After our first session of sparring duels my group and I learned some interesting things about the system. One of these is that rapiers are ungodly....ATN5, STR+2 damage (on a thrust)....one of the players uses one and is nigh unstobable. Now part of this is because all of us wear light armor and he was making attacks to the face. One hit would either kill or cause enough shock that he could kill next round.

Even when he made chest attacks at a character wearing a chain shirt he was still doing major damage. The low ATN was giving him lots of successes, and with a decent strength he was getting L3-5 wounds quite easily. I could see that against leather, but chain? Can you run a rapier through a chain shirt? Maybe, but I doubt it. Against plate? Certainly not.

So I was thinking about this a bit and it seems to me that this may be a tad inaccurate, essentially a rapier is the same as a fine bastard sword thrusted with two hands from an offensive standpoint (the higher DTN against heavier weapons makes perfect sense, but doesn't strike me as much of a tradeoff, especially if you have a buckler with the rapier). I'm having a hard time seeing a rapier driven through a steel breastplate...actually I'm willing to go out on a limb and say "No way in hell could that actually happen".

Wouldn't a rapier blade either bend or break if it was thrust into hard armor with any degree of force?

On a related note, I know half swording was a historically used and extremely useful technique, but in RoS it seems a bit more useful that it should be. I can't see the downside to half swording, basically its better all around: lower ATN, big increase to damage against hard armor, no real penalties. Only the shorter range is a detriment and that actually becomes an asset if you are close to an opponent.
It strikes me that if half swording were as useful as in real life as it is in the game then no one would have ever used a sword held in a standard grip. And we all know that isn't the case.

Any thoughts on either of these topics?

There's an unspoken rule for realism. Don't let weapons penetrate metal generally. Weapons just don't penetrate metal in general. Many were made to get around it, or were good at smashing it, or a lucky hit with a raven's beak might penetrate, but generally in real life it didn't happen. ESPECIALLY with rapiers.
There's plenty of historical examples of rapiers not penetrating mail small enough to stop the blade. Ignore the numbers and say it can't be done.
VS plate it may break, but more than likely it'd just slide off.
VS mail you can have any damage that exceeds the AV as blunt. VS some mail, like the usual diameter on a hauberk, a rapier that's pointy enough may penetrate lethally, but it's not going to actually damage the mail.

Downside to 1/2 swording- Shorter range, can't cut. (you can slice, but that's different, reduced DR)

In general, especially for plate, the high AR isn't specifically the rating of the armor for absorbing damage, but just.. preventing it. A hit on the chest can mean that a hole in the armor was discovered, slid between two plates.

Occasionally, this isn't possible. Wearing a full peascod will never allow a rapier, or most other heavy weapons, to pierce the heart. In that case, you may want to apply heavier AR in a given location, or simply revise the flavor text to fit the weapon.

Caz wrote: Downside to 1/2 swording- Shorter range, can't cut. (you can slice, but that's different, reduced DR)

I know house rules dont help very often but you get one from me anyway :)

I have made the rapier's damage the same as the sabre's damage; +2 vs no armor, +1 vs mail and +0 vs plate. This has levelled the field somewhat. Also consider the DTN the rapier get when parrying cuts from anything bigger than a tooth pick. I think this helps to balance the rapier out somewhat.

And never forget the stop button; if a PC gets out of hand, an assassin with Sneak and Camouflage SR 5 and a crossbow can easily put him out of your misery }:-)

Tash wrote: After our first session of sparring duels my group and I learned some interesting things about the system. One of these is that rapiers are ungodly....ATN5, STR+2 damage (on a thrust)....one of the players uses one and is nigh unstobable. Now part of this is because all of us wear light armor and he was making attacks to the face. One hit would either kill or cause enough shock that he could kill next round.

Even when he made chest attacks at a character wearing a chain shirt he was still doing major damage. The low ATN was giving him lots of successes, and with a decent strength he was getting L3-5 wounds quite easily. I could see that against leather, but chain? Can you run a rapier through a chain shirt? Maybe, but I doubt it. Against plate? Certainly not.

So I was thinking about this a bit and it seems to me that this may be a tad inaccurate, essentially a rapier is the same as a fine bastard sword thrusted with two hands from an offensive standpoint (the higher DTN against heavier weapons makes perfect sense, but doesn't strike me as much of a tradeoff, especially if you have a buckler with the rapier). I'm having a hard time seeing a rapier driven through a steel breastplate...actually I'm willing to go out on a limb and say "No way in hell could that actually happen".

Wouldn't a rapier blade either bend or break if it was thrust into hard armor with any degree of force?

On a related note, I know half swording was a historically used and extremely useful technique, but in RoS it seems a bit more useful that it should be. I can't see the downside to half swording, basically its better all around: lower ATN, big increase to damage against hard armor, no real penalties. Only the shorter range is a detriment and that actually becomes an asset if you are close to an opponent.
It strikes me that if half swording were as useful as in real life as it is in the game then no one would have ever used a sword held in a standard grip. And we all know that isn't the case.

Any thoughts on either of these topics?

I agree with Salamander, with regard to the rapier. While they weren't fragile little needles (based on handling real ones, and the writings of Fabris, Capo Ferro, et. al.), thrusts and especially cuts that land on armor would do absolutely nothing. Note, I'm a pretty big fan of the rapier, but if I ran into someone with any significant armor at all, I'd have to do the "full retrograde, continued pass" (i.e. turn around and run like hell). Even if my opponent was wearing a completely open-faced helmet and had no throat protection, if his torso is protected and he's even moderately skilled, I'm pretty much doomed.

I don't know how I'd handle this in the game. It's almost as if the chance of success ought to be decreased for a rapierist who encounters significant armor, but that's only a hazy feeling on my part.

Steve

Wasn't the whole point of the rapier that you would not be going up against people wearing any significant armor? While it was hardly what I would consider a court only weapon, it was an urban one where you would likely not find people walking around in full harness. I realize that this discussion is focusing on the use of rapier's against armor, but I feel that context is also important.

As for the torso protected and the face not... I don't think I'd necessarily see that as immediate cause for a full retreat. They are still exposing a big enough target that you would need a minimal number of successes to cause some significant damage to the face and head area.

If I recall correctly, a few of the Italian styles (Agrippa for one) had attacks that lent themselves to thrusts to the head.

[MKF]Kapten wrote: I have made the rapier's damage the same as the sabre's damage; +2 vs no armor, +1 vs mail and +0 vs plate. This has levelled the field somewhat. Also consider the DTN the rapier get when parrying cuts from anything bigger than a tooth pick. I think this helps to balance the rapier out somewhat.

Ashton wrote: Wasn't the whole point of the rapier that you would not be going up against people wearing any significant armor? While it was hardly what I would consider a court only weapon, it was an urban one where you would likely not find people walking around in full harness. I realize that this discussion is focusing on the use of rapier's against armor, but I feel that context is also important.

As for the torso protected and the face not... I don't think I'd necessarily see that as immediate cause for a full retreat. They are still exposing a big enough target that you would need a minimal number of successes to cause some significant damage to the face and head area.

If I recall correctly, a few of the Italian styles (Agrippa for one) had attacks that lent themselves to thrusts to the head.

At least two of my players have quickly picked up the idea of hiding a light shirt of maille under their tunics. One was doing so during one of our first sessions for reasons of law when he got attacked. I, as the GM, had the attacker strike a rather conservative blow to the shoulder. It would have thrown him into defense, but he went like "Wait a second...", grinned like mad and threw an all-out attack himself. The result was a bruised arm and two halves of opponent. Ever since, they go for this "trick", while expecting virtually everything. :)

So, an attack towards an armored, unarmored *looking* area might well recieve an attack the armor can take, while a visible piece of armor will cause the attack to be redirected or increased in power.

Salamander wrote: You are correct that the weapon in question was not merely a courtly weapon, in context of todays ideas. What was really meant by this comment was that those who most often carried and used such weapons were those who had access to the court. You are correct in your comment that it was an urban weapon, almost perfectly suited for the close confines of a towns streets. However, I do not recall endorsing the weapon for use against any form of proofness. The comment about maille is actually based upon a foiled assassination attempt against a de' Medici in the early 16th Century where a hidden byrnie of maille saved Cosimo's(?) life from an attack with either a stiletto or a rapier, I can't find which one.

In regards to a fellow retreating in the face of a foe wearing a byrnie, I would. Just because you can attack the head does not mean he cannot simply ignore any foynes to his torso and do you in with a simultaneous strike. Armour was basically a target denial device. He would not have to worry about his torso, while you still would have to worry about yours.

Having actually held a real and functional Rapier, I can't imagine anyone being stupid enough to purposely attack someone in armor. If you were cornered by someone in armor and were going to be mercilessly murdered unless you somehow miraculously escaped and the only sharp pointy thing you had in your possession was a Rapier, they'd pretty much be chalking out your outline a few minutes later in that corner unless you dropped the rapier or threw it in your opponents face as a distraction or something and then ran like hell and outdistanced him.
A rapier blade is very thin, and unlike a true sword (what most people think of when they hear the word) is somewhat fragile. The rapier was meant to pierce flesh, and maybe some light to medium non-metalic armors. If it was thrust against a solid piece of metal or unpierceable armor with any real force you'd pretty much be hanging onto a badly bent piece of metal or just a hilt connected to a very short piece of broken blade. When you think Rapier, think of something whose blade alone is roughly 3 to 4 feet long whose width is only about one inch at the widest part, and the blade starts off being MAYBE a little more than an eighth of an inch thick near the hilt and thins proportionally to something like a sixteenth of an inch within a foot or so of the tip, and thins to even less than that the closer you get to the actual tip. Temper it all you like, but the laws of physics only go so far.
Don't get me wrong, these blades WERE very strong and could take quite a bit of heavy punishment against skin, cloth, maybe even some light to medium leathers, etc,.... but a Rapier is something you probably COULD bend/break with your own bare hands by grabbing both ends (better have a armored glove for the sharp end if you don't want to get cut though) and flexing it too far using just your body strength. This was a weapon designed to duel with, not to do war combat with.

Actually, the first day this thread's title showed up, I resisted the temptation to post the following just based on the title:

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, whoa, ho, ha, ha, ha, ha,...swhoo....good one.

Rapiers were not just duelling weapons I guess would be the one correction I'd posit, especially the Italian versions. Italians did not so much duel as they simultaneousl attempted to murder each other. Having a rapier was also a good way to discourage would be muggers.

I guess the only other thing I'd say is that there were significant changes that occurred in rapier design depending on time period and locality, and I'd go so far to say that they were not all created equally or fighting in the same style. Would I choose one for a Germanic judicial duel? Heck no. Depending on the weapon would I immediately give up all hope for a reasonably skilled practitioner to find away around armor? No. It's a matter of defeating the armor not by going throught it, but around it. But then that's true no matter what weapon you are using (someone made a reference to horrible screeching noise of longsword being dragged across harness). I think where a rapier would come into its own would be finding those weaknesses and limitations of armor.

Thanks for all the feedback, I think we are going to implement the same rule suggested above with the rapier doing damage equal to a sabre, only for thrusts instead of cuts. That seems like a realistic alteration that still works well with the dynamics of the game.

Actually the Rapier's history is pretty bloody, but I don't think there is a single case involving armor (honestly displayed armor anyhow...they used to strip off shirts because some dishonest duelers wore light armor under their clothes giving them an unfair advantage...hard to hide armor when you're down to bare skin. I believe they also use to wash blades off with alchohol in some of the more good natured duels as well since a scratch could go septic and kill you back in those days). An excellent book on the history of dueling, swordplay, musketeers, etc,.....is "By The Sword". I forget the author's name off the top of my head, but he's some massively famous and talented Sabreur from way back. The book is very entertaining, and written well (ie. he keeps it interesting and it doesn't put you to sleep). It talks about lots of fencers from lots of countries (including the orient even). There were quite a few deadly women fencers out there as well, some so deadly they openly dressed as women instead of disguising themselves as men...and were bad asses enough to make anyone rue the day that they mentioned anything about it. There are amusing stories too...one fantastic fencer looked fairly androgenous so one wasn't really sure what the sex was, and cross - dressing for a while to evade enemies confused the issue further...it became a massive mystery that even hit the press and became massive topic of discussion. People were so obsessed with the topic that after the fencer's death, they held a secret autopsy to determine the mystery of the fencer's sex for once and for all. Most amusing.

Just got home and looked at the book.

"By The Sword"
by Richard Cohen
ISBN 0-375-50417-6

History/Sports category

To see and/or purchase some functional historical replica's there are many countless websites, but one such site I've been fairly happy with is:
www.museumreplicas.com

ok, just looked and they've re-vamped their web site...little hard to navigate and find pictures now. Take Historical Swords and Daggers link and go from there. I don't care for the new web page format. They used to have descriptions with small pictures you could click on to get better pictures...now you have to just go by the name and click on it to get the picture. Kind of painful. The one I bought is #1-862 Steel Swept-Hilt Rapier (but I bought the Brass version that I can't find there anywhere now. It's still in their catalog though, so it must be there somewhere).

They have a pretty good Rapier section. I actually bought one and was very pleased with it (Swept-Hilt Rapier & Main Gauche. I bought the Brass hilt version. The steel version would have been more realistic for durability, but since I'm not likely to actually need to USE it, I went for the "pretty" version). Nice blade, bone handle. Was historically used in late 16th century through early 17th century (that's late 1500's through early 1600's for those that don't speak "century" talk). The weight suprised me (very light), as did the Main Gauche's design (having never seen one before, and having only the two dimensional picture to picture it with prior to buying it, I assumed the whole hilt (including the curved tangs or prongs or whatever those jobbies coming off the hilt on either side of the blade are actually called) was all in the same plane, but when it actually arrived I saw to my surprise that they actually are at about a 45 degree angle up from the blade. In other words, if you were to stretch a string between the two prongs, the string would not touch the blade, and would be about an inch or so above the blade, making it a whole lot easier to use them to catch and trap the opponent's blade because they actually stick out like tongs).

Their delivery time was very quick (week or so I think), and the quality was great. I had no problems with them whatsoever. If anyone else knows of web sites that they've personally had good experiences with, I'd be interested in hearing about them so I can do some more shopping.

I once heard the Rapier in 15th century Italy compared to the Tommy gun in 1930s Chicago. Sounds like it's sort of an accurate analogy.

I think I need that book.

Not a bad comparison. Although officially outlawed, dueling was almost always pardoned, and over 1400 some odd duels a year was the norm in the height of the day. When the Rapier made it to the orient, the devastation was so massive they actually ENFORCED the outlawing of Rapiers because everyone was dying like water.

Really good book. It also covered some history on sword manufacturing and a ton of other things I'm sure I'm forgetting about.