limited to gear he could afford with his starting wealth.

I'd divide the priorities up like this:

Abilities, Proficiencies, Millitary Skills (customized packets for different MOSes, like Sniper, Mechanic, Pilot, etc. Depending on the priority selected at creation the character has a different number and level of millitary focused skills), Non-millitary skills (these would be things like languages, diplomacy, lying one's ass off. Not stuff generally taught in the military, but useful for spies and secret agent types who could conceivably be sent into situation like you are describing), and finally Gifts and Flaws.

Let the players choose ABCD and E and allocate accordingly. No need for Race or Social Class as they are largely irrelevant. I guess if you want to be technical about it social class did play a large aprt in WWII on all sides, but only as far as what jobs you could get. If you weren't part of the the "aristocracy" in America or England you'd never be allowed into the inteligence community, for example. No college degree meant no admission to the USAAC, even if one had a pilot's liscense and many hours expirience.
But unless you want to have social class determine the list of "jobs" you can choose its probably best to just leave it off the list entirely.

You are right, Tash, normally a mail courier WOULDN'T have any reason to be running around with a bunch of commandoes - however, this IS a game, and wierd stuff happens all the time. I included such a wide variety of MOS for a couple of reasons. You never know when your base will be overrun and troops with different levels of training and combat experience will have to band together in order to survive. Or perhaps your squad of Spec Opps has to go in and save a group of mail couriers that got caught in an ambush - much as in fantasy TROS, very rarely, I'd imagine, do players choose to play the farmer with little combat skill, magic, stealth, or whatever - the "typical peasant" - I'd imagine that very rarely will players in a WWII game choose to play anything other than Special Troops - however, having the possibility to make other types in character creation is as much for the GM as the players, and allows for a much more well-rounded world to be created without a special set of rules just on "Everybody else" - the point of TROS is that you ARE everbody else, just you've focused your training on being a hero - other than SA's, there is no "special something" which automatically makes you higher on the foodcahin than everybody else, and EVERYBODY can have their own SA's.
Also, as I stated before, and you kind of said it yourself, but social class IS important because it determines your MOS - and that is determined by your skills. A backwater farmer from the appalachian mountains who never even went to Junio High school isn't likely to know how to speak as many languages as a Harvard grad, while said Harvard graduate isn't likely to have great skills in hunting and tracking like said mountain-man - but both men can be very important in a squad. Watch "Band of Brothers", and you can see this dynamic between several of the characters. Also, I would recommend perhaps an alternate to "starting funds" for social classes - instead, replace it with certain amounts of something like "Influence points" - since equipment was issued to soldiers, influence points (based on coming from a particularly powerful or wealthy family) could be "traded" for certain favors.

I had figured it would be good to replace Race with the jobs, and have social class as your position in the army, although I am liking this idea of influence points. overall, though, I think things are looking pretty good. I'm excited to see how this turns out.

Alas, Kaelin if you were a pilot in WW1(largely a volunteer thing back then).. and continued to serve until WW2.. you would still be a pilot. Regardless of your social class. Say you were 18 at the end of WW1, and WW2 broke out in 1939.. that's only 11-12 years.. Making you still a relatively young pilot. And with quite a bit more experience than a Harvard grauate whom got admittance to flight training via his social status. And perhaps in that 11-12 year lull, you got promoted.. perhaps several times. Now compare your Harvard degree and flight training vs someone with a hell of alot more experience.. and a much higher rank. While the social thing might mean some influence.. so would rank.

There's many different possibilities within this issue.. which is why I see it as irrelevant. As GM I'll be making judgement calls on characters because I don't like being limited. And, to address the issue of mail carriers in the heat of battle... the aforementioned Upam from Saving Private Ryan was for the most part a translator..who translated intercepted communications to English.. as well as other clerical duties. Didn't he say that he never saw combat before? That's evidences by his franticness and fear as he's wondering 'should I take my typewriter with me or no?' and all that other stuff. Granted, that's a movie.. not reality. But alas, war is war. The army back then made do with what was available.

I'm also using TROS for this because I like the SA system, the melee fighting which might come in handy on occasion.. the pool system.. and character priorities. Also, because I lack any general knowledge with any other RPG system than D&D.. and well, D&D and WW2? Hah. That cracks me up. Other options might be available.. but then I'd have to buy a book.. and everyone will have to learn another RPG system.. And we're planning on doing some Sorceror and possibly Traveler stuff soon.

I'll update everyone after Saturday's session.
-Ingenious

Using TRoS combat-, skill- and/or SA system does not mean you have to use the same kind of character generation. Priorities are good, but you should tailor it to what kind of campaign you will be running.

Example A: Twilight2000-campaign: The last order you got was "you're on your own, try to get home alive", and start off with personal and salvaged (looted) equipment deep in enemy territory. Goal: survive.

Example B: Silent Storm-campaign: The pc's are a special squad specialising sabotage/espionage missions. A superiour gives vague (deniable) orders, the party has a lot of freedom in interpretation. Goal: accomplish whatever goals you're told ("stop the nazis from getting the bomb"-type of campaign).

In campaign A, soldiers of any rank and skill level would fit in: the mail clerk goes along with the SAS because they are all allies and have a common goal (get home alive). Rank is not important - until you start dealing with npc's. Starting equipment/wealth is important as you wont' get any supplies (starting with a M1 tank is different from starting with a hummer or on foot). *Conclusion: The (modded) priority system would work very well.

In campaign B, soldiers would be selected for the squad based on their qualifications: basically all the pc's then should have good (but different) stats, skills, proficiencies etc. The best possible (under the circumstances) equipment would be available to all etc. *Conclusion: Other methods of character generation would be much better.

...
(idea):

What about a guerrilla-type campaign? Characters are cooperating because they have compatible SA's, social class/wealth can mean something (think of drug barons), survial and social skills can suddenly be important etc. etc.

Below are suggested stats and rules for firearms:

Bolt-action Rifle (Enfield, Springfield or K98 for example)
2-4 rounds prep time:
load clip: 1 (in hand), 2 (in pouch)
cock bolt: 1 (must be done after each shot)
shoulder rifle: 1
Refresh begins once rifle is shouldered.
2 MP dice to reduce prep by one second at Reflex/TN 8
ATN: 4
DR: 8p, ignores upto 4 points of armour (any)
Range: +1 ATN per 30 yards
Note: The bolt must be activated after each shot.

Semi-automatic Rifle (M1 Garand or G43 for example)
1-3 rounds prep time:
load clip: 1 (in hand), 2 (in pouch)
shoulder rifle: 1
Refresh begins once rifle is shouldered.
2 MP dice to reduce prep by one second at Reflex/TN 8
ATN: 4
DR: 8p, ignores upto 4 points of armour (any)
Range: +1 ATN per 25 yards

Low-calibur automatic (submachinegun ala MP40 or Thompson)
1-5 rounds prep time:
load magazine: 2 (in hand), 4 (in pouch)
shoulder or hip weapon: 1
Refresh begins once weapon is shouldered(or hipped?).
2 MP dice to reduce prep time by one second at Reflex/TN 8
ATN: 5
DR: 6p, ignore 3 armour (single shot) 9p plus successes as a fall (burst)*
Range: +1 ATN per 20 yards
Note: burst fire costs d10/2 (round up) rounds and adds 2 dice to MP.

High-calibur automatic (LMG or MMG ala BAR, or MG42)
1-6 rounds prep time:
set tripod/bipod: 2
load magazine/belt: 2 (magazine), 3 (belt)
swivel to target: 1
Refresh begins once weapon is on target.
2 MP dice to reduce prep time by one second at Reflex/TN 8
ATN: 6
DR: 10p plus successes as a fall (burst)*
Range: +1 ATN per 40 yards
Note: burst fire costs d10 rounds and adds 3 dice to MP.

*Burst and fully-automatic weapons distribute piercing damage as if the player hit had fallen. They are incapable of "called" shots.

I hope these rules help. I've not had a chance to use them myself as my main player hates modern/ww2 type RPGs :P.

Any questions or critique? Let me know!

GaGrin, your weapons and rules turned out a bit different from mine. Care to compare notes? Mine are pretty well play tested. PM me.

Good ideas guys.
I'm glad to see my idea evolving with the help I'm getting.

Although I am too inebriated at the moment to seriously sift through the pertinent information and possibly playtest Grin's weapon stats..(though still trying to do so..)
And Caz, check your inbox because I want to see your weapon stats too.

I can't honestly see any bullet doing over 10 damage. Even at max starting TO that's a level 2 or 3 wound. So 'armor' has to be considered as well.

The idea of not using the priorities as the original is interesting... the players could just choose what they want to be and their SA's and so forth...
But I still think a mail clerk would be piss-poor in terms of weapons training, and also physical attributes, etc etc. His mental attributes and mental-based skills would be higher though as a result.. Compare that to Joe the Farmer who's a grunt and doesn't know 3+3..but can shoot the hell out of someone.. Which is why some of the attributes sytem *must* be kept.. obviously.

Also, I just wanted some alternatives to seperate the 'heroes' from the 'zeroes' by replacing race(since everyone is going to be human)..and the fact that social class *can* be included changes things slightly.
Perhaps the job aspect of things is relative to the character, his SA's.. etc.

An interesting thought occured to me, perhaps I should award medals just like the real military does for certain actions and the occasional 'above and beyond the call of duty' situation.. perhaps this can manifest itself through the boosting of either the optional influence factor, or by boosting SA's or insight points.. or boosting a stat or two or skill outright? *Shrug*

Anyone else got any suggestions?
I also like the fact that some of you are thinking in terms of historical weapons like the Garand, BAR, the various MG's etc. Now let's sit down and tweak it a bit. Since a round is 1 second(or two depending on how often I want bullets flying about).. is the time between shots too much, or too little?
But I absolutely am astounded at Grin's ingeniousness at the randomness of burst fire.. and distributing it like falling damage.. however, that presents a problem. Wound levels must stack in random falling damage in order for them to be effective. If an automatic weapon does 10 damage.. that's 10 points randomly distributed.. meaning that 10 areas can have a single level 1 wound.. which means someone got 10 shots off as compared to however many he should have fired initially. Perhaps we just roll to find out however many areas are hit as there are bullets. For example.. someone gets 4 shots off in an exchange.. and that hits 4 areas.. and the damage rating is 10.. that's saying there should be at least 2 level 3's and 2 level 2's...

Other than that.. I have nooooo clue what to comment on next..
-Ingenious

I agree with your statment on bullet damage.

The reason for the high DR in the MG's is to represent lots of bullets in the fewest rolls possible (making lots of to-hit and wound rolls seperately would be a pain in the arse!).

so, that 10 damage on the MG is not hitting one location...

...actually i've just seen a loop hole in these rules (bugger).

If the damage is "as a fall" then where does TO come in?

Then again, should TO matter versus modern guns? Medical science states that gunshot wounds are mostly a matter of pure luck, unlike more traditional forms of making large holes in people.

Whatcha think?

Haven't gotten a PM from you yet ingenious. Yeah, 10 is way too high. With fire arms you have to use mods vs AV. You have to balance the actual DR with TO, possible # of successes, possibility of wounding/killing balance, etc., just like a normal weapon. The DR is based on the size and type of projectile perforating the character. But adding, for example, +4 vs AV is what separates a high velocity, dense bullet from an arrow, showing its true power and penetrative capability.

Ingenious wrote: Alas, Kaelin if you were a pilot in WW1(largely a volunteer thing back then).. and continued to serve until WW2.. you would still be a pilot. Regardless of your social class. Say you were 18 at the end of WW1, and WW2 broke out in 1939.. that's only 11-12 years..

Yea well... Blah.
You're right... and I was most likely off my rocker at that time.

Anyways, I have to check my email to see if Caz has sent me his stuff yet..
And I also need to get my ass in gear and work on that theif supplement thing. But that comes after I finish working from 9am-3pm and then going to school from 530pm-1030pm..

Damned time. Not enough of it to go around for me. This also cuts into my flight training, homework, etc etc etc.
All for a dismal 7.50 an hour and *NO* benefits/insurance.

It's still better than nothing, so I'll take what I can get.
-Ingenious

Another Idea for Automatic Fire:

Atn is to be very low (3?)

The sucesses are how many rounds were on target (or maybe sucesses/2)

Each round on target is treated as a specific wound with a damage of 7 for submachinegun fire, 8-9 for LMG's, 10 for .50 Caliber.

The only problem is there is no damage variance to the autofire bullets except where they hit. Could roll an additional D6, 1= -2 dam, -2 = -1 dam, 3-4 = no diff, 5 = +1 dam, 6 = +2 damage

Range though should probably be +1 every 5-10 yards for hand held full auto fire.

Also, (don't have any info in front, guestimating) most WWII autofire weapons should have a rounds per minute of at least 300 - which means 5 rounds for a 1 second burst would not be unusual.

What about a swathe type of fire? From one target to another? I would think you could keep the trigger pressed and hit antother target which is in a reasonable proximity to the other target in you arc of fire. Reduced accuracy and jamming should certainly be issues, though.

I think the ATN's for rifles should be higher, a 5 or 6.

The one problem with the sucess mechanics, however. The lesser amount of sucesses at long range in TROS IMO represent both decreased accuracy and reduced penetrating power. However with a fire arm, damage would not be effected much at all with range. The only thing to effect damage with a firearm much is where you are hit, and some luck. I.E. you were hit it the stomach, true but were lucky and the bullet missed any major arteries.

I think it is more realistic/logical to take the option of random hit locations when dealing with full auto fire. You aren't intently aiming at any specific body part when doing so, and you can't aim between shots because the time-gap is faaar too short for human reflexes to deal with that much recoil.

Another flaw I see with #of successes dictating how many bullets hit is this: what if a player rolls more successes than a gun is supposed to be capable of? Hmmm?

And also, couple that with an ATN of 3 and that's insane. Even using # of successes divided by 2. What if I had 10 dice to throw? That's basically telling me that 70% of my shots are going to hit.. all of those with a minimum damage of 7. If an opponent has average toughness(4), that's going to be 7 level 3 wounds. (granted your MP/gun pool wont be nearly that high, since you ARE shooting automatically...)

I like the random hit location thing alot better.. I just have to look into that more. I'm probably thinking on making a new gun-relating damage table/hit location diagram.. based on a D20, or 12, etc.(yea yea, boo me all you want) But I want more hit locations that the current piercing table can handle.
Thoughts on this?

The bigger dilemma is me struggling with "what matters most in firing a gun? A character's skill, the luck factor.. or what kind of gun it is?"
I think a good blend of all of these would be the answer.. but how the crap am I supposed to pull that off?

-Ingenious

Another flaw I see with #of successes dictating how many bullets hit is this: what if a player rolls more successes than a gun is supposed to be capable of? Hmmm?

And also, couple that with an ATN of 3 and that's insane. Even using # of successes divided by 2. What if I had 10 dice to throw? That's basically telling me that 70% of my shots are going to hit.. all of those with a minimum damage of 7. If an opponent has average toughness(4), that's going to be 7 level 3 wounds