Topic: Sorcerer Question: Building the Art-Deco Gun
Started by: Eric J-D
Started on: 5/5/2004
Board: Adept Press
On 5/5/2004 at 5:44pm, Eric J-D wrote:
Sorcerer Question: Building the Art-Deco Gun
Apologies from the start about the weird subject line, but those of you familiar with the series of "Art-Deco Melodrama" threads will understand what I am talking about. As I mentioned in another thread, I am gearing up to begin a Sorcerer game very soon (hooray, the end of term is almost in sight), and so I have been preparing by reading the aforementioned threads just to be sure I don't royally screw the pooch so to speak.
Now, I feel like I have combat and currency down, but I am still a bit boggled whenever I think about designing demons. As this is a pretty integral aspect of the game, I thought it best to consult the wiser and more experienced of you for some help.
Here's my problem: just when I think I begin to understand Demon abilities, I encounter something that throws all of my thinking about them for a loop. Reading the "Art-Deco Melodrama 2" thread was the latest occasion for this.
So that I can be sure we are all working with the specific example, I'll quote the relevant parts of that thread. [My apologies if quoting like this is bad etiquette. I would create one of those nifty little hotlinks labeled "this thread" and make the font a different color and all that, but my web-fu is some seriously weak-assed shit. Anyone who wishes to PM me and tell me how to do this--and be sure to spell it out as though you were talking to a child mind you, because in this area I fear I am a bear with little brain--would earn my eternal gratitude]. Okay, so here's Ron's description of this very nifty gun:
So the gun is a demon. Perhaps old Raner has one foot in sorcery, perhaps just enough to Bind the gun originally. Let's make the demon up:
Its abilities are obviously Lethal Special Damage, Ranged , and Perception (intense desires). I decide that a person may roll Will vs. his own Humanity to bring the desire into the necessary "intensity," and then the demon rolls its Power vs. Humanity to perceive it (with victories from the first roll as a bonus), and its victories from that roll become bonuses for the Damage attack roll. Cool!
Object demon (gun); Stamina 4, Will 5, Lore 3, Power 5; Desire Ruin, Need for stories of injustice.
Physically, it's just a gun. The only sneaky thing is that it can shoot whoever is the desired target without being pointed right at him (it still has to be fired; the Ranged and Damage abilities are conferred to a person). Nice - I decide to call it Kaww.
Now this is admittedly a very cool effect. A little later in the thread, Ron describes his plans for the gun:
Think about what's ABOUT to happen too, specifically that Hilda's going to nail van Graysloke too. Maybe someone can be talking to van Graysloke right when his head blows up from Hilda's gun, fired miles away.
Again, this is really cool. My problem, however, is that I don't know how the Demon abilities support it. When I read the section on Demon abilities in Sorcerer and compare it with the desired effect described above, I find myself getting very confused. According to the text for the ability Ranged:
One attack (some form of Special Damage, Hold, or Hop) can be made at a distance. The demon's Power sets how far the attack may go, in meters.
I read this to mean that the maximum distance at which the Art-Deco gun could use its Special Damage attack is 5 meters, so how can it be used in the van Graysloke example to kill someone miles away? Am I missing something important about the Ranged ability here? Would adding Travel to the demon's list of abilities resolve the problem? Or is there actually no problem at all here, and the difficulty I am having lies only in my own mind?
It is difficult puzzles like these that make me hesitate and even to postpone running Sorcerer out of fear that I just don't have a good enough understanding of the rules to be able to GM it well.
So, any takers. All advice would be greatly appreciated.
Eric
On 5/5/2004 at 5:58pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Sorcerer Question: Building the Art-Deco Gun
Hello,
Perception is the main addition you're looking for. The gun has to "see" the target.
The range-in-meters thing is either (a) disposable or (b) interpretable as requiring Travel, as you see fit. Quite bluntly, I hate that particular sentence with a passion and consider it a serious design error.
Best,
Ron
On 5/6/2004 at 1:17am, Nev the Deranged wrote:
Abilities
There have been innumerable threads on demon Abilities and what special effects they can support.
I more or less assume all the demon Abilities listed in the book are "tweak to taste". Or, just make up a new Ability that works exactly the way you want it to.
Don't forget though, that there are some powers or effects that the game isn't really designed to support- things that would in essence "break" the game, whether mechanically or thematically. Especially if they A) wreck the balance of power inherent in the relationship between demon and sorcerer, or B) just do something that undermines the themes built into the game (of which A is pretty much the biggie example).
Not sure if this is helpful, as I've suddenly gone into an Oreo coma and have lost track of the specifics of your post... going to go collapse now.
On 5/6/2004 at 2:01am, Eric J-D wrote:
RE: Sorcerer Question: Building the Art-Deco Gun
Ron,
You wrote:
Perception is the main addition you're looking for. The gun has to "see" the target.
The range-in-meters thing is either (a) disposable or (b) interpretable as requiring Travel, as you see fit.
Thanks for this. I actually did grasp that Perception was one of the crucial components of the demon object, so perhaps I am not as hopeless as I imagined.
In my original post, I was tempted to propose my own solution to the problem but copped out at the last minute for fear of looking like an idiot. My solution was to give the gun Travel. I imagined a weird teleport ability that would send the bullet across the necessary distance and into the target's head. Is this what you were thinking?
Boy, if I am thinking along the same wavelength as the eminent Mr. Edwards, perhaps ther is hope for my game yet.
The thing that keeps blowing my mind however is this: wouldn't such a demon be an absolute nightmare in the hands of a PC? I mean, in effect it is a long-distance killing machine, permitting the user to blow away anyone against whom he or she has a powerful grudge.
Now, this being Sorcerer and all that, part of me thinks, "Let them have it." First, I would think that using the gun would represent a significant risk to Humanity by almost any definition of that term, but especially if Humanity represented empathy or compassion. There is just something so cold, so chilling about the idea of killing someone at such a distance that it strikes me as a perfect opportunity for a Humanity roll. Second, just imagine what might happen when the demon shows its first signs of rebellion. Lots of possibilities here. The gun goes off and appears to fire, but unbeknownst to the character the bullet misses its target. This alerts the target of the assasination that someone out there is trying to kill him or her. Imagine the surprised looks when the believed-to-be-dead target shows up on the character's doorstep.
How would that be for a Bang?
So thanks for the ideas, Ron.
Eric
On 5/6/2004 at 2:25am, Eric J-D wrote:
RE: Sorcerer Question: Building the Art-Deco Gun
Nev,
Thanks for the fresh perspective. I definitely want to avoid "breaking the game" and I confess that when I first read the "Art-Deco melodrama" thread this was foremost in my mind. My initial reaction to this demon was, "Shit! That's just scary. No way I would let a player have that much power."
Of course I immediately stopped myself and began to consider whether my fear might be unfounded. After all, Sorcerer entrusts players with a considerable amount of power from the very beginning. So why should I fear giving the character the gun? So what if the character takes out a major NPC or two? After all, the game is not about the NPCs; it's about the characters/players. So long as Premise is being addressed and a good story is being built that takes the Premise seriously, who cares how many people on the relationship map go down by the gun?
I think once I reminded myself of this, it became easier to think about going with the concept behind the demon. The real kick in the ass was that I didn't think I understood how the Ranged ability would create the desired effect. Ron's post leads me to think that perhaps I was correct and that Travel might be necessary to make it all work.
Thanks again for the advice. It is always helpful for me to hear from other folks with more experience of the game in actual play.
Eric
On 5/6/2004 at 2:45am, Nev the Deranged wrote:
Heh
I just realized... the art-deco gun demon described already exists... it's the Emperor (I think... someone correct me if I'm wrong) Stand used by the cowboy character (who's name I can't recall, dammit) in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. It's a golden gun that magically appears in his hand, and the bullets can track the target.
For those who don't know what the hell I'm talking about, a Stand (short for Stand-In) is what you'd get if you let Sorcerer players make fully-controlled utility demons... basically spirit-forms that rise out of the person and can perform a limited set of special powers.
** EDIT: Oh yeah, what about Farslayer from Fred Saberhagen's Book of Swords? You spin around, call out the name of the target, and let fly... of course you don't get the sword back afterwards... ***
None of which has nothing to do with anything... stupid Oreo brain fog...
Glad I could help.
And never forget- one of the best ways to deal with uppity, super-powerful PCs... is to throw in a Super-Mega-Badass villain to smack them around. ^_^
On 5/6/2004 at 4:57am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Sorcerer Question: Building the Art-Deco Gun
Hey,
Nev, I love ya man, but you're gumming up the thread a little. Let's stick with rules and stuff, OK? A good rule of thumb is, when you type something and then feel compelled to acknowledge that it's silly and then provide some funny explanation, it's a good sign that you should just abort the post.
Eric, I don't think the gun needs Travel at all. The Perception will do the job, as well as an application of Range which ignores the fucked-up and should-be-executed mention of "meters" in the rules. Range ought to be restricted only to the limits of the demon's perception, which is human-like unless they have a Perception ability.
And yeah, it's "powerful." Sorcerer is about wielding power. If you think that gun is nasty, re-read those necromancy threads and check out Beth's character's demon, Veniamin.
Best,
Ron
Best,
Ron
On 5/7/2004 at 12:08am, Nev the Deranged wrote:
RE: Sorcerer Question: Building the Art-Deco Gun
Duly noted. This is me shutting up. =X
On 5/7/2004 at 1:42am, Eric J-D wrote:
RE: Sorcerer Question: Building the Art-Deco Gun
Ron,
I think I have it, but please tell me if I am wrong. The gun doesn't need Travel to 'port the bullet and all that because fundamentally the gun isn't a gun it's a demon. It could be an Art-Deco Dildo (sorry if this offends but the spirit of alliteration seized me) with Lethal Special Damage, Ranged, and Perception and do the same thing if so desired. So long as the demon can "see" the target, it can deliver the Lethal Special Damage via its Ranged ability (corrected per your post), correct? In other words, it doesn't matter whether a projectile is involved at all. What's at issue isn't how the gun delivers the projectile from point A to point B, but whether or not the demon can sense its target.
Thanks.
Eric
P.S. I'll be sure to check out the necromancy threads again. My focus at first has been on the handouts, which are excellent by the way.
On 5/7/2004 at 4:05am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Sorcerer Question: Building the Art-Deco Gun
Dead on target, Eric, pun intended.
And Nev, you are now receiving a deep bow of respect. You are a valued Sorcerer Dude.
Best,
Ron
On 5/7/2004 at 4:44pm, Michael S. Miller wrote:
RE: Sorcerer Question: Building the Art-Deco Gun
Ron Edwards wrote:
The range-in-meters thing is either (a) disposable or (b) interpretable as requiring Travel, as you see fit. Quite bluntly, I hate that particular sentence with a passion and consider it a serious design error.
I know you've said repeatedly that there will be no Sorcerer Revised, but have you considered adding this and other serious but minor design errors (like the mention of "minutes" in Shapeshift, I'd assume) to the Errata?
On 5/7/2004 at 5:04pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Sorcerer Question: Building the Art-Deco Gun
Sure, not a bad idea. They wouldn't be Errata, precisely, so much as "If I knew then what I know now" points.
One of these days.
Best,
Ron