Hi, everyone. I have some bad news that I need to tell all of you. No, Legends of Alyria isn't cancelled, but it does affect certain aspects of the publication of the game.

THE NEWS
About a year ago, I was contacted by Scarlet Jester, who told me that he did not want me to use the Diverse Lunacy system. He then essentially refused contact for the duration of this time. It was only last week that he finally got in touch with me again, and that was to confirm his desire that I not use Diverse Lunacy.

We discussed this via instant messenger last Monday, and, finally, I agreed that I would not use DL. Specifically, this means that I will not use Moon Phases in the resolution system of Legends of Alyria.

Now, do I think that Jester is right in doing this? No. Do I think that he can legally enforce this choice? Probably not. So why am I doing this?

WHY I DID IT

In the book of Matthew, Jesus said this:

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone wants to sue you, and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. And whoever shall force you to go one mile, go with him two. (Matthew 5:38-41)

Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says the Lord. "But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a dark; for in so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:17-21)

Keep the mechanic and color identical, just change the name. Call it "flux" or something. As a stat powers up the degree of universal force that flows through it is represented by it's degree of fullness. This also saves you a lot of time and energy and will allow you to maintain your honor as all moon references will be removed.

Having been in on this development for a while now due to geographic proximity, I've been mulling it over.

The key question is how to preserve the color of Alyria.

Moon Dice had color because they tied into the importance and imagery of Alyria's moons, particularly the blood moon.

However, when you think of the important imagery of Alyria, what is even more enduring is good vs evil as personified by Unicorn vs Dragon.

I would love to see the full moon replaced by a Unicorn Icon, and the New Moon replaced by a Dragon Icon. I'm sure some enterprising soul could figure out a way to make dice side sized icons. But ultimately even without the iconography, I would go with color.

White for the Unicorn / Full Moon
Black for the Dragon / New Moon

I'd keep the Blood Moon, as an image of a moon as its clearly an Alyrian derived image distinct from the diverse lunacy system.

That leaves us with Crescent, Half, and Gibbous.


So:



Full Moon ----> White Circle (ideally a Unicorn icon)
Gibbous ----> Half White Circle
Half Moon ----> Full Circle, Half White / Half Black
Crescent ----> Half Black Circle
New Moon ----> Black Circle (ideally a Dragon icon)
Blood Moon ----> Red Circle



I thought of using squares rather than circles to add further distance from moons...but half a square is not as easily distinguished an icon as half a circle is.


I think this translates the basic concept of "closer to full vs closer to new" into "closer to white vs closer to black" in a manner thats distinct from Diverse Lunacy

A second completely different iconographical concept.

Play off of the imagery of the Weeping Moon and the outsiders.

Use tears as the principle icon. Basically this would be like using your number idea but instead treating tear drops like pips on a d6.


Full Moon ----> no tears/pips, instead a sun icon
Gibbous ----> 1 red tear / pip
Half Moon ----> 2 red tears / pips
Crescent ----> 3 red tears / pips
New Moon ----> Red Circle (use the blood moon as the new moon image)
Blood Moon ----> dragon head icon, or a black sun icon

Valamir wrote: White for the Unicorn / Full Moon
Black for the Dragon / New Moon

I'd keep the Blood Moon, as an image of a moon as its clearly an Alyrian derived image distinct from the diverse lunacy system.

I thought of using squares rather than circles to add further distance from moons...but half a square is not as easily distinguished an icon as half a circle is.

I think Ralph has something here - you have strong enough iconography in the game that you can capitalize on it in your dicing system.

Incidentally, this gives you the opportunity to examine the distributions of icons and see whether you are happy with them.

Valamir wrote: I would love to see the full moon replaced by a Unicorn Icon, and the New Moon replaced by a Dragon Icon.

White for the Unicorn / Full Moon
Black for the Dragon / New Moon

All of you seem to be assuming that Seth is willing to just use the same system as always and just disguise/replace the "Lunacy" aspect of it.

I'm not sure if that's what Seth wants. It sounds like a "letter of the request" rather than "spirit of the request" sort of thing. What do you think, Seth?

Then again, Alyria is very tied to its mechanics, and for that reason and other reasons that Seth has forbidden talking about in this thread, I support the "disguise and continue" method y'all are attempting, here.

The question is to determine which elements of the system Alyria rests on, and which are (relatively) easily excised.

I'm not clear on what aspects of the system are clearly identified as "Diverse Lunacy", personally, and which are Alyria-specific extensions of that; here I'll assume that it's solely the dice mechanic that's at issue, and even more specifically the Moon Phases.

What's important about the dice mechanic is twofold - it creates a curve out of a linear roll, and it is more Colourful than numbers.

Re-marking a die slightly differently than with Moon Phases does satisfy the letter of SJ's request - in my previous post, I alluded to the possibility of reexamining the resolution system in total, specifically the frequency by which it generates its results. I wonder whether that angle's worth looking into.

For clarity's sake, the removing of Diverse Lunacy from the system has been defined as the removal of moon phases. So, actually, alternate iconography is pretty much what I'm looking for. The underlying system (and the probabilities) is staying put. That's why I say that this is primarily an issue of Color, not System per se.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

Crossposted with the wolf himself. Said the same I did.

Seth wrote:
The harm that this causes to the Legends of Alyria system is purely in the area of Color. The details of Virtue, Attributes, and Traits remain. Inspiration and Corruption are untouched. All that needs to be removed are the Moon Phases.

May I suggest the following iconography, which directly moves from good into middling into evil, with the outsiders are creepy morally neutral things:

Full Unicorn: (Full Moon)
Horn: (gibbous moon)
Human: (half moon)
Wing: (crescent moon)
Dragon: (new moon)
Blood: (blood moon)

I very much agree with Ralph--my first thought was unicorns versus dragons.

The middle steps are the problematic ones. I considered whether the garden (a tree) and the sea of mist (perhaps a ship) would be reasonable for the gibbous and crescent phases, although Ben's thoughts are good. I also think you can keep the blood moon, as although I don't know for certain what Diverse Lunacy looked like before it was adapted to Alyria, I do recognize that the blood moon was part of the setting before Diverse Lunacy was in the picture at all.

The other problem, though, is that all character scores are rated by these symbols, and so they have to be kept simple enough to be used on a character sheet and still be intuitive enough that new players aren't constantly going to be confused by the symbols themselves. It's perfectly fine to say that the unicorn horn stands for the second highest value, but it's not necessarily going to be clear to the player that this puts it between the unicorn and the human. (The same must be said for the tree, so I'm not picking on Ben's suggestion.)

It also strikes me that all scores in Legends are ticks off the center point (or really in some very strange sense steps from the end points to the middle, but that would be so difficult to represent by another means that it would take a lot of thought). Thus in terms of scores, Full is equivalent to +2 and New to -2. I don't know how that helps, though.

Regarding Ralph's concern about squares, it would be fairly easy to do quarters of the square--either diagonally forming triangles or using interior rectangles.

As a different possibility for color, the clock in the Citadel has possibilities, but I'm not sure how to use it. The extra hour when the clock is dark could replace the blood moon--either a dark circle indicating that the clock is shut down, or the silhouette of an hourglass keeping the time for that hour. I'm not really clear, though, how I get five other values--maybe setting the clock for two, four, six, eight, and ten. Anyway, it's an alternate color idea that would be easier to draw on the papers (set the hour hand instead of draw a picture of a unicorn).

--M. J. Young

MJ Young wrote: The other problem, though, is that all character scores are rated by these symbols, and so they have to be kept simple enough to be used on a character sheet and still be intuitive enough that new players aren't constantly going to be confused by the symbols themselves.

greyorm wrote: I don't believe any of the suggestions thus far can claim the same, despite their color and relevance to Alyria.

quozl wrote: Valamir's suggestion was to use a progression from black to white.

You're right. I completely zoned MJ's suggestion out. Sorry about that! I agree that would be exactly what I would be looking for.

Ralph's suggestion about the colored circles left me thinking, "Well, then why not just stick with moons?" It's just calling the current icons "circles" instead, which might put everything back into the same problem area for Seth (I don't know...Seth?).

greyorm wrote: Ralph's suggestion about the colored circles left me thinking, "Well, then why not just stick with moons?" It's just calling the current icons "circles" instead, which might put everything back into the same problem area for Seth (I don't know...Seth?).

And if you don't want it to look like moon bits, you could segment off the circle more like a pie (which would make it look rather clock-like).

The mists are also iconic for the game. You could go from No Mist for good as the unicorns come from above, to All Mist representing evil in that it's where the dragons come from.

Mike

Lots of good suggestions. Please keep them coming.

Raven is right when he notes that the original moon phases allow for quantification and obvious progression. This is something that is important in the replacement system.

I honestly hadn't considered simply shifting to a pie chart concept, but it could work. And I don't think that it violates the agreement with Jester. It doesn't have the Color factor, but it does have the intuitive progression that is important....

Have to think about it.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

And finally the rest of the thread clicks.

Clock faces....

And replace the Blood Moon with the Devil's Hour....

It has legs. Maybe it'll walk....

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

I was trying to envision how the clock faces would work, and I came up with a second idea.

The first idea, of course, is merely the lines of the hands:

• twelve and two replaces full• twelve and four replaces gibbous• twelve and six replaces half• twelve and eight replaces crescent• twelve and ten replaces new• twelve alone replaces blood


However, thinking a bit more about it I came up with a second approach which I think appeals to me on several levels--

• it would be easier to read on the dice (which was what bothered me about the other)• It would be a bit more intuitive, I think• It captures the light/darkness aspect mentioned (which is something I noticed after the fact)


Go with quarter hours, and have the sweep of the hour hand blacken the face of the clock.

• Replace full with Noon, a single black line at the top of a white circle• Replace gibbous with three, one quarter of the circle blackened• Replace half with six, one half the circle blackened• Replace crescent with nine, three quarters blackened.• Replace new with midnight, a single white stripe at the top of a black circle.• Use a full red circle for the Devil's Hour, or else use a black circle with a white hourglass over it.


In the book, these would be displayed as clock faces having numbers on them, maybe even with detailed hands. On the character papers and dice they would need only be circles with the appropriate sections colored. The current character papers could be made more convenient by scoring the circles with crosshairs, so that players could darken the appropriate sections easily.

This makes Noon all white and Midnight all black, preserving the black/white dichotomy, while the clock face idea is in the image even when it's simplified. You would then say I have force at noon, or insight at nine.

Is it crawling yet?

--M. J. Young

I like it alot, MJ.

It takes my white to black progression and instead of using a generic circle or square motif to portray it, combines it with the clock face idea.

I like how it makes the results very easy to read. The "more white" vs "more black" aspect that I was going for is much more visibly clear, done in quarters like this.


I would, however, likely use just a plain old blank face as the Devils Hour...symbolic of the time in which the Clock is stopped completely (i.e. not there)...although this might be difficult if converting a standard die.


I would also encourage, if going with the clock motif like this, featuring the citadel more prominently in the book. Perhaps as the first/largest block of setting location material.

Well, see, that's the problem that I have with the clock motif. It's too local to just one portion of Alyria. It's not one of the elements that are important to the setting as a whole.

How about a dragon's mouth open wider and wider? Eh, just trying to riff.

How about a bag that gets more and more open, it's black mouth threatening more and more to swallow things up? ;-)

See what I mean about too local?

What about the blood rain filling the side of the die more and more? Like a sphere filling up? Empty, quarter, half, three quarters, full - that sort of thing. Too doom-laden?

Mike

I'll certainly agree that the clock has that "local" aspect that makes it difficult; on the other hand, apart from the diverse lunacy mechanics, how significant was the moon to the setting?

Stop and think about this for a moment. For several years now we've had this close connection in our minds between the diverse lunacy mechanic and Legends of Alyria. However, the only moon about which I recall reading in the text is the blood moon--if there's another moon in Alyria that is not weeping as it passes overhead, I don't remember it. The entire relationship of Alyria to the moon phases has been because of the mechanics. They have nothing to do with any moons in the sky, other than that one.

How often does the blood moon come into play? I'm not sure. Apart from its place in the mechanics, I think it only comes up when someone wants it to be part of the story, and otherwise no one pays it any attention at all. There's no lunar calendar, no recognition that the moon crosses the sky every night, no mention of phases thereof. If you don't choose to involve it, it is not involved. Despite the fact that it is in theory overhead every night, it is no less "localized" than any other feature of Alyria.

The chief arguments for the clock faces are that they provide clear, readable, intuitive steps which are easy to draw on dice and papers, while they have some connection to some aspect of setting and so fit with the color of the game world. Sure, it's one feature of one place. The citadel, though, is the single largest place descriptively in Alyria--it is itself, plus the web, plus the clock, home of lightning jacks and the five hundred. Pheric may be more important; the Ark is certainly a huge piece of the whole; it is certainly quite possible to play years of games in Alyria and never bother with the Citadel. Yet it seems to be a huge piece of the history and a huge piece of the present.

And the clock seems to be right in the center of it, perhaps the one part of all of the Citadel that is inescapable to everyone who lives within it.

The clock is at least as important within the setting as the blood moon--which is to say, it is as important as the players want it to be, but always exists in the backs of their minds when it is not seen.

Ralph, I like the blank face for the Devil's Hour; but with the quarters notion that means noon will be all white and midnight all black. I suggested a red clock face for the devil's hour, which would on the die be the same as the blood moon, but if we're working black and white (as we will probably be in the book?) a red face is going to be difficult. I suppose a gray face works. In any event, my concern is primarily that it be something that can easily be put on the dice and easily read from them.

(And now that I look back, it occurs to me that you don't mean a blank clock face, but a blank die face--my error. I guess sticking a blank sticker on it would work.)

Oh, Seth--no charge for the idea, and no rights reserved at this end. I hope it helps.

--M. J. Young

M. J. Young wrote: Go with quarter hours, and have the sweep of the hour hand blacken the face of the clock.

• Replace full with Noon, a single black line at the top of a white circle• Replace gibbous with three, one quarter of the circle blackened• Replace half with six, one half the circle blackened• Replace crescent with nine, three quarters blackened.• Replace new with midnight, a single white stripe at the top of a black circle.• Use a full red circle for the Devil's Hour, or else use a black circle with a white hourglass over it.

Good points. In any case I think that a clock is about as doom-laden an icon as you can get, so it's very good from that perspective.

Mike

Ah...poop...I like the moon phases. Okay, just brainstorming:

foal --> colt --> unicorn --> hatchling --> drake --> dragon

Paul

Clock idea is cool.

Rather than going for progressive iconography, I prefer the idea of numerical pips, colored white or black to suggest the moral polarity, for the transitional levels, with a Dragon, Blood Moon, and Unicorn as the strong icons.

Best,

Blake

What about something like: Unicorn, Plus Sign, Equals Sign, Minus Sign, Dragon, Blood Moon? That's pretty straightforward to read.

Alternately, with the 3/3 thing you could use colors or the like for the middle three that were clear, if there's a clear color iconography in Alyria. All brainstorming off the 'numerical pips' suggestion here.

I think MJ's clock suggestion is the best one yet. It's easy to read and easy to draw. Easy to draw is very important I think, because the players need to draw the icons on their character sheets. (And everyone who's suggesting unicorns and dragons should consider this. See, I'm not suggesting Aardvarks, do I?)

But damn, I'd like to have moons. I have gone through so much trouble with my moon dice that I'll prolly stick with moons ;)
I respect your decision, though.

Or impose your own reconceptualization of what happens shadow-wise to the surface of the moon. Perhaps a shadow intrudes upon the lunar surface like a wedge:

born (is bright and whole) -->
pierced (has a narrow pie wedge shadow on it) -->
sundered (is bisected by a shadow) -->
remnant (is half black with shadow) ->
tainted (is half black, and the other half is now red) ->
blood moon

Paul

I'm still considering my choices, but I'm beginning to lean towards the clock faces (and the hourglass for the "really bad result"). My wife isn't persuaded, though.... :-)

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

Screw it...just use the I-Ching.

Ok, that's off my chest. I've been wanting to say it for a couple days now. Can't say why, can't even say that it's anything other than a flippant comment.