(Anybody who happens to not know, "lines and veils" is a way to talk about players' comfort with in-game material. Ron introduced the terms in Sex and Sorcery.)

Emily Care and I made characters for her game in development Breaking the Ice. We were driving out to Tom's gargantuan game gala just past.

Breaking the Ice is about dating. You play a character who's unlike yourself but like your fellow player - so I was creating a woman and Emily a man. The idea is to get some informed feedback about your portrayal of your character. Emily's duty is to give me insight into playing women, mine's to give her insight into playing men.

So you brainstorm some words using a cool process and then you use the words to inspire your character. I'm not the brainstormer Emily is, so I was skeptical, but it worked. I'm sure we'll talk more about that part as she brings the game out.

Turns out that my character is a 32 year old woman who works for the county housing office. She has car trouble and she broke her leg skiing, it's still in a cast.

Em's character's a 31 year old man who works building houses. He volunteers time to Habitat for Humanity and has several birds as pets.

She broke her leg, he keeps birds. They date!

Emily's driving and I'm scowling at our characters. They're, y'know, completely flat.

"They could just go happily along forever," I say. "There's nothing to them, they aren't in motion."

"Well there's a last step," Emily says. "It's: what makes their upcoming first date problematic?"

Bam! it comes straight into my head. But I don't say anything. I keep scowling, for a long, long time in fact - Emily glances over at me more and more.

"Can't think of anything? Do we need to go back to -"

"Oh no, it's not that," I say. "This is a real moment of truth, you realize? I have just the perfect thing, but I don't know if I'd want to roleplay it."

"Well, that's good though, isn't it?"

"Yeah. It's: I'm a virgin, I've never had sex." (Isn't it funny that I felt the need to define "virgin"?)

Emily's eyebrows are up, though, anyway, in a "yeah, that'd make dating problematic" way. Also a "yeah, that kicks your character into motion" way. And definitely also a "yeah, that'll make the roleplaying more personal and intense" way.

I have this picture in my mind of my character, this woman, stressing and in almost a crisis over shaving her legs before the date, which I don't even tell. "Your turn," I say.

"My last relationship was really bad," Em says. "Not restraining order bad, but..."

"Why not restraining order bad?"

"Well," she says. "Men very rarely get restraining orders against women, you know."

"Sure. But I meant the other way around."

"...Oh shit," she says. And I'm like, ha! Put that in your what makes dating problematic pipe and smoke it.

I'm not really like that. But kinda I am.

"Oh shit," she says.

She's a virgin with a broken leg, he's got power tools and a restraining order against him. They date!

Much better, no?

But about actually playing this...

"I've got an idea that the players choose a movie rating to set the limits of the game," Emily says.

"So we could play this out at PG?" I say. With obvious relief, I'm sure.

"PG?" she says. "With all the sex and domestic violence issues? Are you on crack?"

"We could," I say. "I mean, we could."

"It'd be a fucking after school special, Vincent. You suck."

Owie. "...PG-13? PG-13 please? No way I'd play this an R. Way too scary."

She rolls her eyes and doesn't press me. Which sure, I suck, that's okay, but whew.

So I dunno, I don't think I have a conclusion to draw. Lines and veils. Just imagine me there in the car, turning over and over in my mind this woman's anxiety about sex and love and loneliness and dating. I don't even say anything, it seems so intense to me.

-Vincent

Hmmm... a 32 year old woman who is a virgin is probably not having anxiety about sex, she's simply not seeing it as an expectation for dating.

From what I've seen it seems to me that the longer a person remains a virgin the less they care how they lose their virginity.

This is, of course, assuming there isn't some psychological trauma keeping her away from the act - like molestation as a child. Which could go all sorts of awful in lots of exciting ways with creepy stalker man, particularly if she has that 'submissive victim mindset' thing going on. All right, now I'm making myself depressed.

Just some random thoughts, which may have no basis in reality. Hope I didn't 'R' it up too much ;).

Interesting. A 32-year-old virgin might also be one of life's natural celibates -- someone who is very passionate about other things and never saw a good reason to go through all that indignity with another person. Sort of like the Katherine Hepburn character in African Queen.

Or, she could be a very closeted lesbian.

Honestly, I can't imagine playing this game unless it was played somewhat for grim laughs, sort of The Bachelor Kills Puppies for Satan. But then, I've never played a female character; I just can't get my head around it. Running female NPC's, no problem.

DannyK wrote: Interesting. A 32-year-old virgin might also be one of life's natural celibates -- someone who is very passionate about other things and never saw a good reason to go through all that indignity with another person.

Honestly, I can't imagine playing this game unless it was played somewhat for grim laughs, sort of The Bachelor Kills Puppies for Satan. But then, I've never played a female character; I just can't get my head around it. Running female NPC's, no problem.

Emily Care wrote: It's curious for me to imagine not being able to play a character of the opposite gender. Its something I don't quite get. Vincent's strong reaction to just imagining the character he created feels very rewarding to me. It will be interesting to see if I can convey this to other folk, not so inclined normally.

What makes it hard to imagine really playing a character of a different sex or gender?

Um, they're gonna do it, aren't they? Aren't they?

I mean, y'all were just about to deal with that, and wham, we start this bogus discussion about cross-gender play (like we haven't beaten that into its perfectly obvious conclusions a couple of times here). Talk about sublimation!

C'mon! Are they gonna? Are they gonna right now?

Best,
Ron

cruciel wrote: This is, of course, assuming there isn't some psychological trauma keeping her away from the act - like molestation as a child. Which could go all sorts of awful in lots of exciting ways with creepy stalker man, particularly if she has that 'submissive victim mindset' thing going on. All right, now I'm making myself depressed.

Doyce wrote:
Hmm. I'm trying to think of a book or movie parallel to Breaking the Ice and coming up blank. Anyone have any thoughts?

Ron Edwards wrote: I mean, y'all were just about to deal with that, and wham, we start this bogus discussion about cross-gender play (like we haven't beaten that into its perfectly obvious conclusions a couple of times here). Talk about sublimation!

Hey! C'mon. They're gonna do it under these circumstances: a) Emily's satisfied enough with her resolution rules that she wants to give 'em a try, b) Emily catches me in another long drive or something where I can't weasel out.

To admit that yes, they're gonna do it right now would be to play before play, which is improper.

Chris wrote: While thinking about playing with the R rating, did you even briefly consider "cheating", like using satire, parody, spoofing, etc. in order to avoid an uncomfortable amount of disclosure?

Chris wrote: Would the scary level go up or down if you were to play with the R rating with someone you didn't know as well as Emily?

Hey,

The Virgin Issue: There is also the possibility that she could be a "technical virgin". This comes with a completely different set of problems (some of which may be even more warped than usual).

The "Do It" Issue: I dunno. Is the game all about the first date or do you follow the relationship? When it's a date (as opposed to picking up someone in a bar or something) there's not usually an expectation around having sex that night (OK -- at least *I* don't have those expectations, but I sense it's also a general policy in American society...I might be wrong).

And here's the other deal -- it's a first date. It can be a little awkward, but it's also a time when people try really hard to put a good face on things. What's going to tease out all the problems these people have? If the guy isn't a complete bastard, he probably won't act up. If he really does have a short temper well, you might be able to annoy him to the point of losing his cool, but I don't know how that really moves things along. The virgin issue is interesting but I think it'll be very tough to move that forward. And again, unless the guy is a complete asshole No Means No and that'll be the end of it, possibly without any explanation as to why.

I suppose you could rate it at NC-17 and have the No be ineffectual and I think there's potentially some powerful stuff that could come out of that, but...it's not what I game for.

Em: I assume this is meant to be played mostly in co-ed situations? Huh, actually it appears to be just for a pair of players, which is neat. BTW -- I totally call dibs on the polyamorous bisexual kinky woman because nothing will make a first date go more awkwardly than constantly running into people who remember licking your boots at the club that one time. Possibly more romantic comedy than serious drama, but still...

later
Tom

Tom, the game's about their early relationship, their first three dates.

Building rules that provoke us into digging in instead of backing away is what Em's challenge is, I'd say. Left to freeform, I'd scramble away like a scared monkey, our character's'd have a polite first date with no spark, no second date, and I'd be relieved but nobody'd pay to watch that flick. I'm totally counting on the rules to get me through my avoid-y suckitude.

Properly provoked, I can imagine them doing it on their first date. Or instead of their first date. But we'll see (provided a. and b. above, of course).

-Vincent

Vincent wrote: You play a character who's unlike yourself but like your fellow player

Tom wrote: BTW -- I totally call dibs on the polyamorous bisexual kinky woman

Christopher Weeks wrote:

Vincent wrote: You play a character who's unlike yourself but like your fellow player

Tom wrote: BTW -- I totally call dibs on the polyamorous bisexual kinky woman

Dude! If that's you're with, don't you have something better to be doing?

Ron wrote: C'mon! Are they gonna? Are they gonna right now?

bluegargantua wrote: And here's the other deal -- it's a first date. It can be a little awkward, but it's also a time when people try really hard to put a good face on things. What's going to tease out all the problems these people have? If the guy isn't a complete bastard, he probably won't act up. If he really does have a short temper well, you might be able to annoy him to the point of losing his cool, but I don't know how that really moves things along. The virgin issue is interesting but I think it'll be very tough to move that forward. And again, unless the guy is a complete asshole No Means No and that'll be the end of it, possibly without any explanation as to why.

Em: I assume this is meant to be played mostly in co-ed situations? Huh, actually it appears to be just for a pair of players, which is neat. BTW -- I totally call dibs on the polyamorous bisexual kinky woman because nothing will make a first date go more awkwardly than constantly running into people who remember licking your boots at the club that one time. Possibly more romantic comedy than serious drama, but still...

Chris Edwards wrote: While thinking about playing with the R rating, did you even briefly consider "cheating", like using satire, parody, spoofing, etc. in order to avoid an uncomfortable amount of disclosure?

C'mon! Are they gonna? Are they gonna right now?

Matt, that is fucking high-larious.

In all seriousness, I could see a comfort/awkwardness state change system really working for this.

[Off Topic:
BTW Emily, whether or not this is what you had in mind, I'm seriously considering this game as proof of concept for exploration of self, and possibly The Social Mode. Ha! Take that Vincent, you are your own undoing :). I guess you did say you would participate in the design of such a game... ]

Emily and I about got into a fistfight over that very issue, Jason, didn't we Em? I say: huh? Player authorship of characters in conflict across a moral line, commenting on a problematic human issue collaboratively in play, what's not Narrativist?

-Vincent

Room for someone to whinge here?

Ahh, I'll just push in anyway. I really don't like it. Not the mechanics or anything, but basically what it's mining for material. People are going to learn intimate details about each other as a game. Sounds great? Learn this, I don't share intimate details for the sake of a game.

If the material your mining actually then stops that mining, play breaks (in this case early), or relies on peer pressure to continue (C'mon on, its just a game, its fuuuun).

So how well it operates depends on how you evaluate intimate details. Some people have them but are willing to share them out whenever (I've met a few on public transport). But I imagine if those people had to pay $10 a minute to sit in a group and chat, they wouldn'y (barring group therapy and whatever that costs). Likewise I wouldn't hand out intimate knowledge for a game. It's like the ten bucks...its not that I wouldn't pay $10 a minute for anything in the world. Some things I would, just not a casual game. Likewise with intimate details, I wont 'pay' them to play in a game that wont work without them.

Perhaps the idea is that your making a PC thats like the other person means that ones intimate details aren't covered. It screams otherwise, to me, though. The uncomfortableness expressed about the rating especially...not to mention the 'you suck' for not casually granting access to such things.

I had much the same feeling with that narrative demo that Ron did to compliment his Narra essay. The part where it asks for a real life terrible event from everybody. Sorry, I'd rather pay the 'currency' of learning a 1000 entry random table or some such, than pay that much for a game to operate the way the writer intended.

Seriously, this is a design concern as much as having heavy math or tons and tons of rules you have to memorise, are. Some people aren't phased by hard math and thick rule books, but its still a design concern. Personal investment is right next to them.

Then don't play it.

I trust Emily and I'm not peer pressured by her. Don't let my tone worry you.

-Vincent

it would be interesting to discuss this... maybe in the RPG Design forum, though. I'm wondering if there's a Gamist aspect to this -- maybe based on evolutionary psychology -- or if it's more of a freeform exploratory sort of game.

It would also be interesting to talk about the mechanics for simulating a romantic comedy -- there's traditionally some reason for the heroes not to just fall into bed together; in a lot of more modern films in the genre, the rationale can be pretty strained. For that reason, I find most romantic comedies made after the 1960's excruciating to watch.

So, please don't let the doubting commentaries shut you down; it's a very interesting experiment.

As someone who plays roughly 50/50 male and female characters, and isn't afraid to take that into the relationship arena in play...

I would still be terrified to play this game as outlined. Not that I'm afraid of the issues or the boundaries... but that I don't think I could ever play this in a social setting without resorting to cheap stereotypes and goofiness-as-retreat they way some have mentioned Vince might have.

That said, I think it's a cool idea that would make a great "transition" between party-game and roleplaying for some, but would never work for others. Fortunately, I don't think anyone for whom it wouldn't work would be interested in playing, so that problem kind of solves itself, peer pressure notwithstanding.

Just my 2c. I'll be interested to see how it goes in actual play.

lumpley wrote: Then don't play it.

I trust Emily and I'm not peer pressured by her. Don't let my tone worry you.

-Vincent

Noon wrote: someone else talked about it as a party game. I'm just worried that the amount of consent required could be being underestimated. As the center piece of a party and/or as an introduction to roleplay, I'd imagine that having real impact.

Hey Noon,

Noon wrote: So how well it operates depends on how you evaluate intimate details. Some people have them but are willing to share them out whenever (I've met a few on public transport). But I imagine if those people had to pay $10 a minute to sit in a group and chat, they wouldn'y (barring group therapy and whatever that costs). Likewise I wouldn't hand out intimate knowledge for a game. It's like the ten bucks...its not that I wouldn't pay $10 a minute for anything in the world. Some things I would, just not a casual game. Likewise with intimate details, I wont 'pay' them to play in a game that wont work without them.

Perhaps the idea is that your making a PC thats like the other person means that ones intimate details aren't covered. It screams otherwise, to me, though. The uncomfortableness expressed about the rating especially...not to mention the 'you suck' for not casually granting access to such things.

Callan! I just realized this morning that maybe I mis-explained.

All the virgin / restraining order / keeps birds / broken leg / builds houses stuff is made up. We didn't reveal practically anything about ourselves, other than that I'm male and Em's female. The character creation process is very much like the brainstorming you'd do in a summer class about writing short stories, and it amounts to "make up a person with something to lose and something to win."

So my discomfort doesn't come from disclosing intimate facts about myself, because I ain't.

But that's not to say that your discomfort is misplaced or that playing the game wouldn't be revealing. In fact, I'd expect to reveal a lot in play - little secret details of my attitudes about dating, sex, women. Presented and exposed to comment.

Chris, maybe this is (part of) where the danger is. What if, unbeknownst to all, I'm secretly a pig? Playing this game will reveal it, and Emily might punch me in the head or yell at me, which would suck.

(Please, nobody think that Emily might actually punch me in the head.)

edit:

Crossposting, Emily wrote: As for the "you suck", I just want to clarify that Vincent added that for effect.

Vincent wrote: All the virgin / restraining order / keeps birds / broken leg / builds houses stuff is made up. We didn't reveal practically anything about ourselves, other than that I'm male and Em's female. The character creation process is very much like the brainstorming you'd do in a summer class about writing short stories, and it amounts to "make up a person with something to lose and something to win."

So my discomfort doesn't come from disclosing intimate facts about myself, because I ain't.

But that's not to say that your discomfort is misplaced or that playing the game wouldn't be revealing. In fact, I'd expect to reveal a lot in play - little secret details of my attitudes about dating, sex, women. Presented and exposed to comment.

Chris, maybe this is (part of) where the danger is. What if, unbeknownst to all, I'm secretly a pig? Playing this game will reveal it, and Emily might punch me in the head or yell at me, which would suck.

Vincent wrote: (Please, nobody think that Emily might actually punch me in the head.)

Emily wrote: Jason: yeah, I think it's a step in that direction. We'll see!

lumpley wrote: To admit that yes, they're gonna do it right now would be to play before play, which is improper.

-Vincent

Emily Care wrote: It's very interesting that this kind of game gets such a strong response about how intense and difficult it would be to play with strangers, while blowing folks to bits is easy peasy with any old body. Go figure.

Hi Christopher,

I didn't mention danger. That's another of the problems I have with this sort of project, it tends to lead to miss diagnosis 'You don't want to play...too dangerous for you and your scared?', then tying in with pressure to conform on the issue.

I mentioned cost. There are some RPG's that have a lot of complicated charts and rules in them, that I don't want to play. I don't want to pay the cost of doing/learning all that when it's just for a game.

Something which discloses personal details just in order to play a game, is more cost than the product/game is worth IMO. To me it doesn't dignify those details. This is just me, but then again, at a party you get a spread of people and not just those that are of the same mental set as the author.

I mean, aren't we supposed to sometimes really feel something when we play these games?

I can particularly imagine my one game group from college (where much of life revolved around dating and drinking and gaming and screwing and eating pizza and revealing more than would normally be kosher) playing such a game -- assuming for a moment that it ends up being fun, and having very intense sessions that would have colored our relatinships out of the gaming context.

Callan, cool, I think we're on the same page about what the game entails. (Let me confirm: you understand that I made a character who, like Emily, is female, but who isn't "like Emily" in any other way, right?) I think we're also on the same page about the game's potential for creating intimacy / revealing intimate details between the two players.

Given that, we each get to decide for ourselves whether it sounds fun, who we'd want to play it with, under what circumstances.

I got no prob.

-Vincent

(It's a one-on-one game, not suitable for a party unless you're all going to pair off, but I don't think that matters to the issues.)

Hi Vincent,

Well in terms of that confirmation, actually I did read it as being like Emily in some other ways. I got that from here:

Breaking the Ice is about dating. You play a character who's unlike yourself but like your fellow player - so I was creating a woman and Emily a man. The idea is to get some informed feedback about your portrayal of your character. Emily's duty is to give me insight into playing women, mine's to give her insight into playing men.

She broke her leg, he keeps birds. They date!