i looked around, but it doesnt seem to be that anyone has come up with some good solid rules for this.

So has anyone came up with any?

I thought about trying to make some, but kept getting side tracked with other stuff. I had idea's about manuevers, like burst fire horizontel, diagnel, verticle. stuff like that, or with a full auto gun, use something like the falling damage table for a spray of rounds.

just hopin' maybe that might spark some idea's or something. unless someone has already come up with something.

The old Cyperpunk D10 game had some good rules for firearms including semi-auto, full auto, bursts and supression. I can't remember what they were now but if you do some googling you can probably find some web page with them. Also there as a Bubblegum Crisis RPG that used the same rules set, so try looking for that. They might give some good ideas.

Some suggestions:

Semi auto: every firearm has a rate of fire between 1 and 3 shots a round. The player can divide their missile pool up between these shots, up to the max rate of fire for the weapon.

Bursts: Use same rules as above except each "shot" has 3-5 bullets in it.

Full auto: Treat as a single shot except the "shot" has 15-30 bullets in it and is distributed over an area.

Suppression: Basically turns the firearm into a trap for however many rounds its ammo supply lasts for.

Basic Stats for weapons:

Ammo: what kind of round the weapon uses. This would in turn effect the effective damage (same as Str+X for a missle weapon) and extra shock that each round does (shock is very important when considering firearm wounds). These should stay more or less uniform, a 9mm does pretty much the same thing to human flesh regardless of what kind of weapon it is fired from.

RoF: Rate of Fire, number of shots.round for the weapon in any applicable mode (single, burst, full auto)

Magazine: How many rounds the weapon can hold.

Accuracy: ATN for a shot. Also if you want to be realistic you can add recoil penalties or dispersment for followup shots within the same round.

Range: Effective range of the weapon.

Example: H&K MP5 (my personal favorite).

Dam: 9mm DAM 8, Shock 3.
RoF: 3 single, 3x burst, 15 full
Magazine: 30
Accuracy: 5 (we're talking about pure firearm perfection with this gun)
Range: 50 yards, +1 ATN for each 10 yards.

someone emailed me a set of rules a while back. Unfortunately we've not a had a chance to play with them yet as some of hte group were averse to shoe-horning the rules into the sci-fi game we wanted to run.. *grumble*

PM me your email and i'll send them your way if you like

I'm also Beta testing a set if you want 'em.

I just ask for feedback. Where do they fail, where do they need improvment, what do you like about them, ect...

im not much trained in automatic weapons, becouse i was in the artillery.

anyway i think we need to see on how/why the different modes where used. and relate that into the game.

Single shot: more precission/save ammo.
[best for first shot where the character har a full Missile pool, only mode where aiming should give some good bonuses].

Brust (3 shoots): shot range fire fights where using time to aim, is a death trap, so 3 bullets have more chance of getting the right way.
[best used by characters who don't have to time to fill there missile pool, and therefor only has a pool as his Wits, but works fine also with a full MP,
maybe the extra shots should give +2 dices in the missile pool when shooting, so that if you only got a wits of 5, then you actually have 7 dices to shoot with]


Full auto: To pin down enemy, and to fire at enemy who are crossing protectied terrain hoping that one shot would hit some thing.
[please help me on this one]

Anyway, i only have 2 months training and that 7 years ago, ie with a rifle. so if other more experinced guys, have another oppinion, then please correct me.

bergh wrote: im not much trained in automatic weapons, becouse i was in the artillery.

anyway i think we need to see on how/why the different modes where used. and relate that into the game.

Single shot: more precission/save ammo.
[best for first shot where the character har a full Missile pool, only mode where aiming should give some good bonuses].

Brust (3 shoots): shot range fire fights where using time to aim, is a death trap, so 3 bullets have more chance of getting the right way.
[best used by characters who don't have to time to fill there missile pool, and therefor only has a pool as his Wits, but works fine also with a full MP,
maybe the extra shots should give +2 dices in the missile pool when shooting, so that if you only got a wits of 5, then you actually have 7 dices to shoot with]

Full auto: To pin down enemy, and to fire at enemy who are crossing protectied terrain hoping that one shot would hit some thing.
[please help me on this one]

Anyway, i only have 2 months training and that 7 years ago, ie with a rifle. so if other more experinced guys, have another oppinion, then please correct me.

For anyone who didn't catch those acronyms (it took me a few tries, and I'm used to figuring out military acronyms):

CQB: Close Quarters Battle

FIBUA: Fighting in a Built-up Area

Rather awkward terms, if you ask me.. but I don't suppose anyone did.

puh Salamander, thats a good deal of information! now i begin to remeber what i was teached. hehe.

anyway now we know what the different kind of fire control is used for, now we need to make rules for modern firearms. and let is be a simple as possible.

First lets just use the "old" system from TRoS, when shooting, which seems fine by me, ie. the filling up to the maximum pool at a rate of the wits score. RoF is = turns not exhanges. so having RoF 2 means that you can fire a shot each exchange. im not thinking that RoF is = bullet expenture, just how many times you can "attack" each turn.

Single shoot = normal rules. RoF, 1 or 2, devide CP equal if 2 shoots.

Burst fire= +2 dices to pool/on top of "wits". when shooting within 50meter. is +2 dices to little?. RoF, 1 or 2, devide CP equal if 2 shoots.

Automatic fire= Yes i can't still figure this out. maybe something with +3 dices within 20 meters of something. but i dont think this really fills it out.

guys please write what you think.
i realy also wants functional rules for modern firearms.

BTW to Tash good idea of the Rate of Fire on weapons, this is also very importent.

My thinking for RoF was basically taking the exchange=1 second thing, and figuring "how many times could you fire (pull the trigger) this gun in 1 second?"

Popping off three shots with an MP5 in a second isn't hard, I've done it and I was never trained with any kind of weapon beyond my basic NRA safety course. Doing the same with my S&W .45 is physically impossible, the gun just doesn't cycle fast enough and recoils too much to get back under control. So it'd have an RoF of 2. A bolt action rifle would be RoF 1.

Now when dealing with burst and full auto its basically the same. In burst mode you pull the trigger and the gun fires, only it fires 3 shots instead of 1 (for all the burst equipped guns I've played with, I know there are some with different burst amounts). But actually lining up and aiming is pretty much the same. I can get 3 burst out of an MP5 in 1 second, though the rounds will be a bit scattered.

Full auto is essentially taking a single shot and holding the trigger down, the gun does the rest. Again, assuming that an exchange = 1 second I just did the math to come up with the RoF for the MP5. It takes about 2 seconds to empty a 30 round mag, so I figure a full auto rate of fire should be about 15 rnds/sec.

One alternate rule for full auto might be to use the RoF for the gun in place of the MP of the character. This would reflect a shoot from the hip, rock and roll style shot rather than the disciplined, aim, fire, assess approach taught to most professional soldiers.

Here are quick stats for my .45:

S&W .45 compact:

Ammo: .45 ACP (dam 7, shock 6)
RoF: 2 (single only)
Mag: 6+1 chamber
Accuracy 7 (the combination of big round and tiny frame make this tough to handle, my wife actually managed to put a round into the bench rest with it once).
Range 5 yards, +1 tn per 10 yards (its a compact model designed for CCW, 2" barrels don't make for)

My thinking for RoF was basically taking the exchange=1 second thing, and figuring "how many times could you fire (pull the trigger) this gun in 1 second?"

Popping off three shots with an MP5 in a second isn't hard, I've done it and I was never trained with any kind of weapon beyond my basic NRA safety course. Doing the same with my S&W .45 is physically impossible, the gun just doesn't cycle fast enough and recoils too much to get back under control. So it'd have an RoF of 2. A bolt action rifle would be RoF 1.

Now when dealing with burst and full auto its basically the same. In burst mode you pull the trigger and the gun fires, only it fires 3 shots instead of 1 (for all the burst equipped guns I've played with, I know there are some with different burst amounts). But actually lining up and aiming is pretty much the same. I can get 3 burst out of an MP5 in 1 second, though the rounds will be a bit scattered.

Full auto is essentially taking a single shot and holding the trigger down, the gun does the rest. Again, assuming that an exchange = 1 second I just did the math to come up with the RoF for the MP5. It takes about 2 seconds to empty a 30 round mag, so I figure a full auto rate of fire should be about 15 rnds/sec.

One alternate rule for full auto might be to use the RoF for the gun in place of the MP of the character, with damage allocated to random locations. This would reflect a shoot from the hip, rock and roll style shot rather than the disciplined, aim, fire, assess approach taught to most professional soldiers.

Here are quick stats for my .45:

S&W .45 compact:

Ammo: .45 ACP (dam 7, shock 6)
RoF: 2 (single only)
Mag: 6+1 chamber
Accuracy 7 (the combination of big round and tiny frame make this tough to handle, my wife actually managed to put a round into the bench rest with it once).
Range 5 yards, +1 tn per 10 yards (its a compact model designed for CCW, 2" barrels aren't great for placing rounds at a distance).

That's the closest I've heard to the system I've been using. Here're my .45 stats.

Average Pistol, such as .45 calibur M-1911
ATN 7, +1 per 10 meters
DR 6, +2 vs AV

In a nutshell, I've basically been handling rapid fire with simple recoil rules. Generally -1MP per each successive shot after the first. In the case of weapons with a very high RoF, -1MP can count for several rounds. If the burst was aimed and not at extreme range, all rounds hit in the same area, seperated only by the D6 roll.
I've got rules for most related things but that's basically it.

One problem I see with modern firearms is that skill is not very inmportant in a close firefight, because you never aim to get more than your Wit in MP dice. You might consider an alternative rule* for refreshing MP that uses (Wit + Proficiency) / 2 as refresh rate. That way, only an experienced gunman can make full use of high RoF.

[* Suggested a few weeks back by somebody on these boards. Credit where credit is due;)]

I think that method of handling MP refresh works better than using WIT/rnd.

Sorry about the double post also, I guess I got click happy.

I think in a close firefight, not letting your MP increase by more than one increment is a good representation of point shooting/reflexive fire. (CQB is my military specialty) It is kind of a bugger that the proficiency doesn't come into play at that moment though, but I don't know if it's that much of a difference to worry about, as with a little training point shooting is more intuitive than skill, which is represented well by Wit.
I've been treating hip shots and other improper point shooting techniques with a simple -1MP per 1 meter after the first. But, with such unaimed shots I don't bring a recoil penalty into play as it doesn't make a difference, and I roll hit locations randomly as opposed to aimed shots/bursts.

wits+Profency/2 = MP refill rate....good system, that system i will also use.

Should it be possible to fire a "burst" every exchange in Tros? ie.
2 "bursts" in a round?

and as descripped before its always better to fire Burst within 50 meters, and should the rules not reflect that?

should it then be such that a shot with a burst just means that a person had been hit with 3 bullets instead of one? and then add margin of success to each? which will say that if hit by a burst you can't survive, which i think is rather TOO lethal for a RPG.

I think the rules do reflect that. i.e. ATN 7, +1 per 10 meters, etc.
Each round that strikes should deal damage seperately, otherwise in tros it IS too lethal, and too abstract IMO.
I do it one of two ways, depending on how much time I want to take. One roll with all modifiers and penalties, with the margin of success governing how many rounds hit (though each hit is still rolled seperately on the damage table) or one roll with the appropriate mods and penalties for each seperate shot within the turn, still with all rounds striking seperately.

Well my exprience with burst weapons (MP5s and M-16/M4s) is that its pretty easy to aim, fire a burst, get back on target and fire another burst. Doing this quickly (i.e. multiple times a round) is kind of trick, which is why I said you should have to divide your missile pool. So if you have an MP of 12 and fire 2 burst you'd be limited to 6 dice each.

I would apply the full margin of success to the damage for each bullet in the burst. They won't all hit the same place but they'll be close (we should have rules for bullet scatter in place, but I can't think of a good way to handle). Sure this makes burst weapons incredibly lethal, but I don't think it is unrealistic. There is a reason these weapons are used so widely by military and elite police forces worldwide.

Too lethal.

Which is why (say it with me kids) we don't want to get hit.

TRoS takes lethality to new levels, it's true. It always has. Those levels are generally pretty realistic. But consider.. How many of the locations on the body actually result in instant death on a level 5 hit?

Cutting: 27 locations total
5 instant deaths
5 death is imminent or likely

Puncture: 21 locations total
3 death is nearly instantaneous

Bashing: 50 locations total
9 instant deaths
2 death is imminent
2 neck instantly broken

On other level 5 hits, there are some pretty nasty results, some of which are life threatening, but if you're playing with modern weapons, chances are you have modern medicine too, so unless someone takes the time to finish you off, you may just survive to live another day.

Don't lower the lethality level. Make it deadly, make it real. Make it so that anyone who plays TRoS modern has to be just as smart as if they play TRoS fantasy.

I personally don't believe Dice pool games model firearm combat very well. They are too abstract. I would recommend (if you can get it) an old game called Phoenix Command. This is one of my personal favourites but it is extremley detailed and dare I say it, More deadly than TROS. It uses 1/2 second impulses. But at that timescale you need to model stance aim time, vision. Because at 5yards no one misses. (don't forget the safety) (don't even think about a game that uses 10 second turns ugh)
Although most people won't like it because it is slow and cumbersome.

On the other hand TROS works because the dice pool mechanic very neatly models the choices of attack and defence and the effort put into the attack (divinding the pool) and the manouvers are brilliant (My hat off to you Jake)

Funnily enough I think the dice pool worls well enough for bows etc, I just think that firearm combat is so deadly that what wins you the fight is not the same thing as medieval missile combat.


Valthalion
aka Bayonet Pete

I know that dice pool systems arent good for modern firearms, but also if you want the dice pool system for hand to hand combat then i think you also have to have it for the shooting as well? or you maybe got a better idea?

it is importent for me, becouse im soon starting a Warhammer 40,000 RPG game, and then players both want a good detailed hand to hand system and shooting as well..

I have just re read my post and I realised that I must be the greatest simulationist ever. Harn and Phoenix Command wow.

Valthalion

I've never played pheonix command but I'll agree that dice pool mechanics abstract things more when dealing with firearms combat than more straight number based systems (like Cyberpunk, a personal favorite of mine).

But I don't think that's such a bad thing. In the real world firearms combat basically boil down to: people see each other, point guns, pull triggers, somebody gets hurt and maybe dies. According to an article I read once regarding firearms training for personal defence, the "average" gun fight in the US takes place in the dark at a range of 10 feet between two completely untrained persons. Its almost unheard of for trained gunfighters to square off against each other. Things like recoil, bullet scatter, stances, breath control, sight picture and what not don't add much to a game in my opinion.
To me its more important that the combat system capture the tension and fear such an encounter would cause than to know that the system was accurately modeling the effect trigger pull weight had on bullet dispersion at extended ranges. :)

I think TROS models proper shooting technique pretty well, in that someone with bad form has a MP of 3, someone who uses good technique has a lot of skill and has a much highe MP.
I don't think splitting the MP between bursts works well because it doesn't take recoil and the accuracy of each round into account.
Also, one lump damage sum for a burst is too lethal to be realistic IMO and will always result in automatic death unless your DR is too low to be lethal with one shot. The majority of gunshot victims do not die unless the round accurately strikes a lethal target or they don't get medical attention.
When you roll each shot individually, or at least each hit, even if several rounds hit the same D6 location, that doesn't mean they have to be one wound like with hand weapons, they can be cumulative.

With a game like TRoS, where damage is location based, each bullet pretty much has to be accounted for individually.

In the case of multiple rounds, there might be some need for a sort of "over-shock" rule. Perhaps if the total shock exceeds some number, then the victim up and dies, even if they have not bled out yet.

Typically, physical trauma does not kill people with gunshot wounds directly, unless it's one of those nasty one-shot locations like the heart or brain, possibly even lungs (though there are methods to save someone with a sucking chest wound, if you're up on your first aid). Generally they die of bloodloss (which is modeled by standard TRoS rules) or by shock, which really isn't.

How's this for a rule.. If the total shock of a single attack or series of attacks is equal to 2x the Willpower of the target, the target dies. SAs can be added to the 2x WP as applicable, representing a "will to live" beyond what is natural.

Or perhaps such a rule wouldn't be necessary or desired. TRoS is fair deadly enough on it's own.

i think an overshock rule wouldn't hurt if you are including firearms but in my opinion it needs to be allot higher than 2x WP

without having my book in front of me don't allot of the damage tables have shock values of above 2x an average WP?

The one thing about dice pools that does not work well IMO is the sucesses. Except for perhaps autofire and shotguns, how many sucesses you have should not effect damage. I could see it applicable for autofire and shotguns because the more you are on target, the more rounds/shot will hit. The only thing sucesses should apply to perhaps is where you hit, helping aim the round better.

MP would equal experience, courage under fire, dexterity, etc. I could see this giving more action available in an exchange, but not more damage done by the bullet. Transferring fire from one target to another is something that should be effected by this. A beginner would be lucky to site and fire, where the combat veteran may be able to site in and fire on 2-3 targets during this time frame.


For damage, I think a base damage plus a mod would be most accurate. Such as a d6, 1 is -2 to damage, 2 is a -1, 3-4 = base damage, 5 and 6 would add to damage. If this were the case, I think damage would be as follows:

6 -Small low velocity pistols, .22 of any type 6
7 -9mm pistols, many SMG's
8- 357 and 44 magnum, most rifles, LMG

The .45 acp would probably be about a 7-8, and most assualt rifles a 7 or an 8 as well.

Maximum toughness to firearms should probably be a 5, and this should be real rare. If you use the revised toughness = toughness/2 + 2, maybe firearm toughness could be this number divided by 2 +2.

I.E. - toughness of 8 - 8/2+2=6, for firearms this would be 6/2+2=5. So only the extreme toughness of 7 or 8 would apply to firearms.

Good thinking, but I don't see how your argument seperates from hand weapons either. I think it's unneccessarily complex. I think successes go well toward damage with bullets just like stabs. The more skill someone has, the more likely they are to achieve a more accurate and therefore more lethal hit.
And with firearms, just as with a rapier, accuracy is of the utmost importance to achieve the maximum results. Just as with hand weapons, the firearms DR should be balanced to factor in successes. Changing that would change the damage system for everything, including bows.

Overall I think Riddle's damage system does a great job of breaking down (no pun intended) the very complex issue that are at work when dealing with damage to a human body into a pretty simple form. I don't see why it should work differently for firearms. It all boils down to the same thing: using kinetic energy to destroy living tissues. Look at it this way: assume a 9mm round has a total damage of 6. Now assume a character fires that round at a target adn hits with a margin of 3, total damage 9. If the target has an average toughness of 4 and isn't wearing armor, that's a level 5 wound....a nasty wound to be sure, but not necisarily instantly fatal. Do the same math with a Str 4 character stabbing with a rapier at an unarmored foe....guess what, same results. Now I'm not going to venture that a rapier and a 9mm do the same damage in the real world, but I feel they are in the same ballpark under these conditions: a good margin of success = a good solid hit which causes a lot of hurt to an average person.

Tash wrote: Well my exprience with burst weapons (MP5s and M-16/M4s) is that its pretty easy to aim, fire a burst, get back on target and fire another burst. Doing this quickly (i.e. multiple times a round) is kind of trick, which is why I said you should have to divide your missile pool. So if you have an MP of 12 and fire 2 burst you'd be limited to 6 dice each.

I would apply the full margin of success to the damage for each bullet in the burst. They won't all hit the same place but they'll be close (we should have rules for bullet scatter in place, but I can't think of a good way to handle). Sure this makes burst weapons incredibly lethal, but I don't think it is unrealistic. There is a reason these weapons are used so widely by military and elite police forces worldwide.

Caz Wrote:

The more skill someone has, the more likely they are to achieve a more accurate and therefore more lethal hit.
And with firearms, just as with a rapier, accuracy is of the utmost importance to achieve the maximum results. Just as with hand weapons, the firearms DR should be balanced to factor in successes

I'm actually on Turin with this one. Now I admit, I have no military training and only VERY little skill with firearms (I shot a .22 a few times when I was 12 in boy-scouts), but from what I've studied on the subject, and just using some creative thinking, I think a part of how "margin of success" translates into hand-to-hand in TROS has in part of how you hold your weapon. The first success over you're oponent's defense indicates that you hit, your strength combined with the weapon damage mod indicates how HARD you hit, and the extra successes indicate things like the angle your blade connects with your oponent (whether its a draw-slash, a tip-cut, a right-angle blow that delivers a lot of force but doesn't "cut" much) or at the right angle to optimize force AND slicing ability - also, edge alignment would be a part of the margin of success, because if that is off, then it will impede your cut with a blade. With a firearm, the bullet pretty much does all the work.

Sorry, forgot the rest of what I had in mind with the previous post. I think that the extra margin of successes should be used with firearms to help determine exact location - kind of a modification on the "Accuracy" gift. Like, for every two extra successes beyond the first needed to hit the target will allow you to modify the d6 location hit by one in either direction. For example, 1-2 successes, a normal hit, determine damage and roll for location normally, 3-4 success allows you to modify the d6 location roll by one, 5-6 successes allows you to modify it by two, and so on. This could help represent a single sniper's shot made with a full dice pool being placed perfectly on the targeted area as opposed to rapid-fire shooting where the dice-pool is split up and you may only get 1-2 success.

Thats my thought as well, Kaelin, although you have put it into something that would probably work in game terms. I do hink a little randomness for damage would be needed as well, changing the bullets damage from -2 to +2 of base.

I also see a high MP as someone cool enough under fire to accurately place 2-3 rounds, when the low MP type would be lucky to hit with 1 round accurately.

For autofire or shotguns, I see the sucesses as dtermining how many rounds were actually on target (or ow much shot on target for shotguns.

There was a skirmish game that dealt with fire arm fire real well. Forgot the name, but it took hip shooting, aimed fire, aiming for more than 1 round, recoil, and of course target size, movment, etc into effect in both speed of fire and accuracy.

It allowed pistols one slight advantage I think they have in the real world:

Rifles/Carbines, etc were more accurate at range, better for aimed fire, carried a bit more punch, usually carried more rounds.

Bu the pistols were better to use for hip fire, for quick responses to a target you are/were not aiming at or had little time to aim. Not a very good trade off, but at least they were good at something!

Turin wrote: Thats my thought as well, Kaelin, although you have put it into something that would probably work in game terms. I do hink a little randomness for damage would be needed as well, changing the bullets damage from -2 to +2 of base.

I also see a high MP as someone cool enough under fire to accurately place 2-3 rounds, when the low MP type would be lucky to hit with 1 round accurately.

For autofire or shotguns, I see the sucesses as dtermining how many rounds were actually on target (or ow much shot on target for shotguns.

There was a skirmish game that dealt with fire arm fire real well. Forgot the name, but it took hip shooting, aimed fire, aiming for more than 1 round, recoil, and of course target size, movment, etc into effect in both speed of fire and accuracy.

It allowed pistols one slight advantage I think they have in the real world:

Rifles/Carbines, etc were more accurate at range, better for aimed fire, carried a bit more punch, usually carried more rounds.

Bu the pistols were better to use for hip fire, for quick responses to a target you are/were not aiming at or had little time to aim. Not a very good trade off, but at least they were good at something!

Looked at the site, game looks pretty cool.

That was not the game I was referring to however. I think it was called "Skirmish", and was a bit more simplistic though both have similar ideas/mechanics. Skirmish was designed for small unit actions, ancient times to present.

Ho there,
I've been puzzling over the firearms question myself (without personal firearms expertise) and here are a few thoughts I've come up with. Naturally, these are ideas for mechanics, not any kind of gospel :^)

First: Obviously, unlike missile fire weapons, you don't automatically take yourself out of firing position with each shot. In other words, it's not so sensible that your MP should drop to zero each time you pull the trigger. Maybe firearms should have a number associated with them, something like a "recoil" value. In other words, shots after the first could have activation costs in some sense.

Second: A burst might be handled as (say) three shots using a common pool, where the first shot uses all of the dice, the second uses dice-recoil and the third uses dice-2xrecoil. Assuming a recoil of 2, you would roll 2 dice, another 2 dice, and the remainder. Successes in the first set apply only to the first shot, those in the second set apply to the first and second shot, and those in the remainder apply to all three shots.

Third: Hit locations should be randomly distributed, with the option of spending a success die to select "center mass" or upper legs or two dice to select head, arms, shoulders or lower legs as target zones. This has to be called before the rolls, of course. If you spent two this way and got one success, it's a miss. These might need some adjusting-- two dice for the thighs, three dice for the extremities, maybe.

Fourth: One success in the margin indicates a graze, doing DAM/2, otherwise treat it normally.

Fifth: Cover should have two armor values, one which measures its toughness (as regular armor) and one which its obscuring power (which comes straight off the success margin). A bulletproof glass wall might have AV 10, OV 0, while hiding behind an overturned table might have AV 3, OV 3). OV would depend on size and opacity. Double the OV if you're completely hidden from view, and naturally, these apply only to body parts hidden behind cover.

Sixth: You need rules for peeking out from cover. Maybe initiative die rolls could cover this for snap shots (red die, you peek out, spend one exchange building up pool, one exchange shooting, and one exchange exposed w/ reflex roll at at... 9 to avoid the exposure?)

Seventh: Cyberpunk had a "Cool" attribute, which might be equivalent to WP. Getting shot at is unnerving, so one possibility is to make missed shots give "shock" of some amount, like 8-WP, or if it seems reasonable, have a WP/"cool" skill roll factor into it somewhere.

That's the basic framework I'm thinking about for guns. It's a bunch of additional rules, which may or may not all work together, but generally fits the overall RoS framework.

Dr Pete

Dr_Pete wrote:

Seventh: Cyberpunk had a "Cool" attribute, which might be equivalent to WP. Getting shot at is unnerving, so one possibility is to make missed shots give "shock" of some amount, like 8-WP, or if it seems reasonable, have a WP/"cool" skill roll factor into it somewhere

Fourth: One success in the margin indicates a graze, doing DAM/2, otherwise treat it normally.

Turin wrote:
My idea of the "cool" attribute is MP. This is a result of experience and SA's, and your "cooler" types are generaly more experienced. Although there are some newbies who are cool under fire, and some experienced types are no cooler under fire - they can sometimes get worse.

Although the idea of being shot at and how it affects your ability to return fire is often overlooked in RPGs. The purpose of supression fire is not as much to wound/kill as it is to keep their heads down. To represent this in a RPG is a very good but often overlooked idea.

I still think there is the need for further randomization for damage, not tied to the sucess level. If you follow the sucess = damage idea, then a better marksman (higher MP) would have a better chance at penetrating your armour plated glass listed below, which is illogical.

For autofire weapons though, I still think the best idea is to somehow tie the amount of rounds that hit to the sucesses obtained. Maybe also modify this by the ROF of the weapon. Obviously, cap the sucesses at the rounds fired in a burst, even if more sucesses are obtained.

with an actual LMG capable of more sustained autofire, you can "steer" your rounds to the target, seeing where misses go. Tracer rounds are a big help to this.

Turin Wrote:

For autofire weapons though, I still think the best idea is to somehow tie the amount of rounds that hit to the sucesses obtained. Maybe also modify this by the ROF of the weapon. Obviously, cap the sucesses at the rounds fired in a burst, even if more sucesses are obtained.

This is also less cumbersome than the method I was thinking of, though one hit/success does make this hella-deadly.