Topic: Shattered Prism Redux
Started by: TracerFox
Started on: 5/1/2004
Board: Indie Game Design
On 5/1/2004 at 9:56am, TracerFox wrote:
Shattered Prism Redux
I'm back again, but this time I think I just might have accidentally stumbled on a clear idea of what it is I want to do, and what I am looking for in the way of help.
So I will sum this thread up in one sentance:
I want to create a Universalis-inspired storytelling system to be used with a specific overall setting!
And now for the inevitable elaborations. :)
First off, I read through the Universalis website, read the description and some of the play examples. The text posed on the description and intent pages almost exactly describes the kind of gameplay I've been trying to capture (recapture if you know my history) in Shattered Prism.
Problem 1: Universalis itself is someone else's commercial product, I want to eventually sell Shattered Prism, and I am not cheap enough to try and simply rip them off.
Problem 2: I have been told by the person who clued me on about Universalis that that specific system might not work well (or at all) when you try to use a pre-determined setting. Considering that I allready have a setting; the components of which include pre-defined alien species, set governments/factions, set technologies, and other tidbits; Universalis as is might not be a good idea even if I could use it as a system for selling SP.
Tentative solution: I need to develop a storytelling system which is *similar* to Universalis, but which does not directly rip them off, and which will be suitable to play using a pre-established overall setting.
Goals and Specifics:
1. The overall setting of Shattered Prism is allready defined. The races available, the major political factions, the common technologies, and basic 'geography' of the space map are allready there. All the 'minor' details are currently blank, which means that they *can* be made up on the fly. This would include things such as specific planets/cities/locations, specific people within factions, etc... This will be the biggest difference between SP and Universalis.
2. Each player will be able to create a 'Personal Avatar'. This character within the story can only be directed by that player, though everything around each Avatar can be directed by all the players, the actions of each Avatar are their player's alone to decide. This will be the second big difference between SP and Universalis. I like the fact that Universalis allows every player the role of 'GM', but I think it important for each player to have a character within the story that they alone can direct the actions of.
3. The rules should be in the 'back-seat'. This means no complicated charts, tables, or calculations need be required at any point during gameplay. The mechanics should only be there to determine who has what amount of control (as my understanding of Universalis seems to indicate), and whether or not the characters can overcome a Complication within the storytelling.
That's about all I can think of for now, but seeing as this 'project' is just starting I reserve the right to make changes or additions at any time.
I will now open the floor for your comments, questions, suggestions, and other feedback.
Note that I will accept questions about the setting, but would prefer to keep any *suggestions* about the setting to a minimum.
What I am looking for are ideas and ways to make the above goals possible, so any feedback you can provide towards that end will be most welcome. Thanks!
Trace Erin Kern
Shattered Prism Studios
~Allways Remember, Everything is Possible!~
On 5/1/2004 at 5:32pm, Nathan P. wrote:
Re: Shattered Prism Redux
TracerFox wrote: 3. The rules should be in the 'back-seat'. This means no complicated charts, tables, or calculations need be required at any point during gameplay. The mechanics should only be there to determine who has what amount of control (as my understanding of Universalis seems to indicate), and whether or not the characters can overcome a Complication within the storytelling.
Sounds great. Lets hear some more detail here - what levels of control are possible? How often do they change? Are players competing for control, or is everything settled by consensus? Are you looking at token bidding, dice, cards, or something else entirely? How are Complications introduced, and how are they overcome? This is the most interesting thing that jumped out at me, and I'd like to hear more.
On 5/1/2004 at 5:47pm, Jack Spencer Jr wrote:
RE: Re: Shattered Prism Redux
TracerFox wrote: I want to create a Universalis-inspired storytelling system to be used with a specific overall setting!
...
3. The rules should be in the 'back-seat'. This means no complicated charts, tables, or calculations need be required at any point during gameplay. The mechanics should only be there to determine who has what amount of control (as my understanding of Universalis seems to indicate), and whether or not the characters can overcome a Complication within the storytelling.
Hmmm... I am just not seeing how these two things go together. You have a specific setting, but the system is a general storytelling-type system of apportioning credibility.
Why do you need a system instead of writing up your setting as a general RPG setting sourcebook to be used with anything from d20 to Universalis?
That sounds like a more direct route to what you're doing here, to me. I am just not seeing the system you want or need.
On 5/1/2004 at 9:02pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Re: Shattered Prism Redux
TracerFox wrote:
And now for the inevitable elaborations. :)
First off, I read through the Universalis website, read the description and some of the play examples. The text posed on the description and intent pages almost exactly describes the kind of gameplay I've been trying to capture (recapture if you know my history) in Shattered Prism.
Problem 1: Universalis itself is someone else's commercial product, I want to eventually sell Shattered Prism, and I am not cheap enough to try and simply rip them off.
I have it on reasonably good authority that the person who owns Universalis would be more than happy to enter into discussions regarding.
Problem 2: I have been told by the person who clued me on about Universalis that that specific system might not work well (or at all) when you try to use a pre-determined setting. Considering that I allready have a setting; the components of which include pre-defined alien species, set governments/factions, set technologies, and other tidbits; Universalis as is might not be a good idea even if I could use it as a system for selling SP.
Goals and Specifics:
1. The overall setting of Shattered Prism is allready defined. The races available, the major political factions, the common technologies, and basic 'geography' of the space map are allready there. All the 'minor' details are currently blank, which means that they *can* be made up on the fly. This would include things such as specific planets/cities/locations, specific people within factions, etc... This will be the biggest difference between SP and Universalis.
I don't know whether you've seen the actual rules for Universalis, but I don't think this would be a problem.
Uni works on a system of Traits. Mechanically each Trait 1) adds a die to the die pool for rolls in Complications, 2) Serves as a Fact of the game to set parameters around what players can narrate based on what's been established, 3) Serves as a measure of the importance of the character based on the idea that the more defined they are (more traits) the more significant of a character they are.
Everything in the game, from characters, to equipment, to locations, objects, pets, monsters, etc is simply a Component which is nothing more than a collection of Traits.
In base line Uni, the game starts with zero Components defined and every Component in the game gets created as play progresses...need a Troll, spend the required Coins to Create a Troll and assign desired Traits to it. Same thing for cars, buildings, space ships, even organizations and governments.
To play a game of Uni in a pre existing setting simply requires defining all of the key elements of the setting as Components with applicable Traits in advance. Players of Uni have played Star Wars Uni, and have converted existing d20 campaigns into Uni, etc.
One of my original ideas for Uni was actually to release "genre books" which would have alot of Components (and rules gimmicks) already predefined to kick of a Uni session with. A "Westerns" Genre book would have pre built saloons, and jails, and horses, and bandits, and piano players, etc and rules gimmicks on how to do gun duels, etc. In turned out that this stuff was so easy to do in play on the fly that such a play aid was entirely unnecessary.
Without knowing exactly what you're looking for I can't say for sure, but it seems at the moment to be entirely possible to define your entire setting in Uni, and play. Just as one would go about stating up the Millenium Falcon before playing Star Wars Uni.
For reference, I'd stat up the Falcon thusly.
Millenium Falcon
Light Frieghter
Fastest Hunk of Junk in the Galaxy x3
Looks pretty junky x2
Secret Storage Compartments.
Defense Screens
Anti Fighter Weapons x2
Previously Owned by Lando
Currently Owned by Han Solo
Wanted by the Empire for smuggling
Does that look similiar to how you were thinking of stating things up in your game?
2. Each player will be able to create a 'Personal Avatar'. This character within the story can only be directed by that player, though everything around each Avatar can be directed by all the players, the actions of each Avatar are their player's alone to decide. This will be the second big difference between SP and Universalis. I like the fact that Universalis allows every player the role of 'GM', but I think it important for each player to have a character within the story that they alone can direct the actions of.
Not a problem really. There are several mods on the website on how to incorporate avatar characters.
3. The rules should be in the 'back-seat'. This means no complicated charts, tables, or calculations need be required at any point during gameplay. The mechanics should only be there to determine who has what amount of control (as my understanding of Universalis seems to indicate), and whether or not the characters can overcome a Complication within the storytelling.
Yup
On 5/2/2004 at 3:10am, TracerFox wrote:
RE: Re: Shattered Prism Redux
Nathan P. wrote: Sounds great. Lets hear some more detail here - what levels of control are possible? How often do they change? Are players competing for control, or is everything settled by consensus? Are you looking at token bidding, dice, cards, or something else entirely? How are Complications introduced, and how are they overcome? This is the most interesting thing that jumped out at me, and I'd like to hear more.
Okay, I'll try to answer in order here.
Levels of control: Many things about the in character aspects of the game, the story in Universalis terms, can be controlled by the players themselves. In essence, each and every player has the opportunity and potential to be the GM about different aspects of the game. The only exceptions to this are that the overall setting of the game is pre-defined, this is the Shattered Prism universe which I have developed. Everything else is up for grabs: PCs, NPCs, specific locations, events, etc...
Speed of control: I've never actually played Universalis myself, so don't honestly know what to expect. The closest thing I have experianced is the kind of roleplaying I found on the message boards of a freeform roleplaying forum I was part of many moons ago. Seeing as this is the real 'birthplace' of all my ideas for Shattered Prism, it is also the kind of 'gameplay' I was hoping to recapture for SP. Long story short (too late :)), back on the message board it worked out that each 'player' was essentially GM for whatever scene their post dealt with, usually alternating back and forth, or round robin for more than two 'players', for each scene in the story.
Competition: Both from my own experiance from moons ago, and second hand descriptions of Universalis in play, I would say that players would be alternating between cooperation and competition for control of the story. It's a given that each player will have their own personal views of how the story should play itself out, and while a consensus could be reached, there will be times where the desires of player A will clash on *some* level with those of player B. This is where the competition will occur and must be dealt with.
Mechanics: At present I only know a touch of how Universalis works, and from what can determine it's pretty much run through the use of bidding tokens. I honestly don't know the strengths and weaknesses of each of the mechanics you mention, so I will likely be relying on the input of you fine people for that decision.
Complications: As in any collaborative writing excercise, every participant must be allowed to toss story complications into the mix. When and how this is done changes with every excercise. I don't know how I will personally address the hows yet. As of right now my 'progress' is to look at the ideas in Universalis and devise an original yet similar system. I don't have anything developed other than intent.
Hope that helps *some*...
On 5/2/2004 at 3:16am, TracerFox wrote:
RE: Re: Shattered Prism Redux
Jack Spencer Jr wrote:
Hmmm... I am just not seeing how these two things go together. You have a specific setting, but the system is a general storytelling-type system of apportioning credibility.
Why do you need a system instead of writing up your setting as a general RPG setting sourcebook to be used with anything from d20 to Universalis?
That sounds like a more direct route to what you're doing here, to me. I am just not seeing the system you want or need.
That's because the "system" hasn't been made yet. Heh.
To use GNS terms (I hope I do this right), all my previous attempts at making a system for SP fell apart becuase they didn't produce the type of gameplay I was *really* looking for.
I've really been looking for a Narrativist style of gameplay, and been designing with Gamist goals.
This is why I'm not going to use D20, or GURPS, or any of the many free 'systems' which also cater to a Gamist approach. They just don't do well when trying to hand more power to the *players* over the story being told. Universalis can do this, however even if I can work out a deal to be able to publish a Shattered Prism 'sourcebook' for use with Universalis rules, I would like to attempt to design my own system which is *similar*, but not a ripoff.
Does this help a little?
On 5/2/2004 at 3:28am, TracerFox wrote:
RE: Re: Shattered Prism Redux
Valamir wrote:
I have it on reasonably good authority that the person who owns Universalis would be more than happy to enter into discussions regarding.
Wow, words from the creator himself. Wasn't expecting you to find this much less comment directly.
Well, since you're here, would you be willing to email me and we can continue this particular discussion?
TraceFox@hotmail.com
Valamir wrote:
I don't know whether you've seen the actual rules for Universalis, but I don't think this would be a problem.
No, I haven't read the actual rules, cause unfortunately I don't own a copy yet. I think I shall remedy this as soon as I can finance such remedy. <grin>
I am familliar to some degree with the overall structure of the mechanics thanks to the info on your website.
I also this morning ran across the little rules gimmick where a pre-existing setting can be emulated simply by having pre-defined components before actual play.
If I were to run Shattered Prism using Universalis directly, this is exactly how I'd do it.
Now as I mentioned when I responded to Jack, even if I can work out a deal with you, I would like to make the attempt to craft a system specific to SP which is similar and inspired by Uni, but isn't a direct ripoff.
Hopefully you won't begrudge me the attempt? :)
Valamir wrote:
Without knowing exactly what you're looking for I can't say for sure, but it seems at the moment to be entirely possible to define your entire setting in Uni, and play. Just as one would go about stating up the Millenium Falcon before playing Star Wars Uni.
Does that look similiar to how you were thinking of stating things up in your game?
Yep. If I were to use Uni itself for SP that's how I'd end up doing it. Just see the above note.
Valamir wrote:2. Each player will be able to create a 'Personal Avatar'. This character within the story can only be directed by that player, though everything around each Avatar can be directed by all the players, the actions of each Avatar are their player's alone to decide. This will be the second big difference between SP and Universalis. I like the fact that Universalis allows every player the role of 'GM', but I think it important for each player to have a character within the story that they alone can direct the actions of.
Not a problem really. There are several mods on the website on how to incorporate avatar characters.
I'll have to peruse those mods and see what I find then.
Thank you so much for popping in Valamir! I really do appreciate this and any future assistance you can give.
On 5/5/2004 at 5:10pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Shattered Prism Redux
This is very odd.
I've been working with Trace on Shattered Prism for quite a while now. To the tune of dozens of posts on the SPrism Yahoo Group.
Trace, I guess you didn't realize that I was the other author of Universalis? Did I mention it, and that's how you got to it? Or was it you visiting IndieRpgs during one of our Friday night netgaming sessions on IRC when somebody else told you about the game?
Seems like too much a of a coincidence, but... :-)
Mike
On 5/6/2004 at 1:29am, TracerFox wrote:
RE: Shattered Prism Redux
Mike Holmes wrote: This is very odd.
I've been working with Trace on Shattered Prism for quite a while now. To the tune of dozens of posts on the SPrism Yahoo Group.
Trace, I guess you didn't realize that I was the other author of Universalis? Did I mention it, and that's how you got to it? Or was it you visiting IndieRpgs during one of our Friday night netgaming sessions on IRC when somebody else told you about the game?
Seems like too much a of a coincidence, but... :-)
Mike
Actually I heard that you worked on it, but didn't know you were a co-author.
As for how I heard of it, Josh on the IRC channel clued me into it.
On 5/6/2004 at 4:14am, Valamir wrote:
RE: Shattered Prism Redux
Actually I heard that you worked on it, but didn't know you were a co-author.
As for how I heard of it, Josh on the IRC channel clued me into it.
Yup, Mike's name is on the front cover right alongside mine.
Co-designer is probably more accurate than co-author as all of the blame for the actual writing is on me.
Game wouldn't have been written without him. Or...perhaps it might have been...but it would have sucked.
On 5/6/2004 at 2:19pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Shattered Prism Redux
Yeah, my bad. Author is the wrong term to have used. The game design was a collaboration on our part, and Ralph wrote the text.
But the point is that, if I'd actually suspected from your design notes that what you wanted was something as radical as Universalis, I would have suggested it right off. As it was, your design was so traditional that I was just working on modifying it with you into something that was up to par with newer designs - as opposed to something as way out there as Universalis.
Interestingly, I thought that you'd reached a very interesting point in the design, at last look. Here's what Trace had worked out to the best of my memory:
The game was going to be a team based mission oriented game. The twist to it, however, was that characters and the team would have reputation scores and the like that were tradable back and forth, and that would link the team to certain ideals decided at the outset. Sort of a group ethic that would drive the overall sorts of adventures that the team would be involved in troubleshooting. Then, over time, these mechanics would open doors into new scales of conflict, leading ever closer to solving the main metagame premises of the setting.
Trace had settled on a nifty template system for character generation, and a lot of work had been done on how the setting was going to be established (lots and lots of sci-fi worlds). Really some pretty good stuff in there. He'd managed to get a clear set of goals stated, and was working steadily to those.
This change seems like a huge left turn departure. I mean, you'd mentioned, Trace, that you had enjoyed that freeform game that you played, but you never indicated once that you were at all comfortable with anything less than the full schmear of mechanics for the game.
So I guess this is me wondering if you've really established a new vision for the game, or if you're just starting over in order to avoid ever completing the project? If you reassure me that you've really "seen the light" on this, then I'll have no problems continuing to help. But if you're going to continue to dramatically change the vision on the game with regularity, I think you'll find that it'll be hard to get people to work on it with you.
Mike
On 5/6/2004 at 11:16pm, TracerFox wrote:
RE: Shattered Prism Redux
Mike Holmes wrote: So I guess this is me wondering if you've really established a new vision for the game, or if you're just starting over in order to avoid ever completing the project? If you reassure me that you've really "seen the light" on this, then I'll have no problems continuing to help. But if you're going to continue to dramatically change the vision on the game with regularity, I think you'll find that it'll be hard to get people to work on it with you.
Mike
I'll be honest here Mike, and I hope you don't take offense to anything here, becuase I really do appreciate all the help you and Clash have provided. It has truly been invaluable in examining what it is I am trying to accomplish with this insanity I call Shattered Prism.
I have every intention to continue developing the 'Freelancers' variant of SP, but as a sub-set within an overall project.
That overall project is the real goal of why I am doing what I'm doing:
1. I want to gain some exposure for my creations, and see what entertainment merit they have. In other words, I want to show people what I've made and see if they like it. Not for recognition, fame, or money (although any of the above would be nice), but mostly just to free my creations from the solitude of just *my* mind and to leave something of a *legacy*.
2. In the process of 'releasing' my creations, I am hoping to create something that I can use myself to recapture some of the fun and, for lack of a better word, wonder that I experianced roleplaying on Rhy-Din (the aforementioned freeform forum). Call it psychologically imbalanced if you like, but I invested a lot of emotion in RP there and I truly miss that 'home' of mine.
This experiment with Universalis is at the moment just that, an experiment into what amounts to collaborative storytelling within a pre-defined setting, in this case the SP universe.
The freeform RP I was involved in before was essentially the same thing, collaborative storytelling within the framework of the Rhy-Din setting, using characters you create and evolve as things go on.
If Universalis, or a new system inspired by Uni, can help recapture some of this, then I personally feel it worthwhile to pursue the experiment to it's conclusion.
As for why I never showed much impulse to pursue this before? I never knew it existed. As I've stated before my RPG experiances are pretty much limited to Rhy-Din, a few social MU*s I'm on, and 'traditional' RPGs.
I'd been locked into the misconception that Shattered Prism was going to be "better" as a traditional RPG with more or less 'traditional' mechanics mentality.
Does this help clear things up at all?