Event ID: 3606
Game ID: SEM00045
Title: Does The Game System Really Matter?
Event Description: The Game System doesn't matter to have a successful gaming session. Join your hosts as they explore how to enrich your storyline no matter what game system is being used.
Event Type: SEM - Seminar
Event Duration (hours): 1
Event Start Date: 8/19/04 3:00PM

Hiya,

Whoa. First reaction: sharpen da knives, paint the face, skulk on up ...

Well, on reflection, it seems to me that showing up to someone else's planned seminar just to disrupt it would be discourteous. It's the same reason I don't go to Lou Zocchi's "industry" seminars; all I'd do would be a pain in the ass to the people who really did want to say their piece, and to those who came to hear them say it.

Maybe the mere existence of the Forge booth, and for this year, a good "inflammatory pamphlet," might be the best representation of the alternate view. I figure every copy of, say, Dust Devils or Kayfabe that gets sold is an eloquent rebuttal.

Best,
Ron

Ron,
Is there a reason you don't put on seminars based on your essays? Seems to me that there would be just as many people interested in going to a "System matters" seminar and it would be a good way to push a lot of Forge games.

,Matt

Hi Matt,

I've thought about it, but there are two reasons:

1. I've devoted a hell of a lot of time and effort to the mutualistic, outreach-based booth. That pretty much wears me out for purposes of any other activities.

2. Sales, sales, sales. I gotta make money at GenCon, and that means being at the booth and moving books. Seminars detract from that time. Conceivably, they could be opportunities for promotion, but not only is that a bit dubious in terms of ethics, it's a big "if" in terms of effectiveness.

Anyway, I don't want to give the wrong impression about the seminar you've pointed out. If anyone else wants to go, for whatever reason and with whatever anticipated approach to participating, I'm interested in discussing it. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Best,
Ron

If Ron is tuckered out from activites, I'm sure we have other Forgite sympathizers who could discuss our ideas well.But certainly, it would be really really (REALLY) bad if we tried building up some "elitist troll" legacy, and Ron is quite right that trying to disrupt their talk could be quite bad form. (And many "good gamers" believe S-does-M as an important spiritual truth. You gotta pry them off gentle-like.)

How about getting in touch with the organizers of this talk, to see how feel? Adding a few "When System Might Matter" points to the end of the talk may be alright.

EDIT: I was unclear, but those sympathizers are above could be the ones leading a "When System Might Matter" panel, and the seemingly counterintuitive premise would get some appeal. It could say "led by X, Y, Z, and Ron Edwards", but Ron could take a backseat to some of action, etc.

Depends on the presentation (as to the suggestion Ron participate in the already scheduled event):
A GOOD presentation will say "In this instance, system could matter because <insert reason>, but it is the feeling that such a situation could be changed by <insert reason to support "system does not matter">"
Debate 101- acknowledge the other side's arguements, concede some ground, give a good, well rounded rebuttle to everything else~

A BAD presentation will go "System doesn't matter! Nanny nanny boo boo *sticks out tounge*" - Extreame, but point obvious: if they're going to do it right, nothing Ron says will make a difference as they will have already covered and either conceded or refuted his beliefs~

Sides- if I did a presentation it would really annoy me if someone showed up just to dismiss everything I just did~ If one were given on "Why system DOES matter" and these guys crashed it, that wouldn't be cool either~

Consider the text on the seminar. The title is misleading is all. They're not saying that system doesn't matter, so much as that there are some things that one can do that can improve play for most systems.

I'm seeing them giving information on how to create interesting NPCs for instance. This isn't really controversial. I doubt they'll even actually discuss system so much as just cover a lot of widely useful techniques.

So I think "busting" it would be more than pointless, in all likelihood.

Mike

Hi guys,

Usually when someone says, "System doesn't matter", what they mean to say is, "The words in the text don't matter(compared to what we actually use at the table)"-Lumpley Principle in action. Regardless of the soundbites being used, if they actually promote useful techniques and encourage better social contract during play, let 'em go for it.

Going out to "bust them" would only fulfill the negative perceptions of egotism and elitism that have been floating about. Remember, we're a community, not religious missionaries :P

Chris

Just for the record, I wasn't saying we should go in an "bust them up" or anything rude. I was just curious to see if anyone was going. The title of the seminar is a question, "Does The Game System Really Matter?", well, that implies that they are opening the subject for discussion. Unless it was retorical - which it probably is.

,Matt

Given this:

The Game System doesn't matter to have a successful gaming session

daMoose_Neo wrote: Given this:

The Game System doesn't matter to have a successful gaming session

I'd say it was rhetorical~ Potentially stating the obvious but another 'debate' tactic - pose a question then answer it your way.

If people have already heard "cult/leet" stuff about the Forge anyway, than pamphlets might be odd. Dunno. Maybe if you're going to the panel, just strike up some post-coversations over lunch or whatever.

I'm always up for getting together with Forgites and "busting" something, like a casino or bank, or *maybe* HeroClix tourney, but panels are probably less apropos.

The taoist in me says, show, don't tell. If you really feel the need, have your own seminar. Otherwise join us at the tables where we make converts with each demo.

Mike