Topic: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Started by: Old_Scratch
Started on: 5/12/2004
Board: Adept Press
On 5/12/2004 at 5:42pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
[S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
I've been a lurker here off an on for some time now. Anyhow, I've been kicking about an idea ever since I bought Sorcerer & Sword, and I thought I'd throw out some of the ideas I have to get some feedback on it.
Where once magnificent buildings pierced the sky, there now lays rubble. The wisdom of centuries, once treasured in priceless and beautifully illustrated manuscripts are but ashes. In the great halls, where kings, senators, emperors, and men-who-thought-themselves-gods once ruled, there are naught but trampled bones. Where once choirs raised their voices to give praise to gods, there is only the howling of the winter wind.
The fires of civilization have all but flickered out in the Long Winter. Spurred on by their unending animosities and the undying ancestor spirits, the peoples of the north evoked the Eternal Winter: massive glaciers buried the magnificent cities of the south, seas of water and grain both froze, and what the cold did not destroy, the iron and fire of the Northmen did.
For centuries, for millennia, generations of Northerners rowed south to the lands, guided by their heroes and leaders in crusades against the weak and decadent southerners. Gold, and more important glory, was abundant upon such excursions of rapine and slaughter, but winter would always end and the Northmen always forced back… But now, the Northmen wander the bleak winter landscape, the shattered cities of their foes empty, and in their greatest glory, the Northmen have entered a twilight, a world where the needs and enmities of the dead rule the living.
The Cult of Heroes or the Cult of Ancestors, rules the Northmen. The Northmen do more than revere their dead, they live with them. Heroes do not lie dead, but return, wearing the flesh of their descendents to lead their progeny. Those who speak with, and share their bodies with the honored ancestors are the greatest of the living, and when they too pass on, they will become heroes, and return forth to honor their own descendents… or so it is said… in truth… it is said that the dead have insatiable appetites for the world of the living, that their needs and wants and desires eclipse those of the living, and that the costs of hosting one’s own ancestor-gods within one’s flesh are far too dear...
The Mythic Past, The Haunted Present
The Northmen, a diverse group from the frozen lands of the North have always called themselves the People. They believe that the human soul is immortal, and they have good reason to believe so. There is no heaven, there is no hell, there is only the People and their world. And when one of the People dies, his or her soul leaves their body, and freed of that flesh-prison remains in the world of the living, observing its descendents, acting as patron and sometimes judge of its own progeny.
This the Northmen know for certain. Their ancestors haunt the woods, the oceans, their homes and communities. When the winds howl, their voices can be heard. Sometimes the ancestors leave messages scrawled in the snow, or cause a dog to bark in the semblance of human speech. Most of these ancestor-spirits can be mollified by a few offerings throughout the year. They are but mere shadows of themselves.
However, those who burn brighter than others, with the greatest power and influence in life, the largest appetites, the most forceful personalities, and the respect of their peers are no so easily appeased. Even in death, their ambition knows no bounds. They are unwilling to surrender those things for which they fought so hard for in life. These Ghost Heroes are known as Shades, and even in death, they embody power… a power that many of the living crave.
These Shades are worshipped by the Northmen. The Skalds still sing songs of their battles, loves, and losses millennia after their deaths. Their name runes are embodied with power. Shrines exist marking their greatest victories. Their children bear their names. Their memory endures… as do they. And to reward this reverence, the Shades assist their descendents. Those of their blood can evoke the greatest of heroes their people have ever known. Not just heroes who have lived one life, but those who have seen countless centuries as they are evoked by unbroken lines of descendents throughout time. These chosen champions, known as the Wyrdlings, Shadewalkers, Reborn Heroes, and a dozen other names can invite these god-ancestors to do their bidding. Walls can tumble down. Mountains shake. The sun to run with blood. The moon to turn dark at their command. The mythic power of the gods is theirs to command. And the price? All these ancestor spirits and shades want is a little taste of what it was like to be human… and your soul.
On 5/12/2004 at 6:18pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Hmmm. I'll take a guess. Humanity is remaining normal, and not getting lost in epic quests and other grandiosity. That is, the shades prompt you to be more like them by giving of your soul to accomplish great tasks.
And Humanity zero means that you, too, become a shade? That would be neat.
Mike
On 5/12/2004 at 6:40pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Mike Holmes wrote: Hmmm. I'll take a guess. Humanity is remaining normal, and not getting lost in epic quests and other grandiosity. That is, the shades prompt you to be more like them by giving of your soul to accomplish great tasks.
And Humanity zero means that you, too, become a shade? That would be neat.
Mike
Humanity is fairly close, but really tied to the relationship between the needs of the host and the possessing spirit.
Humanity zero: No, it means you're personality is greatly subsumed by the possessing spirit. In your bid for power and fame, the spirit dominates you, subverts your identity, and lives his life in YOUR body. You never get to be a shade - since nobody remembers you, they only remember the Shade/hero that continued his legacy in your body. I mean, ultimately you want to become a shade - it is a form of immortality.
Although I do like your idea as well... I'll have to mull over it...
The Sorcerers: Shadewalkers
The Sorcerers in this game are known by many names, but here they will be titled Shadewalkers. They are the living descendents of great heroes; the blood of the most powerful and infamous people run through their veins. And their ancestors have a vested interest in seeing his own bloodline prosper, for it is only through his living descendents that one of these great heroes can again enjoy the pleasures denied to the dead. The Shadewalkers are those descendents who host their ancient and powerful ancestors in their body, in an ambivalent relationship which all too often ends in tragedy for the Shadewalker but greater glory for their ancestor.
Demons: Shades
Among the Northmen, the demons are simply those powerful, almost god-like ancestor-heroes known as Shades who have witnessed and participated in centuries of both heroic and infamous adventures, stories recounted to children over the fires. Stories sung of by millions of voices over the centuries. Stories that even the gods themselves would envy. The Shades are the greatest heroes of a heroic people. It is said that the Shades of the Northmen are like the stars in the sky: infinite.
Humanity
Humanity: those passions and desires that make one’s life worth living, those very things that the dead miss so sorely. What makes the heroes, both living and dead in this game so heroic, is the sheer enormity of their desires, be it for power, glory, wealth, or revenge. For the Northmen, humanity are those things you strive so hard for in life, but that you lose in death, and only in returning back in the guise of the living will you ever again be able to re-experience those things that made you so human.
The Price
The price is one thing: your humanity. This conflict is simple and focuses on two themes, two paradoxes: The needs of the living versus the needs of the dead, and becoming a hero versus being eclipsed by the hero.
What makes these Shades powerful is their desires and their passions. What makes these shades so dangerous is their desires and their passions. When one becomes a Shadewalker they enter a pact with something possibly far more ancient, cunning, and powerful than themselves. The Shades needs are great, their hunger unimaginable. Whether it be the taste of meat and mead or blood, the desire to feel the wind whipping through their hair or to slay the Shadewalker host-body of an ancient rival, the Shade is a demanding spirit, and its needs are likely to run counter to many of the needs and desires of its host, the Shadewalker. Essentially, the Shadewalker is surrendering those things that make life so pleasurable for them so that the dead can again re-experience these things; the Shadewalker is sacrificing for himself or herself that very thing that the Shade craves even in death.
The desire for every Shadewalker is to become a hero like that Shade that it embodies. Summoning and hosting one’s hero-ancestor is a shortcut to attaining that power and notoriety. Hosting and controlling a powerful ancestor immediately brings one remarkable power and glory. The ultimate goal is to become a hero so that one can return later after death to relive and re-experience that denied to the dead. Yet controlling these ancient-heroes is no easy task, and all too often the Shadewalkers themselves are crushed beneath the sheer force of power and personality wielded by the Shade. The Shade craves glory themselves and are often unwilling to give that glory to their own descendents. The Shade wants its memory to linger on, its own deeds to be recounted, not the deeds of its mere host. Thus the Shade’s interest is increasing its own legacy, not contributing to the legacy of others. Over time, all too often the personality of the Shade destroys and consumes the personality of the Shadewalker and the Shadewalker is but a vessel to the might and power of the shade. The Shadewalker’s own name is forgotten and the Shade possesses him, body and soul, and the Shadewalker dies anonymous and unmourned, while the victorious Shade can then walk in the flesh of its other progeny, awed by its growing power and renown.
Thus, in pursuit of power and fame, the Shadewalker puts their humanity at risk, surrendering their own needs to meet the needs of the dead, and struggling to ensure that the fame of their ancestor does not overshadow their own fame. Success means that upon death, they may return to rob the living of their needs and fame, while failure means a short life of slavery to the voracious needs of an avaricious ancestor.
A Humanity of Zero means that the Shadewalker’s own personality has been almost entirely subdued by the weight of the Shade’s personality. The Shadewalker’s identity and body is usurped by the Shade who continues living out its past life in the body of the Shadewalker, warring against ancient enemies and cavorting about madly in its new flesh body.
On 5/12/2004 at 7:14pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Ah, that's very nice. So it's a tightrope act. Try to be a hero, so you can become known, but don't rely so heavily on your shades to do so, or they'll end up absorbing you and you'll be forgotten. Metaphorically, you've ridden the coat-tails too much and people remember their contributions more than yours. From this it could be indeterminate whether the character actually is absorbed, or just never is important enough again to be a hero.
Neat stuff. What you have is an impetus to do heroic fantasy stuff, but all in the context of the overarching moral dilemma. Very nice.
Some technical stuff. Do shades "ride" the shadowwalkers? That is, are they parasites? Or can they exist outside of the shadowwalkers? Can they be Imanent per S&Sword?
What is Lore? What do rituals look like? Basic ecstatic ancestor worship?
Can you give some sample prices and descriptors?
Mike
On 5/12/2004 at 7:24pm, DannyK wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Cool. Are you considering it to be a post-apocalyptic setting, or a fantasy setting? Are the shades mostly, or exclusively, from the fallen golden age?
This whole setup reminds me quite a bit of the later Dune books, actually, in the way the royal family is (rightly) suspected of being possessed by the spirits of their ancestors.
Another question -- in this setting, is it socially acceptable to be a Shadewalker, or are they outcasts?
On 5/12/2004 at 7:49pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Mike Holmes wrote: Ah, that's very nice. So it's a tightrope act. Try to be a hero, so you can become known, but don't rely so heavily on your shades to do so, or they'll end up absorbing you and you'll be forgotten.
SNIP!
Neat stuff. What you have is an impetus to do heroic fantasy stuff, but all in the context of the overarching moral dilemma. Very nice.
Some technical stuff. Do shades "ride" the shadowwalkers? That is, are they parasites? Or can they exist outside of the shadowwalkers? Can they be Imanent per S&Sword?
What is Lore? What do rituals look like? Basic ecstatic ancestor worship?
Can you give some sample prices and descriptors?
Mike
Yes, you described it perfectly. It is a tight-rope act, particularly in not being overshadowed by your Ancestor who has been worshipped like a god for a couple of centuries and is an old hand at this "hero business". I also think that an important role-play element is that a) The spirit knows what's important: life (and the experience of it) yet b) the Shadewalker is constantly not living his life, since its being interrupted by the needs of a long dead and overly-demanding spirit. The Shadewalker probably won't know how important these things he's surrendering are until he is dead and suddenly realizes what he's been missing.
There's a component I haven't really mentioned either: The Demon/Ancestor/Shade needs his descendents, yet in possessing and using and sometimes throwing them away, the shade is compromising his own future, so there is a counterbalance to keep the Shade from acting entirely psychotic.
These three paradoxes: the needs of the shade vs the shadewalker, the heroes in competition, and the need for the shade to protect its progeny yet at the same time compromising its most powerful creates a few interesting moral issues to explore in play.
In most cases, Shades do "ride" their Shadewalkers? Yes, they are parasites or possessing demons. Which I think is up to the players and the GMs. There are also passing spirits, but I was going to get into that later. The Shadows which are lesser unknown spirits are more like ghostly little imps with little power and generally ignored (although people fear in the back of their minds of ending up like them).
One of my concerns is that people just think of the Northmen as generic vikings, so there's going to be some examples of different groups to fire the imagination, so there's a little bit of twisting and modifying of rituals and the like for each group - in particular burial rituals and the like. Some can be immanents, I'm still working on that, but there are other immanents in the world...
What's been described is primarily the male practice. Women have a different type of Sorcery (just a modification - I'm still working on the ideas). Then of course, there was the sorcery practiced to the south which deeply offended the Northmen which I haven't gotten around to describing. Basically I wanted to start with the Northmen and really give a good background on them, and then as players adventure about, the practices of the lost kingdoms to the south be revealed as forgotten, diaboloical (from the Northmen perspective), and mysterious.
I'll post the Lore and Descriptors in a different post. Thanks for the feedback, its gotten the wheels spinning.
On 5/12/2004 at 7:57pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
DannyK wrote: Cool. Are you considering it to be a post-apocalyptic setting, or a fantasy setting? Are the shades mostly, or exclusively, from the fallen golden age?
This whole setup reminds me quite a bit of the later Dune books, actually, in the way the royal family is (rightly) suspected of being possessed by the spirits of their ancestors.
Another question -- in this setting, is it socially acceptable to be a Shadewalker, or are they outcasts?
Well, it was going to be a Fantasy setting, but now that ou mention post-apocalyptic, that could work as well. In this case, the Long Winter could be a Nuclear Winter, and the Shades are all those that died in the nuclear holocaust. I think I'll add this as a possible twist - it was something I hadn't even considered initially.
The most powerful shades are from the "Golden Age", although most Northmen think that they are now living in a new "Golden Age", even though its a bitter victory - they've conquered most of their foes and they've got little to show for it.
In most of the Northmen societies (which I'll hope to differentiate a bit between) Shadewalkers are generally socially acceptable, if somewhat terrifying - a mixed blessing. Its greatly contingent upon what Ancestor is bound. An ancestor who last time he was bound butchered half the community is probably seen as very foreboding, whereas one who defended the community from an onslaught of ancient spirits in the past and earned the community a century's reprieve is probably honored... but... in the back of their minds, the community will worry that the return of this ancestor might cause yet another cycle of events, where the defeated Shades return to wreak vengeance. Part of the feel of this world is that there are two worlds: the past and the present and both have merged as the Shades never forget and continue their centuries' old feuds.
It seems like in many S&S and Sorcery games, the characters are loners, but I wanted them to be tied into a community and relationships - one that stretches back before time, although there's also plenty of opportunity to run around and rampage through ice-encrusted cities still packed with wealth and strange treasures.
On 5/12/2004 at 8:11pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
The Shadewalkers
Shadewalkers are those few chosen by their ancestors to serve as mediums and companions. While highly respected by the living, almost revered as much as the ancestors, they are also greatly feared. Many of the great tragedies recalled by the Skalds, Chanters, and others are stories of Shadewalkers who befell a terrible fate. The Shadewalkers are the heroes of today, the leaders of the Northmen, those who invoked the Long Winter, the new Age of Heroes, and who have led their people south into victory and dominance over the lands and seas.
Stamina
The Northmen are great and terrible in appearance. Towering over the lesser people to the south, they claim that their ancestors were once giants and all the world was theirs’. A hale and hearty people, their stamina is not just in their bodies, but in their vitality and a zest for life, their unquenchable thirst for experience. The ancient heroes all had remarkable strength of body and mind, and the present heroes are no different. It is said that the Shades themselves only take on Shadewalkers worthy of them.
Blood of Shame: It is all too apparent that somewhere within you have blood of the Southrons in you. You are held in contempt by your fellows. You are soft and weak and near worthless. It would have been best if you were not born at all, thus unable to pollute the blood of the People.
Giant’s Blood: A giant among giants, the ancient blood runs thick and strong through your veins. Your powerful frame and towering height humbles even the mightiest of your people.
Hero Reborn: You are the spitting image of one of the ancient and revered ancestors. It is said that some Shades do not need Shadewalkers, that they are instead reborn again with their own bodies. The old women have whispered that you are fated towards great and bloody deeds.
Justice-Maimed: You brought shame and dishonor upon your family, your people, and your ancestor. And now, you’ve paid for your crime. You survived your trial by endurance, but just barely, and the ordeal has left you a torn man inside.
Man of the Flesh: You know what is good in life: food, wine, song, and the company of lovers! Let others wave axes about in the snow or wander haplessly about in the forest! They shall miss the finer things in life. You may not be the most imposing or threatening, and perhaps you’ll gain a bit of weight from your diversions, but for now you are a bold, handsome, and passionate person with an appreciation for the finer physical things in life.
Saga-Maimed: It was in the execution of an ancient rivalry between the Peoples when you suffered a severe blow that left you crippled. You are no mere weakling, your friends and family respect you, and your foe suffered greatly, but the injury has cost you greatly.
Sea Wolf: For centuries the great longships of the Northmen have raided the south, and many of the greatest heroes were not those massive men, but those lean, tough, and utterly ruthless men who sailed the treacherous seas to bring fire and steel to the weak. While you may be less broad and muscular than many others, there is a hardened toughness about you that is evidence of your strength.
Winterborn: Born on one of the coldest nights, emerging from the womb blue and white from the cold, it is said that you are less than human, your father was the Winter itself. When you enter a room, it seems to get colder around you, fires dim, and people look in fear and awe at you. Thin and lean, you are hungry like winter and death.
Will:
The Northmen are not only known for their imposing physical presence, but their fierce and indomitable wills demanded by the harsh and uncaring environment in which they live. Hardened by their climate, there is nevertheless a fierce desire to live, one that transcends even death itself.
Broken Spirit: Perhaps it is a secret that only you know, or worse, everyone knows what it was that broke you. You were a fine, strong person once, gaining the respect and power of your peers, but now you are a shell. Whatever drives the human spirit on has surrendered within you. People either pity you, or are disgusted by you.
Call of the Wilds: Your friends and families claim you have been claimed by the wilds, that deep within you is the fierce, wild, and single minded will of an animal about you. You are strong, untamed, and utterly fierce.
Heart of Ice: Some whisper that it is not blood that runs through your veins, but ice water. Others fear that one night you froze to death, your heart turned to ice, but everyone fears to tell you that you are in fact dead. Whatever the speculation, you are exceedingly cool and passionless, and some would say cruel and inhuman. Nothing, good or ill, seems to faze you.
Living Shade: Your charisma and remarkable personality have won you the respect and loyalty of others and brought you great renown. It is said by the elderly that have seen other heroes become Shades, that you are equally of their caliber, a living Shade and they are honored to have seen such a rare event.
Proud Line: You hail from a proud line of warriors, reavers, and Shadewalkers. While some clans and families might have more prestigious ancestors, your own family is notable for its strong and dominant personalities that have led the family through countless trials and victories over the centuries.
Summer’s Child: Has the Winter not touched your soul? You are soft and weak, like a summer flower, unlike the great trees that brace against the winter. You are treated with contempt by all around you.
Thirst for Life: Despite the adversities in your life, you have succeeded where most have failed. You have a rare vitality that drives you ever on, overcoming whatever lies in your path.
Touch of the First Hero: People are in awe of you, your mere presence inspires acts of greatness, and even other Shades revere you. It is said by the wise women that at birth only a few are touched by the First Hero at birth, and they are destined to lives of glory and praise, remembered until the end of time.
Lore:
Lore is your knowledge of yourself: who you are and where you hail from. A northman is nothing without a history and honored ancestors to inspire him to great acts of daring. Lore can be a host of details: the ancient art of beer brewing, knowledge of the hero-sagas, a mastery of geography and places sacred to the ancestors, songs popular in the past, the genealogies and lists of names necessary.
Ancient Secrets: Your families power and influence and control of the dead is unparalleled by most, and feared by all. Few know how it is possible, but the secret has been given to you. An ancient pact or relationship with the ancestors is likely, something terrible. Perhaps everyone in the family is born a twin, and one of them is sacrificed at birth to the dead? Or is it something darker?
Blood Memory: You needed no words. You were born with the knowledge in your very veins. The dead have always been there with you, and you instinctively sense their presence and know their names. You are the living, but also one of the dead.
Brotherhood: Not all the Shades are tied by birth-blood to their Shadewalkers. Some of the greatest Heroes were tied together by blood bonds of choice, warrior brotherhoods where ritual exchanges of blood created ties beyond death. You are the member of such a warrior-society and the brotherhood’s secrets are yours, and the heroes of the past yours to command.
Family of Heroes: Your family has an honorable past, one recounted regularly amongst your family. You can recite for days on end the deeds of your ancestors, their travails and accomplishments. Their history is your history, and you are one with the dead.
Lost Family: Defeat or victory at war, an ecological disaster, or something of the sort may have caused your clan, family, or people to move, losing touch with your family lands. The distance between you and your ancestors has rendered much of your knowledge and power useless, as your ghost-ancestors have become disassociated with your family.
Occult Experience: There are a great many places of power where ancient spirits linger, places where the forgotten dead await the living. You came upon such a place, by fate or choice, and it is here that you bartered with the dead for their secrets. Who knows what price they ask of you, its best if you don’t speak of it to anyone…
Skald: You are one of the Skalds, chanters, blood-singers, sages, or story-tellers who keep the oral tradition alive. Among the most prestigious of the People, Skalds wield great power and influence, as they control the knowledge. They spend decades learning the sagas of great heroes, poems that take weeks to recite, and songs so old that none know what they actually say.
Weak Blooded: A shameful history, a young family, or the silvered souls of ancestors are all factors that may weaken a family or clan. There isn’t much lore to draw upon since your family has little (or a disgraceful) history or your ancestors are inaccessible or forgotten.
Cover:
There is no “Cover”, instead it is replaced by two things, Your People and Your Lot in Life.
First is your People, whose unique history provides some background. Are they Mammoth-riding hunters? Northmen squatting amidst the ruins of ancient cities? Sea-borne reavers? Guardians of an ancient battleground high in the mountains where clans gather to settle disputes?
The second is your Lot in Life: what role you fill within your society. Among your people, who you are and what you do? Are you a wise man? An axe maiden? A hunter? A charioteer? A drunkard? A warlord? A feral beastman living on the outskirts of a village?
Price
Represents something the character has had to sacrifice as a consequence of becoming a Shadewalker or something about them that has changed or transformed as a result of the close tie with the Shade.
Absolute Power: The power of the Shade has given the character an unrivalled arrogance and bloated sense of power. While everyone fears the Shadewalker, nobody respects the Shadewalker.
Ancient Enemy: Shades do not forget, and they harbor their rivalries forever. Furthermore, they’ve had centuries to make new enemies. The Shadewalker, possessed by a notable Shade has earned the undying hatred of a rival people.
Awed: The Shadewalker is deeply awed by the experience and tends to believe everything the Shade says, as well as going out of his way to please the Shade.
Exile (Voluntary or Involuntary): The character summoned a Shade that required exile. It could be voluntary, that the Shade demanded the character journey far to accomplish some ancient task. It could be involuntary: the needs of the Shade have outraged the community or the Shadewalker has bound a particularly vicious and cruel Shade that their clan, family, or community abhor.
Last of the Line: The character is either the last survivor of their line, or murdered their siblings to keep the others from becoming Shadewalkers.
Kickers
To fit the theme of this game and the feel of the epic, “Kickers” are renamed “Saga Verses”, representing a portion of the saga sung by Skalds detailing the life and adventures of this particular Shadewalker.
On 5/12/2004 at 8:53pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Minisupplement! Minisupplement!
That's all just too cool not to be published.
Mike
On 5/14/2004 at 1:50am, Nev the Deranged wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Mike Holmes wrote: Minisupplement! Minisupplement!
That's all just too cool not to be published.
Straight up!
On 5/18/2004 at 6:33pm, tetsujin28 wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Word.
On 5/20/2004 at 2:52pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Some Further Elaborations
I want this game to work on two levels: the first as a Sword & Sorcery pulp game, like Howard’s Frost Giant’s Daughter, with ancient enmities, the mystical seasons, blood steaming in the snow, and big axes and swords for that dynamic and exciting feel, yet I also want it to work on a deeper and more profound level, one where mature themes are explored through game play.
The Thematic Introduction
The introduction in the first post (italicized) is what I wrote for myself, to try to capture a sense of loss, a sort of “The Fall of Rome” feel, with civilization and all of its wonders cast down. That conveys the deeper themes of the game, which is essentially about loss and glory.
The Player’s Introduction (Not done yet…)
There is a blurb I’m going to write for the players, from the Northmen perspective which is going to have an entirely different perspective and get them excited about it. Rather than about loss, its going to be about blood, glory, and honor. Ancient sagas of their forefathers, they’re deity ancestors joining them in righteous battle, the hunting of ancient monsters in haunted forests, angry spirits whispering mad thoughts, secret names and mysteries passed on within lodges, warrior brotherhoods sharing blood, scars, and tattoos, animal familiars and companions, and longships being beached as reavers come ashore with steel and fire. Stuff that stirs the blood… gets the players excited about it.
Once they’re in the right mindset, have their ancestor-demons, the Shades with them, then we can explore the consequences of these relationships a bit more deeper. But before I go into that, I want to mention some of my design choices that I’ve made so far…
Ultimately, I would like for there to be a jarring disconnect between what is mythical and imagined and purported, and how the relationship with the ancestors actually plays out.
The Descriptors
I really wanted intriguing descriptors – everything the players look at early on should be loaded with atmosphere for the game – I don’t want any single moment lost with just a generic description. This is a perfect opportunity to convey some of the atmosphere of the world, and in particular its myths, symbols, and metaphors. Competence (and excellence) is stressed in S&S, so it would seem weird to make a character who is “weak” or the like, so I assume that characters are heroic and any weakness they have is related to their past or history, potentially providing back story.
Secondly, I want people looking over the list to not only get an idea for the cultures they hail from, but also to be excited about a number of the descriptors, I want the choice to be a painful one… after all, they are essentially making the first of many choices and I want the importance and the sense of sacrifice to be suggested early on. There is a sort of hierarchy with the scores, but I think that a number of them could be quite appealing.
Your People and Your Lot in Life (Replacing Cover)
Your People is the first element replacing "Cover". I think that Sorcerer, even with relationship maps, tends to build a tightly bounded community (which is fine), but I wanted this game to at least hint at a much broader sense of community, even if it wasn’t fully represented in play. Thus Your People serves as an adjective to Your Lot in Life, the latter which is effectively your role and place in your community.
Just as some games, like Gamma World, have you create your own community, in this game, I’d like players to be able to develop their own community while creating their character, and Your People and Lot in Life goes a long way towards developing this. One character might be Black Olaffson, Winter’s Reaver (his Lot in Life) of Clan Mortenholm of the Chalk Cliffs (his People), a sea-bound community of raiders feared by Northmen and Southrons alike, another is Katyaaq Katyaaq Siksrikpak, a Sledfolk (People) Scout (Lot in Life), one of the Northern people far to the north who migrate, following the herds in their dog sleds, and it is said that their dogs are as dear to them as their children, while Thegn Olsdvaald, son of Otkell, Shadewalker of Sternving the Hammer of the Ancients and Slayer of the King Osmer, and now Hammerlord of the Southlands and Great Chief (his Lot in Life) of the Hreidhar Nation (his People) lives with his people in the ruins of the conquered and razed Southron city notable for its 1,000 bell towers, most of them tumbled down or buried in snow drifts, they’re bells stilled for eternity.
The Price
In my description of the Price, I haven’t listed the penalties, because in the player selection process I want the price to be more than just a minus one die penalty in certain situations, I want it to be considered primarily as another contribution to the character, not a mandatory penalty. I don’t know if it makes a difference not listing the exact penalty, but to be honest, Last of the Line price seems more interesting than merely stating them that it gives a –1 penalty to some actions, although I would still end up using the penalty, and it would seem to get used a lot as the situation merits.
Saga Verses (was Kickers)
The immediate inspiration is of course inspired by the that famous “Know Ye Oh Princes” blurb or however it goes from Conan, as well as the concept from the original Conan, in which the game you were playing was merely the retelling by a storyteller at a warm fire. It is also inspired by epics and sagas as well.
Rather than just write out the Kicker, the player formats the Kicker as the beginning of a poem, an epic saga, or as a tale recounted by a story teller. If you want it a rhyming poem or something of the sort, even better! The intent here is to get the players into the mindset of telling a story worthy of recounting in an epic manner. I suppose its really just a gimmick, but if it works, or conveys a sense of atmosphere…
On 5/20/2004 at 2:56pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Hiya,
My experience suggests that Price is best started as a -1, then let the players tune it as they see fit by introducing goals/oaths. It works tremendously well for the Sword approach. There's really no need to tweak it otherwise - the effect you're hoping for is right there in play, and it develops better in play than it does as a "gee I'm gonna have it be this way" part of character creation.
Best,
Ron
On 5/20/2004 at 9:39pm, Nev the Deranged wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Hm... the more I read the cooler it sounds.
Some of my CoC playing friends just tried the Viking age Cthulhu (don't know if it's out yet, one of them is a playtester for Chaosium so it might have been an advance copy or even a beta... but then it might not) and they basically said it sucked and was lame.
It'd be cool if you make a minisup out of this to point them toward it and see what they think... 'specially if I can convert one or two of 'em to Sorcerer first.
On 5/20/2004 at 9:59pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Nev the Deranged wrote: Hm... the more I read the cooler it sounds.
Some of my CoC playing friends just tried the Viking age Cthulhu (don't know if it's out yet, one of them is a playtester for Chaosium so it might have been an advance copy or even a beta... but then it might not) and they basically said it sucked and was lame.
It'd be cool if you make a minisup out of this to point them toward it and see what they think... 'specially if I can convert one or two of 'em to Sorcerer first.
Thanks, but I don't really know much about the mini-supplement program, and I'm not sure if my work is up to par. There's a lot of ideas, but most of them need a lot of adjustment and playtesting... and at just this minute I happen to be a few thousand miles away from my group, so I'm just putting this stuff together when I see them.
Its funny you mention CoC Dark Ages. I had gotten together with my group for one week when I last saw them, and we rolled up Conan characters. It sucked. I told them they were Vanir. Big hairy viking men. I was really excited about the Conan game, but after having read Sorcerer & Sword, I suddenly realized that that 50 dollar game was not what I wanted, and S & S which I bought for four quid at Spitalfields market was a much better deal!
So I started converting these ideas over into S & S, but I'm curious to see how they play out. There's a lot of material I really haven't touched on yet, and I think it might be become I'm less certain of the material - like for example the variations I'm thinking of for women.
One thing I'm really excited about are the idea of clans and peoples. I want players to not only create characters, but to fabricate a clan or society around their character, to really introduce the human element, one that exists in the present and extends into the past, really rooting the character in the humanity element of the game. However, two things make me reluctant to start off on this: The first is Ron's statement on the first page of the book on what is not S&S. "An a priori carefully detailed, mapped, and ethnographically structured made-up world". Now I have no map. History is hazy and subjective and can be made up by players at will "Why, my ancestor Ulnar Stonejaw, Warhird leader of the Red Wolves fought and died at this very spot! I shall contact his spirit!". The part that hangs me up is the "ethnographic" bit. I want a richly detailed group. Not a sketch. Now I don't want to sketch out every aspect of the culture in detail, but creating in conjunction with the players a rich description of their culture does a lot to making the game more interesting - but this may just be my own interest.
Second, since I want characters to create their own cultures, and I've got a lot of ideas, I'm afraid that if I present my ideas to them, they'll take that as the law or as suggestions and it might actually limit their ideas. So I'm thinking about writing up some various culture groups as NPCs or for players who are really, really, really stuck or just drop in. But I think by presenting the information too early, I'll be imposing my own concepts on players and muddying up the focus which should be the characters' own ideas on what their groups are like.
Lastly, where I'm going with female sorcery (since the sorcery above is heavily slanted towards men) is in my opinion a lot weaker, but I do plan on posting in the next couple of days female magic.
Normally, I'm not crazy on giving women their own type of magic, but in retrospect, in pulp literature, women are often given access to strange and alluring powers, and it seems like it might be in the theme of the source material to play along with it. I'm not looking at women as sex-pots or succubi, but as seperate but equally powerful, drawing their magic from a different source in a rational and culturally appropriate manner.
I'll get around to writing it up and throwing ideas out in the next day or two.
Thanks for the kind words, but if you have an criticism, points of clarification, or any suggestions, do speak up. This isn't an ego trip, I'm curious to see how my ideas can be developed and fleshed out to something more polished than what I have now!
Thanks for taking the time listening to my ramblings!
On 5/20/2004 at 11:45pm, DannyK wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
I'm wondering about the range of cultures included. I guess I can think of a fair range of primitive cultures in cold places -- Eskimos, Norsemen, northern Plains Indians... but I wonder if it might work better to settle on a single basic culture system (the Norse stuff seems very cool to me). That way you could lay out the basics, while allowing for considerable variation and customization by players. By reducing the overall range of cultures, you allow the setting material to be much deeper, and the descriptors to be less generic and more evocative. And there's still plenty of variation possible, with conflict between the ruined-city-dwellers and the nomads and the shipborne raiders.
This occurred to me while reading about the sample players you mentioned: Katyaaq Katyaaq Siksrikpak seems to be the odd man out. And while we certainly need a good Vikings-vs-Eskimos RPG... this is maybe not the place.
About the Saga: perhaps the player's goal is to get a saga of their own, or at least their own stanza, but at first they might start out just being strongly identified with a particular bit of a Saga.
For example, Thegn Olsdvaald, the guy who lives in the cool tumbledown city of bells, might start out being strongly identified with Hrugnar, the famous monster-slayer who cleansed the city of demons during the legendary foudning of Hreidhar. When he gets to be big, the skalds start adding verses alluding to his deeds; someday, when he's become a titanic figure in Hreidhar history, Thegn's saga gets popular.
Ooh! Nice twist on this! This sets up a nice automatic competition for glory between the heroes and the Shades; if Thegn's Saga becomes a standard, maybe it displaces the story of how some ancient hero killed an entire clan in one day to reclaim his honor. Much glory to Thegn, but one very pissed off Shade.
Man, it's really a clever, deep idea you have here. I like how it taps into all kinds of anthropology and mythology.
On 5/21/2004 at 6:48am, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
DannyK wrote: I'm wondering about the range of cultures included. I guess I can think of a fair range of primitive cultures in cold places -- Eskimos, Norsemen, northern Plains Indians... but I wonder if it might work better to settle on a single basic culture system (the Norse stuff seems very cool to me). That way you could lay out the basics, while allowing for considerable variation and customization by players. By reducing the overall range of cultures, you allow the setting material to be much deeper, and the descriptors to be less generic and more evocative. And there's still plenty of variation possible, with conflict between the ruined-city-dwellers and the nomads and the shipborne raiders.
Yes, I think this is a reasonable suggestion. However, what I'm trying to avoid is a repeat of the Kirk Douglas film "The Vikings" unless that's what players really want. In appearance and some surface details, there's going to be some continuity and similarities between each. The way men and women relate. Each people is going to of course claim that the First Hero was their ancestor and only they can summon him, and of course each group pays close attention to burial rites.
But at the same time, I don't want this to be a Norse-rip off game, with these just being Vikings with the serial number filed off. They look like Norse, but they've been transformed by their particular context. So what I'm trying to do is hitch a ride the imagery of the Norse while making them distinct so that after the initial design, people feel like they are playing a fantastic and unique set of people, not Wikings or Vykyngs or some sort of cheap viking knock-off.
DannyK wrote:
This occurred to me while reading about the sample players you mentioned: Katyaaq Katyaaq Siksrikpak seems to be the odd man out. And while we certainly need a good Vikings-vs-Eskimos RPG... this is maybe not the place.
Of course. Fair enough. But imagine Scandinavia: Katyaaq Katyaaq may not be an Eskimo. He could be a Lapp from Finland. In the far North where horses won't live and great herds of mastadons roam, you have the Sled-People. Tall Northmen, with rune carved spears, sleds that are the shrines to their ancestors, and a strange connection to their dogs. It is said that the Sled People's dogs have souls as well, and that when a Shade visits its progeny, the dogs recognize the Old Soul, and sometimes, an old, grizzled sled dog, you know, the one with one-knowing eye and tattered ears, is able to journey into the Winterlands, barking and bringing back lost ancestors.
What I've done is taken one feature: a reliance upon sleds and dogs, imported it into a Norse culture, and twisted and warped it so that it fits, and doesn't feel like Vikings against Eskimos. With any luck, none of the cultures I'll describe will look *exactly* like anything historically. We'll see...
DannyK wrote:
About the Saga: perhaps the player's goal is to get a saga of their own, or at least their own stanza, but at first they might start out just being strongly identified with a particular bit of a Saga.
For example, Thegn Olsdvaald, the guy who lives in the cool tumbledown city of bells, might start out being strongly identified with Hrugnar, the famous monster-slayer who cleansed the city of demons during the legendary foudning of Hreidhar. When he gets to be big, the skalds start adding verses alluding to his deeds; someday, when he's become a titanic figure in Hreidhar history, Thegn's saga gets popular.
Ooh! Nice twist on this! This sets up a nice automatic competition for glory between the heroes and the Shades; if Thegn's Saga becomes a standard, maybe it displaces the story of how some ancient hero killed an entire clan in one day to reclaim his honor. Much glory to Thegn, but one very pissed off Shade.
Man, it's really a clever, deep idea you have here. I like how it taps into all kinds of anthropology and mythology.
That's exactly the direction I'm going for! You put it beautifully, and I sort of glossed over the implications. Both Shade and Shadewalkercrave the same thing: Glory and immortality. To be fawned over by their followers. Both need each other. The Shade needs a body to inhabit to relive life and to be present to be remembered. The Shadewalker, in a world where the ancestors are revered and are present, need to ascend to the same level, competing with the glory of the ancestors by invoking them and engaging them on their level.
Yet there's another facet, another paradox which I haven't gotten to:
The Shade craves becoming human.
The human, craves becoming a Shade.
This relationship is based on envy.
And then if you take into account that the Shade has the need for glory, a trait that the Shadewalker is after, you've got dramatic tension right from the start. And what happens if a character has multiple ancestors for whom they are Shadewalking? The dynamics can be potentially explosive! A Greek tragedy with gods warring over their descendent's soul!
Thanks for the feedback, its given me a few ideas and also challenged me to be a bit more rigorous in my distinctions and descriptions!
And I wanted the game to have a very strong ethnographic component, so the last comment really pleased me.
On 5/21/2004 at 4:12pm, DannyK wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
You know what would be really cool ? If there was some rules for becoming a culture hero. Maybe that's getting too far into Heroquest territory, but it would rock.
On 5/21/2004 at 6:27pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Ron Edwards wrote: Hiya,
My experience suggests that Price is best started as a -1, then let the players tune it as they see fit by introducing goals/oaths. It works tremendously well for the Sword approach. There's really no need to tweak it otherwise - the effect you're hoping for is right there in play, and it develops better in play than it does as a "gee I'm gonna have it be this way" part of character creation.
Best,
Ron
Thanks Ron! I just wasn't clear in my original statement. When I stated that I wanted them to be more than just a -1 penalty, I didn't mean a higher penalty than that, I just didn't want the Price itself to be perceived as simply a penalty. So then rather describe in each price when the penalty would be applied, I merely left the description of the Price. I want characters to choose a Price because it feels right, not because they're worried about a -1 penalty in situation X. Once the character has chosen it, the GM and the player can hash out the details of when the -1 penalty will come into play. I'm planning on running this with people who aren't familiar with the game, and I want them to focus on the atmosphere, I certainly don't want to trigger a min/max response from them that I know two of them are prone to. I'd like to mitigate that while letting them get the feel of this particular game and its setting.
On 5/21/2004 at 6:51pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
DannyK wrote: You know what would be really cool ? If there was some rules for becoming a culture hero. Maybe that's getting too far into Heroquest territory, but it would rock.
Well, I believe I hinted at the First Hero in my first posting in one of the descriptors, but its really just a reference and I really haven't elaborated upon him yet, but he could be a sort of Culture Hero. He's really the first ancestor, the first man, with all sorts of contributions attributed to him.
The thing is, every group claims him as theirs. And to claim that you are the Shadewalker of the First Hero would be a very political thing - you'd earn the envy and hatred of others, especially those Shadewalkers already claiming to be hosting him already! Lastly, any Shade could claim to be the First Hero or any other culture hero for that matter. So if you want, as a player, to assert that your character is a Shadewalker of a Culture Hero, that's cool... I might even include rules for it, but I think its best if there is some ambiguity as to whether these Shades are really who they claim to be...
I've been wanting to post a sample People for some time now, so introducing one now with a particular version of the Culture Hero or the First Hero might be appropriate. Especially after I'm still smarting from the earlier comment "while we certainly need a good Vikings-vs-Eskimos RPG", I find that maybe I'd better be a bit more forthcoming with examples. Ultimately, the feel should be Northmen, but with a twist that makes them other than some guy with a horned helmet.
As I noted earlier, I'm a bit wary of outlining a bunch of cultures lest the characters feel like they should be basing their off of mine. This group is relatively safe to use, since they're more angled towards NPCs and potential adversaries as will be seen in their description.
The Grinning Men, the Fanged Men
Origin Myth
The First Hero is the first father of all the Grinning Men. He had Twelve Sons and they ruled the earth, the other animals quailed in fear, and mimicked their language, aped their actions, in a travesty of the First Hero and his Twelve Sons. These twelve sons would form the twelve warring clans of the Grinning Men. But the source of this interclan warfare is a result of the death of the First Hero.
As he lay dying, he summoned his twelve sons together into the mystery lodge in which he lived. For three days the Twelve Sons fasted, and drank nothing but the First Hero's words of wisdom. And on the last day, as he lay dying, the First Hero told them, as he pointed to his skin: “This is my body and flesh which I give you: partake of my flesh and do this in remembrance of me, so I will always be with you.” He grabbed a chalice and knife, and drew a blade across his wrist, and as the blood drained into the chalice, he then stated: “In this cup is my blood, which is spilled for you, which you will drink to seal forever the bonds between us. My flesh shall be your meat, my blood shall be your mead, and forever we will be one, flesh of my flesh, and blood of my blood.”
And the twelve sons feasted upon their still-living father. But the story goes that as each ate his fill, one of their number hid a cup of blood, and stashed the divine flesh within his clothing, and thus ate less than his fill. As a consequence, this god thief, the flesh traitor was weaker than his siblings. But worse, when he left, he shared out the flesh and blood with his children and other outsiders for trinkets and women and song. The other eleven brothers, when they discovered the truth, swore to destroy the god thief and his monstrous progeny.
At one time or another though, each clan has accused the other of being the clan of the god thief. The main rival of a clan is always the accused, and in the long history of the clans each has accused every other one of the clans at one time or another of being the traitor clan, so the truth of who is the traitor is unknown to all.
Culture and Society
The Grinning Men are greatly feared and reviled by all the other peoples. Living deep within the hills and mountains, they rely heavily upon herding and raiding of others, and are among the fiercest of all the people. It is not tough to distinguish a Grinning Man from any other Northmen, for the Grinning Men file all their teeth down to points. For the Grinning Men, it is forever a reminder of their own mortality, for when speaking to another Grinning Man, each is reminded by the sharpened teeth of their peers that they too will one day die, as well as a sign of devotion to the teachings of the First Hero.
The Grinning Men are not savages, they believe themselves the first endowed with words and wisdom of the First Hero, and that language was stolen by them by the animals, who through speaking words, turned into mockeries of the Grinning Men. Each word is a sacred and ritual act, and thus the Grinning Men are taciturn and quiet, relying heavily upon a facial expressions, gestures, and sign language to speak of mundane things, for typically only weighty issues are to be discussed using the First Hero’s Gift. Among the other Northmen, the Grinning Men will speak, but only using simple words, lest they give away any secrets or words that the other Northmen have not yet stolen. To the Southrons, they Grinning Men will not speak at all, although they may mock them by speaking in gibberish.
The most solemn moment in Grinning Man society is the death of a peer. In a ritual abhorred by all other Northmen, the Grinning Men embark upon ritual cannibalism of their own family or friends. The deceased is butchered and eaten in a long feast in which the secret language is shared and spoken freely. As the flesh is devoured, the devoured spirit’s will live on forever in the bodies of all their friends, family, and their descendents. It is only in being consumed that one may return to the flesh and live on for eternity.
However, a mundane, unimportant, or crazy person is dragged out into the forest to allow the wild animals to consume it, returning the spirit to the wilderness where its soul belongs, not amongst the cultured souls revered by the Grinning Men. Those who have dishonoured or shamed the clan are merely butchered and fed to domesticated pigs and dogs or captive slaves.
When the Grinning Men capture or defeat a powerful Northmen or Southron foe, such as a war leader or Shadewalker, they will drag the body back to their own home, to devour the flesh and thus the power of the spirit. By consuming a powerful fallen foe, they can draw upon the foe’s strength and most importantly, reclaim that lost bit of the First Hero stolen from them! In the eyes of the Grinning Men, the only people capable of rivalling their power are those immorally possessing some of the stolen essence of the First Hero. That essence is the only thing that allows lesser people to even rival the power of the Grinning Men. Finally, by consuming the flesh of a fallen foe, they deny their rivals the ability of drawing upon that very power.
A few notes:
I was only conscious of one influence when I originally wrote this, the Last Supper imagery which I wanted to incorporate, and was the last idea I had for it. What originally prompted this idea was the question: What do they do with their dead? Each group would have their own answer, but for this group, there is no distinction between the divine and the physical, so thus eating their dead ancestors and keeping them near seems like a neat little trick. The Last Supper thing was added in there later just as a twist for the reader. I also wanted it to have a deeper theme, for flesh and blood are powerful symbols and should be reflected in the origin myth and resonate in the current culture as well.
The filed teeth remind me of one of the people's of the Black Kingdoms in Conan, as well as "Biter" from Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series. In both cases, cannibals and people with filed teeth are seen as sub-human savages, but I wanted to raise these two elements up to one of elitism and superiority over other people. I really wanted to subvert the cannibal is sub-human paradigm, at least in the context of this group.
On 5/26/2004 at 7:54pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
I think the standard Sorcerer Initiative system works fine in most cases. When Hagrid the Ageless, Entitled Son and Servant to Magnar the Bloodless leaps off the prow of his dragonship onto the rocking deck of a rival ship and shears the head off of his first foe before the foe can even react, pausing only to exult in his triumph before leaping further into the fray, the initiative system seems to work just fine.
But what if what is important is not who is fastest, but who is the most right? In a world of ancient rivalries, prodding ancestors whispering ancient grievances in your ears, and hated foes, and the same duels fought endlessly, I've got something else in mind - angry, hateful, bloody battle, driven by ancient animosities where nobody seeks to defend, but hacks mechanically at their foe with little regard for their own wounds, almost beserk in their fury.
Hagrid the Ageless, Entitled Son and Servant to Magnar the Bloodless looks across a body strewn battlefield at Agmar the Tenth, the First, the Last, the Eternal of his line. Both, prodded by fate and destiny and the demons in their minds, have found each other on the field of battle.
What follows is a battle echoed in the past and the future, fought long ago, and likely to be fought again, only in different vessels. Perhaps insults or comments are exchanged: Hagrid: "You've come to be butchered again. Slaughtering a pig like you is too good a work for a fine blade like this, a blade that has killed kings!" Agmar: "Aye, I know of your handiwork. The blood of murdered women and babes has quenched that blade as well! Remember, I witnessed your monstrous deeds at the Far Fells, just before I cut your hand off and you fled like a coward to die in some cave somewhere! I relish seeing your cowardice again!"
Both close in battle, swinging their blades at each other, incensed and immune to the injuries they suffer, striving only to cut their foe to pieces, even if it cost them their own life. After a mad few seconds both stagger back, breathing raggedly, blood oozing from ghastly wounds, until one staggers and falls in the snow...
So what I'm toying with is a Saga Duel or Saga Scene or Duel of Honor or something of the sort where driven by a heady mixture of hatred, history, and honor, two foes go toe to toe, throwing caution to the wind, shrugging off their own injuries in a terrible battle where both may easily die.
In this case, Initiative is thrown out the window. All penalties for damage are only resolved at the end of the action, both are so frenzied that they shrug off injuries that might kill instantly a lesser mortal. I'm also toying with one more mechanic: a sort of "intensity" modifier, a bidding process between the two combatants that increases the intensity and potential butchery of any battle. One or the other initiates the challenge and raises the ante by one bonus die for both the combatants. If the other desires, they can raise the ante by another bonus die, this can increase until the number of bonus dice is equal to the smaller pool used by either of the players. For example one is throwing four dice and the other six: the could ante or bid up to four additional dice: eight for the first and ten for the second combatant. The attacks are resolved simultaneous (defense is carried out on one die for the "suck it up defense". Then, after the attacks have been resolved the penalties accrue at the end, possibly resulting in the death of one or both of the participants.
I guess what I'm trying to capture is one mad moment of frenzied blood-letting. Would this work in the context of the Sorcer combat system? Does it fit the feel of the world?
On 5/26/2004 at 9:58pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Sounds good to me. There might be odd ramifications with some of the demon powers, however....
Anyhow, this is looking more and more like a supplement. :-)
Mike
On 5/27/2004 at 1:03pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Hey,
OS, the Sorcerer action/order (not "initiative") system works just fine for stuff like what you're describing.
1. Use the Sorcerer & Sword rules for buying down and saving victories. Blood flows and spurts but no penalties hit immediately.
2. Don't abort to defense. Carnage everywhere. Combined with #1, "blood flows and spurts" hops up a notch.
3. Permit Will and Humanity rolls (for hatreds and sympathies respectively) to factor is as motors for rolled-over victories. Moral weight and emotional intensity enter the picture mechanically.
Best,
Ron
On 5/27/2004 at 1:09pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
I'm not sure if anyone really noticed (since nobody has mentioned it), but everything has been very male-centered in this setting to date. That was intentional. I'm much more confident about the male perspective on Sorcery than the female perspective... so I'm really hoping for some feedback on the following part.
I've only begun to sketch out female sorcery here, since I'm not sure if its interesting enough or fits the feel of sorcery. So please, any thoughts at all, respond!
Two ways to do sorcery for women:
1) Women cast spells just like men. Imagine blood-frenzied Valkyries singing songs to their own warrior ancestors (presumably female) as they carve up foes with slender blades chilled with spirit ice. Everything written before is applicable to men.
2) Women have their own unique form of sorcery, proposed below.
I'm not an essentialist, believing that women are a breed apart and dramatically and fundamentally different from men. However, in much of the pulp literature, women are seen as mysterious, strange, alluring, and having strange powers that can charm and control men, and in such a male dominated society, I want women to have power on par with men, but different, mysterious, and foreign to create tensions between the two genders. So in exploring the themes of the genre and the ideas of the world, I've decided to create two different binary sorcery systems, one for men, the second for women. Everything that has come before is applicable only to men.
Descent is patrilineal in this society, and women cannot call upon their ancestors, but they have access to power perhaps far more powerful than any single ancestor...
Female Sorcery in the Mythical Past, the Haunted Present
All Northmen believe that they may one day wield great and immortal powers, but among the womenfolk of the Northmen, they already have that power.
It is said that the power of the womenfolk stems from the First Wife (as the Northmen call her) or the First Mother (as the womenfolk acknowledge her in their secret rituals). It is said that the First Wife or First Mother blessed all of her daughters with the power to bear children as she did, and that all women bear that divine spark of energy, and the act of giving birth is the result of sorcery. There is nothing mundane about motherhood, the whole process is steeped in arcane beliefs, rituals, and the power of an ancient blessing.
This the menfolk know, but little more. Men draw their power from their ancestors, their fathers for whom they are named after, but the women have no family, leaving their own and marrying into a different clan or family. Women draw their power, once instructed at the puberty rites at the rituals conducted by the mystery cults, that all women can wield magic, drawing upon what they call the primal power, the first energy that existed in the world, the potential for creation. This primal power, primal source, or first act, is channeled by all women when they conceive and give birth, and for most women it is the only significant moment when they draw upon that energy, for all women are warned of its dangers in the sacred rites women learn. Everyday usage of this power is more mundane, a muttered act of thankfulness over cooking soup, a brief prayer over a child’s fever, or songs of mourning for the dead.
Some women however, draw upon the primal power, using its innate potential for the purposes of attaining power and bending the political, religious, and physical worlds to their will. This has profound implications, and while this power rivals that of the Spirit Ancestors, things can go horribly awry as well. How can this primal power rival that of the ancient warrior heroes? Nearly every woman is tapped into the primal source at the moment of their birth, and it is whispered in their secret meeting halls that it is there that their soul will return, and thus almost every woman who has ever lived has come from and returned to the primal power. Every bit of gossip, every lived experience of the past is contained somewhere within the power. Again, nearly all women are connected to this knowledge on some level, and it is this power that gives women their keen sense of intuition and foresight often lacking in the menfolk.
Those women who tap into the source for great power are known as Wyrds. As they tap into the primal source that exists in the past, the present, and the future, they have incredible power of augury and divination. They question the ancient souls at the source, look through the eyes of their sisters in the present, and commune with the souls at the end of the future, seeing from the first moment on earth until the last moment. Such visions are not entirely reliable however, and all women using their Wyrd-sight risk madness and worse. Most of these oracular women are feared but respected, and only a few women choose such a route.
There are those Wyrds who go even further, the Wyrd-Wytches, who drain the power of the source to wield magics in the real world. Such women tempt fate by creating some sort of relic that captures energy from the source, bringing it into the physical world. Such energy-filled vessels are sentient, often tainted with the souls of former Wyrd women themselves who have tapped into such energy. Bound in items or anchored to bodies or locales, these primal spirits often have malign reputations. Animals fear to trend in such an area where the primal power flows unchecked and uncontrolled. These Primal Demons can be highly dangerous, away from the source they become tainted by the physical world and in particular, the needs, demands, and personalities of their summoners.
Whereas the Wyrds are respected, the Wyrd-Wytches are feared and mistrusted. Ostracized, they are rarely accepted anywhere, and their exile blights their soul and the demons they summoned. There are countless dark tales of immortal Wytches with unholy hungers that haunt the forests with their maddened spirits.
That's a sketch of Female Sorcery.
How it differs from Male Sorcery? I wanted female sorcery to be distinct, powerful, and yet to compare favorably with male sorcery.
1) All women are by nature magical, whereas men have to beg and plead and bully their ancestors to have access to those powers.
2) Female Sorcery is steeped in secrecy and gender-specific lore that is only taught to females. All men are ignorant of the exact nature of female magic. I want female Sorcery to have a sort of secret-sisterhood feel, but one where all women are in on the secret, this counters the male-bias in the setting. The women aren't of any clans or families, they are of a powerful community stretching through time and space.
3) Distinctive from male power, providing for tension between male and female as misunderstandings arise. Women are as powerful as men, but men don't quite understand female power and can't relate to it either.
4) A slippery slope approach: Women have the innate power, and they may gradually be drawn into Wytchdom by temptation.
5) Tensions within female communities: Yes, all women are powerful and related to the same source of power, but the temptations of power may draw some and not others, and I want for communities to be suspiciously eyeing their peers for signs of trespassing and draining off of power.
I have a lot of other ideas, some descriptors, cosmology, and power changes, but I don't want to launch full into this unless it fits the setting and the system. What works, what doesn't? Looking forward to your feedback!
On 5/27/2004 at 5:34pm, DannyK wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
About the death-duel stuff: it seems to work very nicely. Just one comment: it's great when the player decides to go berserk on his worst enemy and risk his own death in order to take the other guy down.
But what about when the PC takes on a hostile NPC Shadewalker, and the NPC escalates things to the point where neither is likely to survive?
This is either a flaw or a feature; it might make the PC's overly reluctant to take on enemy Shadewalkers.
On 5/28/2004 at 7:29pm, DannyK wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
After seeing some stunning pictures in the New York Times review of "The Day After Tomorrow", I was struck with the thought of running a game set in Ice Age New York, with Manhattan as forbidden holy ground, and one of those big climactic fights going down in iced-over Central Park.
It's one of those "a cool image is worth a thousand words" moments.
On 5/28/2004 at 9:23pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
DannyK wrote: After seeing some stunning pictures in the New York Times review of "The Day After Tomorrow", I was struck with the thought of running a game set in Ice Age New York, with Manhattan as forbidden holy ground, and one of those big climactic fights going down in iced-over Central Park.
It's one of those "a cool image is worth a thousand words" moments.
That's funny! When I first started writing this setting up, I kept getting a similar image myself of New York - but from about 7 or 8 years ago!
Twelve Monkeys - the Terry Gilliam film. The beginning of the film the protagonist is wandering around a frozen NY and you see that Lion roaring. I thought it was a very stunning and stark image, but it didn't immediately seem to have anything to do with my setting exactly! Wait! Saber-toothed tigers!
Saber-toothed tigers are now in the setting. The capital of the Emperor of the Warmon Dynasty. Not just the palace of the Emperor, but one of the greatest repositories of artifacts and tokens of power imaginable.
Now a ruined building, gaping with fallen columns like shattered teeth. A few bones and armor stick out of the snow cascading down the steps. A saber-toothed tiger emerges from the darkness, snarling, loping with feline grace. A few moments later torch light appears. A stout man in furs appears, bearing the stolen loot of an empire, his rough bag carrying unimagined wealth: relics of dead saints, the first sword ever forged, the only parchment bearing the writing of a god, diamonds the size of your fists, tears of oracular virgins turned to crystal and shining with colors never before seen...
The tiger growls and bristles, the snow drifts swirl as the wind howls, a ghostly image appears, the last Emperor, rendered in white and grey and silver and black, with blood still oozing from his wounds, staining the snow beneath with blood. The image shimmers and wavers in the winds. A voice whispers "You have plundered our land, but you shall not desecrate our sacred artifacts...".
The fur-covered figure spits into the snow. "Fah! My father slew you two decades ago! And I bear not only his blade, but his shade as well! Let us cross blades! Its not often you get the pleasure of slaying a second time!"
Anyone got any idea of what a saber tooth might be statted out as? Stamina 7 or 8?
On 5/30/2004 at 4:21pm, tetsujin28 wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
So, Scratch...when we gonna be able to buy this? :-)
On 5/30/2004 at 4:40pm, sirogit wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
I once used a sabretooth tiger in a one-shot Sword&Sorcerer game. I always envision them having the abilities Special Damage(Teeth) and Vitality(why does this seem so appropiate? Something about their ancientness, and a cat's tenacity and resilence to peril.) at power equal to their stamina, even if they're not Demons per se. 6-8 Stamina, High Will and whatever Lore seem appropiate.
I'd concur with Ron that the default Sword&Sorcery combat rules are all about an intense frenzy, providing neither of the combatants are willing to back down, so I don't see the use of modifying them.
Everything I've read of this system seems totally awesome. If you're looking to include rules for becoming a shade, it seems to me it would make sense basing it off the rules for becoming a Lich, with the alteration that your Humanity score plays in part in keeping your legend -yours-, so that the Shade retains your name and aspects of your legend rather than the Shades you have used.
On 5/31/2004 at 3:10am, DannyK wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Shucks, if I hadn't talked myself into running another online Nobilis game, I'd be highly tempted to run a game in this setting, just using what O.S. has posted so far.
Maybe by the time the queue gets that far, it'll be all nicely done. :)
On 6/1/2004 at 9:44pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Responses in general
Thanks for the feedback folks. I'm going to mull over the advice on the blood frenzied honor duels, perhaps playtest a few fights and see what happens.
Mini-supplement?
As for a mini-supplement, its possible. I've been exploring the themes and the world in greater detail (my outline's at 22 pages so far!) and there's a lot here that can be explored. That's what you've seen here plus a bunch of random notes and themes and ideas, so I might be able to throw something together.
Reflections on some of the distinctiveness
This game has, I think, a few things that make for a unique Sorcerer experience, absent in a lot of sorcerer games that I've read about. First, the "demons" are human, so this gives the game a less alien wierd aspect - the demons are much more understandable and easily relatable (I realize Sorcerer's Soul covers this sort of thing in some detail).
The way the game is set up, the humanity of the former Shade is constantly being brought up, in stories, tales, and possiby in-game flashbacks.
So the game has a historical element - the playes and GM make up the histories of their shades and the world as they play.
The game has its present perspective: the relationship with a past entity, no clean breaks - grappling with the legacy of the past which simply won't let some people live their lives fully in the present - in this case history casts a grim shadow over the lives of the living.
And ultimately, the game is about the future as well. Not just: Will you live a life that allows you to be revered as a champion-god forever, tasting the joys of live over and over again (at the expense of the living)? But there's a reflexive element as well: in looking and interacting with the Shades, the characters get a chance to see what the future holds for the shadewalkers themselves. I think Shades might have their petty, pathetic aspects, craving things and acting childish and petulant, weeping over past ills and loves and rivalries. Consider Cainnelscaith, the Scourge of the Six Isles and Shade to the Iron Warrior, now Shade to Theobar Longsong. Despite Cainnelscaith's great powers and renown, he's a bit mad and resorts to child-like states, breaking down and wanting to suckle off the breasts of grown women as if he was a mere baby. Theobar Longsong might in fact, not be interested in becoming eternal if this is what it is going to be like... forever... and ever... and ever...
Some Open Questions
But I've got no perspective on this right now, so I'm hoping for some feedback...
1) Is this setting in danger of looking like a beer swilling Hell's Angels beard and leather game, or a viking helmet game? Or have I edged that possibility out?
2) Is female magic compelling enough? Would you want to play a female sorcerer over a male sorcerer in this game? Or is it lacking something? Should I just stick with the Valkyrie idea?
3) re: The Grinning Men - Is this a good idea or not, to describe some of the possible cultures to include in the game? Is it filler? Does it infringe upon player or GM creativity, or is it a useful guide? Primarily, I hope its used by GMs for ideas, the players should come up with their own culture groups on their own, but its also nice to have if you throw a game together real fast or someone has a block.
4) Can you give a Shade kickers? I mean, they have unfinished business... Can you give them a kicker or does that detract from the Sorcerer? If it does, can you give them something like "Unfinished Business" or something of the sort to explain their continued hold on the living world? Can you have shifting needs? Maybe every couple of adventures, the fickle shade sees something from one of its lives and it has a conceptual shift - this makes for a much more human and dynamic relationship with the Shades...
On 6/1/2004 at 11:56pm, DannyK wrote:
RE: [S&S] Setting: The Mythic Past, the Haunted Present
Old_Scratch wrote: Responses in general
1) Is this setting in danger of looking like a beer swilling Hell's Angels beard and leather game, or a viking helmet game? Or have I edged that possibility out?
2) Is female magic compelling enough? Would you want to play a female sorcerer over a male sorcerer in this game? Or is it lacking something? Should I just stick with the Valkyrie idea?
3) re: The Grinning Men - Is this a good idea or not, to describe some of the possible cultures to include in the game? Is it filler? Does it infringe upon player or GM creativity, or is it a useful guide? Primarily, I hope its used by GMs for ideas, the players should come up with their own culture groups on their own, but its also nice to have if you throw a game together real fast or someone has a block.
4) Can you give a Shade kickers? I mean, they have unfinished business... Can you give them a kicker or does that detract from the Sorcerer? If it does, can you give them something like "Unfinished Business" or something of the sort to explain their continued hold on the living world? Can you have shifting needs? Maybe every couple of adventures, the fickle shade sees something from one of its lives and it has a conceptual shift - this makes for a much more human and dynamic relationship with the Shades...
1) It has a definite Viking flavor, but that's not a bad thing. Despite my joke earlier, it's good to be able to sum up the game idea in a brief sentence.
2) I need to go back and re-read that section. Honestly, I can't imagine playing one of those characters when I could play a treacherous warlord with ice in his beard.
3) Good colorful setting material is always a good thing, in my opinion. Sure, as GM I could do some research and brainstorming and come up with some workable cultures, but I'd rather have you do the work, and then build on it. Also, every colorful culture you describe is another chance for would-be players to say "Damn! I've got a killer character concept now!" Most of what you've let spill so far sounds great, and usable both for players and for the GM. I especially like the city of bells and the Grinning Men. They have a definite R.E. Howard flavor.
4) That's tricky. Your question made me think of the work I do with Alzheimer's patients, actually. A lot of them, when they're not too far gone, retain the passions of their youth... but they're not able to do much about them, and they lose touch with them easily. A elderly veteran might get very upset about the Japanese, but once you distract him, he lapses into vagueness and apathy.
If you imagine Shade-hood being anything like that, perhaps the Shades are faced with the unappealing choice between madness (pursuing their ancient hatreds and rivalries long past the point of irrelevance) and sinking into oblivion.