In a recent discussion my my Livejournal, one of the posters mentions something regarding "scare quotes" that I think is relevant to discourse here, as a sort of a footnote.

You forget, I think, that those of us who are trained in the use of language have different ways of using it than those who only encounter it as it's used by everyone else.

They're reacting to the general use of "scare quotes," where people use quote marks to show that they don't necessarily agree with something that other people are saying, or that they think that what they're "quoting" is silly and faintly idiotic. It's quite common in political writings these days, especially in the newspapers.

xiombarg wrote: The overuse of "scare quotes" as a polerizing device in other media might explain why people take exception to putting the phrase "industry" in quotes when talking about the RPG industry, and might explain why such a seemingly simple thing polarized discussion here.

It is an unfortunate fact that pollution of certain aspects of the English language may have had fallout for the Forge in the recent "hubris" blow-up.

Gods forbid we ever have opinions, eh?

greyorm wrote: Gods forbid we ever have opinions, eh?

Holy Jesus jump-up Christ. Can we give it a fucking rest? I mean, goddamn, people.

And the award for efficient use of blasphemy and cursing within the smallest possible sentence goes to....


LOL...


Yea, I agree with Ethan... Maybe it's time to take a step back, give everything a rest and try to "fix" (sorry about the quotes) the problems.

;)

Hello,

I'd like to make a point that bears extreme reflection for people here.

When you don't understand something, ask. If you are annoyed or offended by something, it is possible that you aren't understanding it, rather than it actually being what is upsetting you. Oh, maybe it is the awful and terrible thing that would be best served by getting your dander up. But check first.

In other words, not one person has asked, "Gee, Ron, what do you mean by putting the word 'industry' in quotes?" No - instead, you read a lip-curl into my expression or a certain snobbery-gleam in my eye as I type.

I'm not in the habit of correcting impressions that I think are based on overly-hasty judgments and snap reactions; I prefer to let people live with the consequences of such behavior, regardless of its impact on me. I am emphatically not a fan of the outlook of "be aware that you might be misunderstood, and take all possible pains to avoid it." I'm instead all about, be sure of what you're reacting to, and ask first if at all possible.

There's a reason for the quotes. All you ever had to do was ask. And no, at the moment I'm not inclined to offer the reason. I'll reserve a little cooling-off period first for myself.

Best,
Ron

John Kim wrote: As far as I've seen, that interpretation is correct perception of the intent. While they may have justification for doing so, the people who use quotes around the word "industry" are stating that RPG publishers do not merit being called an industry. If not that, then what do you think the quotes are for?

Well, as I said in the LJ post I linked to, I only know why I put it in quotes, and certainly didn't want to presume why any other poster -- including Ron -- decided to do so.

Certainly I know I would have liked to have been asked what I meant by that rather than jumping to conclusions. I just wanted to mention a reason for said conclusions that I hadn't considered.

Permit me to note that I cross-posted with Ron; he may have a different reason--I've never asked, because I assumed it was non-judgmental.

--M. J. Young

M. J. Young wrote: Permit me to note that I cross-posted with Ron; he may have a different reason--I've never asked, because I assumed it was non-judgmental.

OK,

Upon reflection, my comments poorly timed and fanned some flames here. Taken on their own, though, I don't think they should be terribly controversial. Ron has been openly and indeed bluntly critical of RPG publishing over the past three decades -- it was true when he wrote "The Nuked Apple Cart" and it remains true today. All I'm saying is that I expect that RPG industry folk who read that article or a similar posting will take exception to it -- including things like saying "so-called" and putting quotes around the word industry. Maybe it'll also give them pause to reflect on what they're doing, and see flaws in the system. But I think it's unreasonable to expect them to not take exception to it.

To turn this in a constructive direction -- the question is, what are we going to do about this in the future? i.e. If someone like Pramas takes exception and says something equally critical about the Forge, how are we going to deal with it?

First, I do not know what Ron meant when he wrote ``the so-called RPG "industry"''. I assumed that it was non-judgemental simply from how the post parsed.

Second, industry, schmindustry. Yes, I know that especially American financial analysts will tell you that the water industry in their shower market was going down precipitously this morning and for a while even the soap went bearish until it was stopped by technical support at the bath tub level. Yes, I even charitably assume that makes sense to them. But beyond that limited world?

Does anybody really think it would be good if you ran a small publisher like a steel plant, or a car assembly facility, or a paint factory, or an oil rig? That's industry. A fanatical attention to process and repeatability, to assurance and certainty, to producing to tolerances that take complex equipment to even measure and to putting out exact copies of what you put out yesterday.

By industrial standards, the RPG "industry" is jaw-droppingly sloppy, inconstant and even ignorant of their performance metrics. And they should be. They're playing a very different game, where you need very different characteristics to survive and thrive. They live in markets that shift more rapidly, are less predictable and a lot smaller. They put out products where no two are ever the same. They need significant creativity for each new product, and so on. The printshop that prints up your books and boxes, hopefully they are run like an industry, but not the publisher.

SR
--

John Kim wrote: But I think it's unreasonable to expect them to not take exception to it.

I can tell you how I read the phrase 'so-called "industry"', because to me it tapped into something that I've read numerous RPG authors say -- the fact that if you were in this just for money, it was a bad move.

Regardless of the size of your business within the field, you're not going to be rolling in money. Most people regard working in the field as being a terrible time-money gamble if you're comparing it against something like working at a large company or owning your own sandwich shop. That means that the people who are in it are passionate about what they do, and they choose to do it for reasons that are not purely monetary.

That's the type of "industry" we're talking about. Some people in other businesses would laugh out loud at the volume and margins being dealt with, and ask why anyone would want to work in this business.

And I'm sure that some people in the business would respond defensively to that assertion, but it's true. Nobody's in the roleplaying games business unless they care about "more than money". I don't think that's offensive at all.

Lesse. What Andrew, Rob, and MJ said.

That said, I don't think that the blow up that happened was at all over the use of quotes. It had been done a lot prior to that with no problem. The context in which "industry" was used was far more telling than the quotes were.

Mike

Lesse. What Andrew, Rob, and MJ said.

That said, I don't think that the blow up that happened was at all over the use of quotes. It had been done a lot prior to that with no problem. The context in which "industry" was used was far more telling than the quotes were.

Mike

Hello,

John, you wrote,

the question is, what are we going to do about this in the future? i.e. If someone like Pramas takes exception and says something equally critical about the Forge, how are we going to deal with it?

Ron Edwards wrote: Instead, due to that background, they are possibly at higher risk for not being able to participate constructively.

GMSkarka wrote: If you people can't see the arrogance and hostility inherent in that, then this place has gotten worse than I had previously suspected.

I think there's some bad communications disconnect going on, GMS, because I know lots of people react to that kind of sentence in the same way you just did. On the other hand, I don't at all: I see exactly what Ron means, and I think he's right. I don't see it as 'arrogant' or 'hostile' to say that everyone's got equal status as a poster here, regardless of history, and that having a certain history which may lead you to expect a certain kind of treatment, which no-one reliably receives here, may make you more at risk for violating local standards of discourse.

There's no "communications disconnect". The problem (and its one that has been stated by more than one person, so it's a little hard to write it off, and yet folks at the Forge seem to all the time) is that a lot of proclaimations about the industry (right down to the insulting cuteness of putting it in quotes) are flat-out wrong.

People who work in that industry, who are therefore in a position to point out that these broad pronoucements ARE wrong, are those that are claimed by Ron to be "at higher risk for not being able to participate constructively."

It seems as though "being able to participate constructively" means "swallowing Ron's positions and statements about the industry, even when you know him to be mistaken."

you people

I fail to see how the subject of it being an industy or an "industry" has anything to do with roleplaying in play or design, but OK if you want to focus on that.

Hello,

Gareth, I don't consider you to be posting in good faith in this thread. I think you are trolling and attempting to garner posts, preferably those in which the posters are losing their cool, by combining insults with virtuous hand-wringing. This is a game you play at other websites, and that dog will not hunt here.

For anyone else who's interested, tons of RPG publishers interact here with no trouble whatsoever. Many of them have offered corrections to any number of claims, mine included, with no trouble whatsoever. Some of them have accepted corrections (or new perspectives) in kind.

The passage Gareth quoted refers to the very clear, basic, and understandable principle that a site dedicated to self-publishing of X is often not going to be easily gripped by people who are dedicated to different forms of publishing. That's easily observed in music, comics, book-publishing, and whatever.

And again, as I stated above, my habitual use of quotes around "industry" is a pretty simple and basic thing. However, I'm not interested in explaining it to anyone who presumes, straight up, that it is a form of cutesy mockery; that's an exercise in futility.

Best,
Ron

GMSkarka wrote: If you people can't see the arrogance and hostility inherent in that, then this place has gotten worse than I had previously suspected.

Ron Edwards wrote: Gareth, I don't consider you to be posting in good faith in this thread. I think you are trolling and attempting to garner posts, preferably those in which the posters are losing their cool, by combining insults with virtuous hand-wringing. This is a game you play at other websites, and that dog will not hunt here.

Jack Spencer Jr wrote: I fail to see how the subject of it being an industy or an "industry" has anything to do with roleplaying in play or design, but OK if you want to focus on that.

You're character-assassinating me!
No you are!
No you are!

Pooh. This thread just became worthless and is now closed. All inclined to hold it up as evidence for my "inability to stand and fight" may take a number; I'd rather have that happen than see Forge space utilized for dick-swinging for one post longer.

Best,
Ron

Edited to note my cross-post with Ron. Apologies.

GMSkarka wrote: I was genuinely interested in pointing out in clear quotes why some folks hold the opinion of The Forge that they do.

Nice attempt to cloud the issue through character assassination, though.

Clearly a cross-post on that one. Raven, seems like you hit the same wavelength I did.

Closed for real.

Best,
Ron