Topic: die mechanic
Started by: frictorious
Started on: 5/8/2004
Board: Indie Game Design
On 5/8/2004 at 10:52am, frictorious wrote:
die mechanic
I've been lurking here for a while, and I've learned alot from the threads and essays. So here's my first post:
I have a couple of die mechanics I want to try for a game I wish to make (I keep changing my mind on exact premise, theme, setting, etc.), so I am trying to decide on something that will appeal most to those that will be using it (probably just me and those I game with). While I would very much like to publish an RPG, that is not my goal here.
Characters have 8 primary Attributes (pretty usual stuff) rated 1-10, from which are derived several Abilities rated 1-5. These are what are typically used for most skill checks, and include things like Fighting, Aim, Manipulation, Repair, Endurance, etc. The rating determines which die is rolled:
1=D4, 2=D6, 3=D8, 4=D10, 5=D12
The number of dice rolled is equal to the skill rank (based mostly on experience), and the highest die is the one that matters. All checks are done with opposed rolls, Take Highest.
I'm working on some other rules for things like multiple actions, determining how many and what type die to roll for what are usually "static tests" (like climbing a wall, or fixing a machine), adding extra bonuses for special abilities/talents, and penalties for wounds or flaws.
Anyway, what my big question is, what type of play do you think this die mechanic will best represent or simulate? I'm looking for things like Gritty, Cinematic, Fast, Complex, Clunky, etc. Mabey even GNS references.
I know that coming up with a system first and setting and premise later isn't the best way to go about making a game, but I'm better with what I consider the analytical stuff (game mechanics) than the creative stuff (setting, premise, etc.)
I'm assuming that there's some folks here with experience with Take Highest mechanics, all opposed checks, or mechanics using different sized die for task resolution. Many of you will probably detect influences from Silhouette and Jadeclaw (although I've read about them, I've never played or even owned either). If more information is needed, or better explanation please ask.
Thanks in advance,
-Craig
On 5/8/2004 at 11:20am, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
Re: die mechanic
frictorious wrote: I've been lurking here for a while, and I've learned alot from the threads and essays. So here's my first post:
Welcome to the Forge, Frictorious.
Characters have 8 primary Attributes (pretty usual stuff) rated 1-10, from which are derived several Abilities rated 1-5. These are what are typically used for most skill checks, and include things like Fighting, Aim, Manipulation, Repair, Endurance, etc. The rating determines which die is rolled:
1=D4, 2=D6, 3=D8, 4=D10, 5=D12
The number of dice rolled is equal to the skill rank (based mostly on experience), and the highest die is the one that matters. All checks are done with opposed rolls, Take Highest.
Check out Deadlands, which has a similar mechanic if memory serves.
Look at Sorcerer too, which has that "take highest" developed into high art, including degrees of success.
This isn't exactly a new idea, but most published games do not take it this far due to hard usability. You need lots of dice and willingness to delve into system. I wrote a similar one a couple of years ago, for example.
Why are the attributes rated differently from abilities?
Anyway, what my big question is, what type of play do you think this die mechanic will best represent or simulate? I'm looking for things like Gritty, Cinematic, Fast, Complex, Clunky, etc. Mabey even GNS references.
In my experience this is most satisfying for system junkies. You can include gamist hooks into this kind of multidimensional skill system easily, or use it as a simulationist thing. So I'd say it's a basis for exploration of system or a statement about simulationist theme. Consider: if you tie the die size and amount to different things, you are already on the way with the focus of your game. You have effectively chosen a theme for your game by making die size a result of genetics and amount a result of nurture. This isn't exactly a new theme in sim games, so why not tie the dice to something else? Give die size for stunts and amount for emotional relevance, for example.
The system is neutral colorwise. It's high handling time, but otherwise suitable for most things provided you set task difficulties and such suitably.
I know that coming up with a system first and setting and premise later isn't the best way to go about making a game, but I'm better with what I consider the analytical stuff (game mechanics) than the creative stuff (setting, premise, etc.)
Now, why not do the "creative stuff" in an analytic manner? I constantly produce my non-system things by analytical process. You'll just need enough experience with culture and literature to make informed decisions. Read more, and you'll start to see the structures and need not rely on "inspiration".
Anyway, go ahead and choose some goals. The mechanic itself can be used for almost anything, as long as the players don't mind complex dice calculations.
On 5/8/2004 at 12:53pm, Artanis wrote:
RE: die mechanic
Hello,
May I suggest Mechanical Dream, from Steam Logic? Granted, it's written in pretty poor english, but the mechanics are similar to those you describe (it was inspired by Deadlands and Shadowrun, if this can help).
The system lends itself to pretty simulationnist gaming, and is very deadly in combat.
Hope this helps, if you need more information, send me a private message!
On 5/8/2004 at 1:23pm, timfire wrote:
RE: Re: die mechanic
Welcome to the Forge!
frictorious wrote: While I would very much like to publish an RPG, that is not my goal here.
Here at the Forge, "publish" pretty much just means distributing your game publically. For example, just posting your game on your homepage is considered "publication." Now, if you still aren't planning to publish your game, you should post your questions on the Theory board, since intent to publish is a requirement for posting on this board.
Also as a quick note, if you're just looking for general tips, rather than specific concerns for your game, try the Theory board, you'll probably get more responses.
frictorious wrote: Characters have ... several Abilities rated 1-5 ... The rating determines which die is rolled:
1=D4, 2=D6, 3=D8, 4=D10, 5=D12
The number of dice rolled is equal to the skill rank (based mostly on experience), and the highest die is the one that matters. All checks are done with opposed rolls, Take Highest.
The die-thing is called a "step die" mechanic. It's often suggested that if you're going to use a step die mechanic that you also make it roll-under (or in your case, take lowest). The reason is that larger dice have a greater distribution. This means that with a higher-better approach more skilled characters are going to have wildly different results, while unskilled characters are going to have very consistent results. That seems backwards to some people, more skill should equal more consistent results, while unskilled should equal wildly varied results. Just something to consider.
frictorious wrote: what type of play do you think this die mechanic will best represent or simulate? I'm looking for things like Gritty, Cinematic, Fast, Complex, Clunky, etc. Mabey even GNS references.
This is a question you should ask on the Theory board. Try it, you'll get more responses.
frictorious wrote: I know that coming up with a system first and setting and premise later isn't the best way to go about making a game, but I'm better with what I consider the analytical stuff (game mechanics) than the creative stuff (setting, premise, etc.)
That's me, I love crunching the numbers! But you know, as much as I want to "get to the good stuff," it really works better if you develop a premise or concept first. If you don't have a concept in mind, you're likely to needlessly spend time developing mechanics that end up being unimportant in the game. (For example, a realistic damage system in a game that ends up being about political intrigue.) Also, I find that mechanical ideas actually flow better if I have some sort of concept or focus in mind first.
On 5/9/2004 at 1:32am, frictorious wrote:
Thanks
Thanks for all the wonderful feedback Forgerinos. I've taken timefire's advice (and re-read the stickies more carefully) and posted this in theory here:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?p=118444#118444
I'll go ahead and reply to those who've already responded to my post.
Eero: I'll try to check out those games you've mentioned. I'm including degrees of success, but except for combat rules I think that it will only be GM descretion/interpretation. The reason that I use different ranges for abilities than attributes, is mostly because of dice available. If I had D14, D16, and D18 it might turn out differently. I have a fancy chart for determining ability scores from attributes which is only used during character creation (so that play goes quickly). The chart allows me to do things like have the Aim ability be influenced more from Coordination than Perception. It may seem like excessive detail, but I'm trying be realistic. I'm using the amount/type of dice used for opposed checks to simulate things like stunts, emotion, motivation, environmental conditions, etc. Yes, I am a system junkie. I think that the handling time will be fast since players will have exactly the type and number of dice needed to roll for each of their skills on their character sheets. And glancing at the highest die should be quick.
Artanis: I'll try to look at the game you recomended. I want a simulationist game, which I think creates deadly combat.
timfire: Thanks for the posting Netiquette advice. You make points of using a Take Lowest that I hadn't thought of. I'll have to think on them carefully for how I want my system to work. It seems like skills would mean less for a Take Lowest. Adding extra dice to a take lowest D4 has less of an effect on range of the result (absolute range, not range relative to die size) than adding dice to a take highest/lowest D12 die pool.
I would like to come up with a good theme/setting/premise first, but unfortunately my brain keeps on crunching numbers and rolling dice in my head, instead of dreaming up original settings and exciting themes.
Thanks alot.
-Craig
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Topic 118444