Funny, Ron mentioned this in the Little Fears forum, but it's an idea that I've been kicking around, primarily because of Ron's approach to Sorcerer.

What do all of you think about producing a game in PDF format first and then using revenue generated through PDF sales to support a traditional print run? Thoughts? Comments?

You know me, man. Those who wanna do it have gotta do it right. Match the quality of the big boys and you'll legitimize the format. I think PDFs are sweet, but it's hard to wade through the shite for the casual web-surfing gamer.

Huh... same as a bookstore in that respect, I guess. :wink:

Business-wise, you're dealing with much lower overhead. Which is sweet. But there's an argument out there that states you won't reach the majority of the gamer audience. Well, according to the demographics I've gotten from WOTC, the vast majority (around or above 90%, I can check if you want a concrete number) have internet access. Which is good, but keep in mind that information comes from a pre-paid post card. But I would guess that most do, even if it's not in their home.

The only other argument I can think of against it, I addressed in the first paragraph. PDFs are working toward legitimacy, but still aren't there yet.

I am for it, though, most definitely. As long as the book agrees (it's a artist thing, we've had this discussion before).

_________________
Jason L Blair
Editor-in-Chief
Key 20 Publishing
http://www.key20.com

[ This Message was edited by: Key20Jason on 2001-04-18 15:51 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Key20Jason on 2001-04-18 15:55 ]

Hey Jason,

Since you are "for it," obviously we're in agreement, but I wanted to address the topic of legitimacy.

I don't get it. Legitimate to whom? If people are buying my PDF on-line, then it's being bought and sold. If someone who's not buying it is stickin' his nose in the air and saying it's not "legitimate," so what?

This question only becomes relevant if we're talking about desired returns, whether in terms of people actually playing the game or in terms of numbers sold.

I suggest that the usual numbers of books quoted as "sold" is an illusion - it refers to the number of copies in the distributor-retailer chain, not to actual copies sold to end-users. If you compare the number of such copies of Sorcerer sold in the first quarter of 2001 (which is 35), I claim that stacks up quite well compared to the number sold to end-users of an equivalent RPG book in stores nation-wide, for an RPG that came out exactly two years ago.

In terms of actual value received, on-line publishing also compares favorably - publishing an RPG book is grossly successful if you've barely broken even, once print costs and con costs and so on are taken into account. You make money more consistently with the on-line method, even though you don't make much.

It makes the most sense to me, as I've stated elsewhere, to enter the market via the PDF, on-line method, and to consider the bookstore-book thing to be an add-on, not necessarily an obligatory one.

What legitimizes an RPG to me is whether people are buying and playing it. I can think of a lot of RPG books in print that ain't so legitimate, by that standard. I can think of a lot of RPGs that are "dead" in bookstore terms that are NOT really dead, by that standard. And I know of a fair number of PDF or HTML games that are as legitimate as it gets.

Best,
Ron

You're right, I should have defined "legitimate." It should not imply that I find PDF RPGs "illegitimate" (as I know you know, but just to say it straight out). I was referring to the masses. Those on the chatrooms and fora, those who write reviews, etc. Should it matter? No. Will some snub their noses at the PDF-publishers? Yes. Should the publisher care? I don't think so, but they might. I don't know if this is a concern of Seth's but felt that it should be addressed.

Personally, I agree with your definition of "legitimate." Games aren't made just to look pretty (though, unfortunately, that's what most of mine end up doing), they are meant to be played. And if people are buying/downloading/printing your webwork then I think you should be proud of what you've done. For those who don't think PDF is legit, I cite "Children of Fire," your own "Sorcerer," and Memento-Mori.




_________________
Jason L Blair
Editor-in-Chief
Key 20 Publishing
http://www.key20.com

[ This Message was edited by: Key20Jason on 2001-04-18 16:54 ]

Replies to both prongs:

PDF legitimacy: I think legitimacy will only be found through pushing PDF as a format. There's no way the world's going to wake up one day and think "PDF's a good idea. We should go with it." unless there's examples out there. Ron's been good enough to be on the fore-front of this, and I plan to release Waste Rangers, my d20 product/nightmare as PDF later this year. I think as more and more publishers use the medium, it'll receive legitimacy.

Cool PDF's to watch: the Rune preview earlier this year, Pelgrane Press's Dying Earth quick-start rules (both online and in print), the BESM quick-start rules (both online and in print), the WotC "old edition" PDF program (they're reprinting all their old 1st and 2nd edition D&D stuff as PDFs and selling them for $0-4 each), and WotC and Necromancer Games' "web enhancements" they've been pushing. None of these companies have quite jumped to PDF publishing yet, but they're testing the waters with these value-added enhancements in PDF.

PDF piracy: This may be exactly why more companies aren't jumping on the bandwagon. There's not a lot of good solutions here. You can implement security on PDF's: you can prevent changes to the PDF (this might be a good idea to prevent re-distributed copies with errors); you can prevent printing (this doesn't seem like a good idea--it might upset customers); and you can implement passwords (but why? pirates can send passwords to each other.)

Ron's method of community building works well (we think--we have no real idea of whether Sorcerer gets copied), but larger publishers aren't going to be able to pull the same thing off. This may be a boon to smaller independent publishers that can manage to establish community and lower overhead by using PDFs. Outside of that, though, I don't see a good solution for the present.

Hey,

The piracy issue remains an open question, for which I have no sure answers, but my current attitude about it might surprise you. There are two concerns here: duplication and alteration.

Duplication is only a problem if it seriously cuts into sales. Cassette tapes, for instance, are routinely duplicated privately, and videos almost as often, yet there is no sign that either medium is being driven out of existence because of it. I don't see any problem with someone printing out two copies of their Sorcerer computer file so that someone in their game group can use it. Sure, it's breach of copyright, but hell, so what? (Just don't tell me about it.)

It's the large-scale, distribution-level duplication that's the problem. The problem with any computer format is that someone might, for instance, simply put a free download of Sorcerer and its supplements up on their website. The computer format is dangerous because it makes this action much EASIER than for a book.

However, now that copyright situation kicks in for real. Should I get wind of this, I plan to sue this person to within an inch of his or her life. Sorcerer is protected by copyright, and what they are doing is no different from photocopying a book and then passing it out for free on a street corner.

Now for alteration. One of the "solid" or satisfying elements of a book is that one cannot alter it easily - doing so is tantamount to damaging its book-ness. However, tweak some content of a computer file and who's to know?

Of course, if one is only doing this to one's own copy, then so what? It's no different really than buying a book and marking it up. So again, the only problem is if the altered version is being made available on a large scale, which simply pops us back to the duplication issue.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Regarding the issue Paul brought up, given that Sorcerer hasn't suffered from piracy (assuming), I'm not so sure that any general good-will toward me as a person has played a big role. I tend to think instead that the piracy itself is simply not likely. Is Sorcerer such a valuable item that people will flock to pirate it? Probably not.

Best,
Ron

PDF publishing is becoming the way to go, particularly for independent companies. But if you are concerned about someone stealing your work or something, why not place it in a zip or rar file that's password protected?

adobritt

Hey,

The issue is not so much pirating or theft from the publisher's actual server, as duplication and distribution of a product owned by a customer.

A book, for example, is a serious pain in the ass for a customer to duplicate and distribute. A cassette tape is a lot easier, although it does take a modicum of equipment and time. However, a computer file is incredibly easy - it only requires the same skills and equipment as you needed to get it in the first place, and it takes hardly any time at all.

So I could (for instance) protect access to a download of Sorcerer with the highest-power security imaginable, and that wouldn't stop Pirate Pete from buying it, then making 800 copies for all his friends or putting it up for download at some website, or whatever.

I have heard of mechanisms by which a file may be rendered "unrepeatable," much like some video cassettes are ... I have no idea how feasible this is, or how to do it, and whether it's worth the trouble. For one thing, as I stated above, I am not sure Sorcerer represents such potential revenue that anyone would BOTHER pirating it; and for another, I'm fairly well convinced that parasites evolve faster than hosts, and therefore security-beating systems tend to be one step ahead of security-enforcing systems.

Anyway, those are my current thoughts on the matter. I'm interested to see what others say.

Best,
Ron

I think that Ron's dead-on with the fact that Sorcerer isn't a big enough property to be targeted for piracy. First, the game is very inexpensive. Second, it's a niche market at best.

Ron's only asking $10 for the books. That's dirt cheap for an RPG. Anybody who's interested enough in Sorcerer to want to pirate it probably isn't going to have an issue coughing up the $10.

The number of people who would be interested in a copy of Sorcerer is also very small. It isn't like Pokemon or D&D, where the product is highly sought after, and you might want a copy because your friend has a copy. The market for a pirated copy is so small that the pirate gets no real return for his effort in pirating the file. Chances are that in any play group, only the GM needs a copy of the rules. It isn't like there are extensive equipment or skill lists to wade through, or even game fiction. It's just the rules, and the GM can summarize those for the players very quickly.

So I think that there's no concern over pirated copies because there's no go reason to pirate Sorcerer. It's not worth the trouble.

Hi Clay,

Thank you for that STIRRING description of Sorcerer's worth ...

I agree with you in terms of the piracy issue, but pained pride demands that I mention that Sorcerer's end-user sales are extremely high and compare favorably with most book-format, in-bookstore games. I got a lot of respect at GAMA (unless that was merely courteous contempt).

Sorcerer was of course merely an example. My overall point, which I'm sure Clay agrees with, is that practically ANY on-line RPG is not worth the effort to pirate for purposes of sales.

As a side issue, a computer file format RPG (or anything else) is completely worthless to the collector. That's interesting, isn't it?

Personally, I don't have much sympathy for that sub-set of pop culture who hoard units of a product for future sales (although I am one of those who do like to OWN a copy of everything, it's for use & enjoyment, not re-sale). But I have talked with individuals who consider a pop-culture or leisure-time item worthless UNLESS it's conceivably collectable later. Perhaps that's an element of "legitimacy" it's wise to be aware of, so it can be debunked up front.

Best,
Ron

[ This Message was edited by: Ron Edwards on 2001-04-24 17:51 ]

I looked over Seth's first post on this thread and another point jumped out at me.

The PDF sales/profits for Sorcerer cannot be said to "support" the print run costs. The former is measured in tens of dollars; the latter is measured in thousands of dollars. What the on-line existence of Sorcerer did is/was (1) establish the market viability of the game, (2) establish both a fan base and professional recognition for the game, (3) provide the feedback necessary to beat the game into top shape, and (4) pay for its own existence.

All of these things certainly led me into print with a lot more oomph than many other games have enjoyed. Most especially, (1) my presence at GAMA was much different from others who've described their experience as "supplication." (2) Prior to GAMA, I was able to acquire the services of an excellent agent, who's been incredibly important in landing distribution for the game.

However, the actual revenue of on-line sales cannot be seen to contribute in any meaningful way to the several-plus thousands of bucks it takes to get Sorcerer into book form.

Best,
Ron

Just thought I'd chime-in:

Security: Security is a dubious concern to me. On the one hand, it can protect you, on the other, it can piss people off. For instance, I want to take my copy of Sorcerer to a friend's place. No copying, no piracy, just bring it to friend's so we can play together. I try to put the file onto disk, and BAM!, no go. I'm pissed. End o' "for instance". The same happens with printing-protection.

I'm sure that Sorcerer has seen marginal piracy. A group of four gamers chip 2.50 into a pot to buy the game, they print four copies and get it bound at Kinko's. Did it eat sales? Yes. Did it break Ron? No. Are these kids violating copyright? In some ways...

My point is that though e-publishing isn't the powerhouse (fiscally) that traditional publishing is, the no-to-low overhead compensates for it.

I've pushed Apophis to print smaller supplements online, rather than bind them all up, go to print, wait... wait... wait... see some kids playing with it. I think the hybrid approach of WotC and others, using e-publishing as value-added to hard copy core products is pure genius. It will work for them, it will work for anyone with a solid fanbase.

As to using e-publishing to sustain and grow into a traditional hard-copy format... I think it unlikely. As Ron was saying, "Sorcerer" was not put to print because he sold the magical number that paid for printing (though, if you think about it, he did... think somewhere in the ballpark of 500 copies at $10...). Anyway, my point is: e-publishing as a platform for growth should be used as a marketing and testing tool. At 5-10 dollars, someone can purchase a game online, play it, complain/praise it via email, and voila, you have a playtesting circuit and marketing research database. One year, a few hundred sales later, you're ready for print armed with a budding fanbase, a solid game that has been revised/altered based on feedback, and a distribution chain in place to whip-out small supplements to the screaming masses via the internet.

Life is good, gaming continues, and screw what the big guys are doin' in the corner.


Dav Harnish

Hey,

Dav and I are of course in agreement on these matters, but I thought I'd remind everyone of Sorcerer's FIRST incarnation: a shareware RPG. It wasn't a download. Instead, you came to the site, filled in field with your e-mail address, hit a button, and I got your e-mail. Then I sent a TXT (ick!) of Sorcerer to it along with a snail-mail address, and if you liked it, you sent me $5.

The amazing thing is that it worked. I recommend it as a start-up for any alpha-version RPG. The key, by the way, was getting a mailing-list going and sticking to that. That's where the fan base was created.

Best,
Ron

Ron has a great basis for a startup game company/person. I think I might demand the money up front, rather than "if you like it", but other than that, I am in agreement.

A thought for blending the two concepts:

Have the game be $10, normally, straight download. However, if the person tags in an email address, knock the price down to $8. The email address can be used to create a mailing list for updates/feedback. Everyone walks away happy. How many will begrudge the email address at the chance of saving a couple bucks? (Yeah, I know, many of you, just to be contrary...)

The point I'm making is: it takes about 5-7 thousand dollars to make a serious book. No joke. I'm even cutting a few corners here. We're talking art, layout (if you get someone else to do it), border design (whatever), writing (flavor text, or just another hand), printing, editing, etc. It takes about 20 bucks to make a good .pdf. The great thing about it is that even if it isn't as "legit" (and I use this very loosely), that means you can cut corners without too many complaints.

How many of you out there get your e-published stuff professionally edited? I would guess not many. A few once-overs by you and some friends... the magical and irritating grammar/spell-checker, and voila. Domain name, PayPal account (or whoever), and you're ready to make some money.

500 sales later, even at 5 bucks, you have $2500. Now, we all know this came at a trickle, no more than a few hundred during the hot months. You spent most of it on McDonald's and other games. BUT, think accounting here... you've paid for half of your print run for the first edition of your hard copy book. You spice it up with new flavor text, update what needs it, and you have a true as can be, wonderful book. Then, of course, you learn the pain of distributors, retailers, and slow payment... but you signed on for all that... you have a BOOK!

All I'm trying to say is that I think it is entirely feasible, from an accounting point of view, for an e-published book to fund the hard copy development, and at least some of the printing. Sure, most of us blew that moeny long ago, but hey, it was there. We might not have reported it as income to the IRS, but it was there.

Okay, ramble over.


Dav

Hmmm, my comments weren't meant to slam Sorcerer or its worth. Sorcerer is some of the best money I've ever spent on a game. Even if I had never played it, Sorcerer gave me great ideas to be used in my other games.

But there's no money to be made in pirating something with a current market of a few hundred people. The money for the pirater comes in when they dupe something that's got a market of millions, like Pokemon cards. Someone looking to make an illicit buck isn't going to waste money in developing a market, they want to steal a little bit of your market.

Clay

I've been doing research on electronic publishers (for an upcoming article on the Forge, natch) and ran across ENovel. This seems like it could be a revolution in breaking through the traditional publishing madness--if it could get some sort of legitimacy.

Would something like this work for RPG's?

Yeah, I know, Clay - your point and my post before it are in perfect agreement. I just got a chuckle out of reading the phrasing involved and decided to tease you for it.

Best,
Ron

Vaguely OT - piracy is a problem for "real" paper rpgs too. James Wallis told me he's found scans of entire Warhammer FRP books on FTP sites. He's also had people come up to him at cons with printouts of this pirate copies and brag about how they got them for free.

Sometimes, I think there should be a death penalty for roleplaying....

Clinton,

I think that what Ron's up to is something a whole lot like eNovel already. Of course, now Adept Press is entering that crazy world of publishing printed books, but if I understand eNovel correctly, they're doing now what Ron has been doing for years.

The only thing I see are really different is that it's acting as a publishing house for several authors, not just a single author, and they're considering putting books out in other formats.

Clay