I'm trying to create a system which enhances a more realistically based martial arts setting. One of my design goals is to get across more the philosophy and mental aspects of martial arts as opposed to the technique-fu that many other systems have.

For me, principle is more important than technique, and preparation (readiness of the mind and body) is more important than raw talent. There are reams and reams of martial literature from Masters past that point to this truth of the ultimate skill in martial combat. The bottomline is that technique is only necessary so that you learn the princinple of no-technique. It is the the martial parallel of the Buddhist principle: Formless is form, form is formlessness.

Techniques then are merely the crutch used in the learning process to develop real skill. Real skill is more a matter of emptying the mind, attuning one's self to his environment and letting go of all attachments. Half the battle should be before the fists start flying.

But I see a couple (huge) pitfalls:

1) It's not as dramatic.
People want to see the flying fists and thunder legs. Steeling one's self for combat and emptying the mind is not seen as exciting as leaping 20' into the air to smash your heel through your opponent's jaw.

2) The problem of differences in skill
While this is easier to imagine for Master's, what I'm looking for IS at the level of masters. So how do you represent this for people who are still more reliant on technique and force?

3) It's harder for the player's themselves to grasp
Many of the martial concepts I want to portray are simply very difficult for the non-martial artist (in real life) to grasp...and perhaps even difficult for many of them. While most players have heard of Ki (chi) and think of it as energy, it is more than this. And how do you explain Mushin (no mind, Japanese), Ting Jing (Listening energy, Chinese), Musubi (harmony, Japanese), Fa Jing (power, Chinese) or Ma-Ai (distance, Japanese)? It's easy to understand how a punch or kick works, but it's much harder to understand the mental (and in some sense spiritual) processes that underlie the technique.

In order to try to resolve problem 1), I think it's necessary to elaborate on the tension between the combatants before the first blow is struck. It's very similar to a gun duel...all the tension is in waiting for the first person to draw their gun. Going with this theme, I was even thinking of having a "bidding" system for the person who wished to strike first. Bidding lower means going first, but also having less effectiveness because you don't have the time to assess the other person's readiness, as well as executing your own technique more quickly. Bidding higher means being able to evaluate your opponent more carefully, looking for suki (opening, Japanese) as well as understanding the opponent's intent. By having several tactical options, the intensity of the "pre-fight" can become more interesting than the fight itself. It's not so much a psych-game as it is an opening of the combatants perception of each other.

To answer problem 2), the best recourse is to somehow reconcile a technique-based system with a "higher-order" system. I think the higher-order elements are some of the things I mentioned previously, such as Mushin, Ma-ai, Ting Jing, and others like Zanshin (awareness, Japanese). Lower level practitioners should have low levels of these higher-order traits, though it could be quite possible that they are very proficient in the actual technique. If technique answers the question, "How well can you do it?", the higher-order traits answers the question, "How well can you use it?".

The final problem is the hardest to solve. It requires that the players try to understand the terminology, but without real-world practice, the best way to understand is through reading lots of examples. It also means that if players are to be actual combatants, they must endeavor to learn how to fight using the system rules. In other words, the player himself must become good at combat, and not just the character. I am reluctant to do this, but with the level of detail that I want, I'm afraid that this is necessary.

Following this flow of logic, it means that the system will not be narrative-effect based, but tactical-choice based. However, from these choices, a mental picture can be derived in which there is some leeway as to its interpretation. For example, let's say that a character has chosen to defend himself and chosen a bind principle. When the attacker attacks, the defender rolls as per the game mechanics to see if he is successful or not. A bind can be used in conjunction with several other modifiers, such as redirection, takedown, disarm, lock, or break. The defender chooses a bind/takedown, and visualizes the move as a centering pivot with the attacker spinning 360 degrees until the attacker is taken down. He also could have chosen the manuever instead to be an irimi (entering movement) with the focal point of the attack intercepted, and the attacker taken down in something similar to a Tai Otoshi (hip throw).

I'd like to get any comments on whether this is feasible or not, or suggestions on how to implement such a game system mechanic. I'd also appreciate any feedback on the idea of trying to simulate the more philosophical and esoteric elements of the martial arts as opposed to the purely physical elements of combat.

It sounds like a really interesting idea, I'd like to see the final product some day. Here are some thoughts.
Having players start the game with characters who are supposed to be familiar with all the advanced technique, jargon, and mental themes sounds really hard, and I think that it stands a good chance of failing. It's like those games (white wolf comes to mind) where to play effectively it seems like each player must do alot of reading just to be familiar with the setting and themes of the game.
I would recomend it being a game of discovery into the martial art themes/ideas, so beginning characters/players don't need to know much because they'll learn it along the way. Kind of like not needing to study all the spells in D&D until you can actually cast them. In the beginning they could mostly rely on their punch/kick/flying eagle meets tiger strike skill or whatever, and move up to understanding/mastering their ki, muchin, etc. But then, I'm not that familiar with the martial concepts you mentioned.
Another thought breaking them down into more familiar/wester terms. This may seem like "dumbing in down", but unless you're playing with kung-fu experts, I think that you may have to.
I think that you could definitely invole some mechanics into the more intangible aspects of martial concepts. A bidding system could work well, but I think that it could be very slow. For the physical aspect, maybe you could provide information (perhaps on the character sheets) for which moves work well in responce to other moves. Perhaps a chart or maneuver tree might work. You might even provide in game rewards/bonuses for responding quickly/accurately to combat.
IF you have a system/mechanic in mind, knowing what that is/how it works would be helpful in deciding how the intangible notions could affect combat.
Good luck.
-Craig

Hi,

There's a couple of things that might help you out. As far as giving people mental "anchor points" about what you're talking about, check out some japanese samurai movies. The duels from Seven Samurai and Sword of Doom come to mind. Also, the entirely of the manga, Vagabond(comic rendition of Musashi), is perfect material. I'd simply get a good collection of these and list them as inspiration for folks to draw on before playing your game.

Second, two games out right now you might want to take a look at include Riddle of Steel and Heroquest. Riddle of Steel involves at its core, a strategy of how much you're willing to commit to attack or defense and trying not to leave yourself open while luring your opponent into making bad choices. Heroquest's extended contests work perfectly for the mental contests, particularly if you check out some of the duels in Vagabond, which often include flashbacks, epiphanies, etc. Both games have quickstart rules available for free on the net.

Chris

Dauntless:

Sounds great, man.

Howzabout this:
The impression I'm getting is that Mushin, Ting Jing, Musubi, etc. are NOT going to be a set of higher-order attributes. I think it'd be hard to do elegantly and, also, different schools will have differing philosophies. (My meditation is withdrawal from the world, yours is entering into it...)

So we have instead a whole slew of fancy-ass higher-order options, accessible only by pursuing certain paths. You talk about low-level practitioners, so there'll be some entry-level stuff - which you could do a couple of different ways: Punch, Kick [bland and introductory] or Inside Dragon Strike, Spinning Axe Kick [moderately flavorful and more specific], or Entering In [approaches, without specifics]).

And at least one level of pinnacle skills/ philosophies on top (No Mind).

I'm seeing a gamist layering of proficiencies. Assuming you're not going No Myth*, you can set out some basic schools, described as an outsider would see them Aikido: lots of joint locks and throws, circular motion, using the attacker's energy. Then the crunchy skills bit gives the techniques or whatever: joint locks x2, throws, evasive motion x2, grounding (or whatever). And directions available for further growth dodge missile, etc. In this part, you'll also include whatever you see as the pinnacle(s) for that path (Wa, or Zanshin, or whatever).


With this setup, you only need to get the players to buy-in to the basic stuff. The outward form. Maybe not even list the higher skills available, just include some text description or something. And as the character becomes more committed and starts growing, new options become available. Much less overwhelming and (hopefully) by this time the player is quite clear on the application.

All this is just a verbose solution for your problem #3.

As for #1, that's all about game mechanics. You say you want a significant amount of time to be on the pre-fight test of wills, so this pre-fight stuff needs to be a focus of the rules.
Spend a given pre-strike round:
Giving yourself a +1 defensive bonus
Giving yourself a +1 attacking bonus
Divining something about adversary's power
Divining something about adversary's techniques
Bid up the conflict by X points (meaning that whomever loses the initial roll, him or me, will take X points of extra damage)
...

And so the adversaries spend some time staring at one another, preparing for the fight, until one leaps in. Possibly the person who does this gets a bonus, to offer a contrary priority. All this could be pretty dramatic - do I want to spend time beefing up myself, or nail him before he does the same?

With several layers to the resolution (attack, defend, damage, check guts, etc), the crunchy goodness of the differing techniques can come in to play. Iaido gives a +2 on inital strike, while Ki-ai gives a +2 vs your opponent's guts roll. Maybe some of these require two rounds of prep to do. Maybe Iaido takes no rounds to do. Oh, the possibilities.
This can also gives concrete meaning to the fluffy philosophical terms (Ma-ai, or whatever).

Maybe for the more basic skills, all applications are spelled out, while the pinnacle skills have explicit mechanical impact but also offer player-defined Other Effects. Hmm!


Of course, all this is adds up to the beginnings of a fairly heavy system. The alternative is hand-waving and improv but, I agree with you, it might be hard to get the players on board with the esoterica in that case.

Sounds like you have some good ideas. Good luck.
-Matt



*No Myth (of reality): nothing in the game world exists until explicitly defined. So players could, for instance, describe any combination of skills and it's a valid school that has always existed.

Something to ponder. For a more mental aspect of the game perhaps these are attributes that fluxuate or are at least more dynamic through the course of each game. They may rely on dice rolls, behind the scenes sort of stuff while the up front actual combat is more simplified. If you want to avoid lots of fancy moves then get a core set and allow players to make up names for them, and the terms and conditions of how to use them.

Say for instance that you only have a few basic moves: Punch, Kick, Block, Throw, Grapple. They have a few attributes behind the scenes (I am thinking this with Gamist goals in mind BTW). Let's say they have a permanent attribute of Steel and a dynamic attribute of Wind. They spend some wind to harden their body and improve their reflexes. They have a defined techinque of Iron Punch which dictates they spend a certain amount, and consequently do a certain amount of damage.

The opponent Has a permenant attribute of Wood and a Dynamic attribute of Earth. This opponent spends earth to grapple the punch. The raw scores are compared and a GM dictates the outcome. They turn to square off again deciding which elements to use for round 2. This turns eventually into a rock paper scissors with a little wagering (if all pre-action is kept to the player and revealed together).

The use of the permanent attributes are a product of growing skill from fledgling to master and the dynamic is a wager of the mental ability. A master may not wager much and still ahve a greater total than a young pupil. The dynamic attributes could even follow POOL rules to a degree.

JOE--

frictorius-
I agree that the learning curve is going to be steep, but I don't seem uch way around it without getting rid of some of the detail which I'm even more loathe to do.

It's interesting that you mention that the game could be a discovery process because in my initial concept for the game setting, I had imagined the archetypical teacher/student stroty as a vehicle to help illustrate the game setting and game mechanics. One of my goals with the game design is to allow a slow and steady advancement of skills, but to capture a true hallmark at least of one Zen school of thought (Rinzai)...sudden enlightenment.

Bankuei-
Right now I'm drawing a lot of my inspiration from Aikido, especially Senseis Mitsugi Saotome (the last Uchi Deshi of Morihei Ueshiba) and William Gleason. I've also read the following:
The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi
The Life-Giving Sword by Yagyu Munenori
Secrets of the Samurai and Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere both by Westbrook and O'Ratti
Comprehensive Applications of Chin Na, Shaolin White Crane, The Root of Chinese Chi Kung, and Muscle/Tendon Changing & Marrow/BrainWashing Chi Kung all by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming
Hsing Yi Chuan Theory and Applications by Master Liang Shou-Yu and Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming
The Tao of Jeet Kune Do by Bruce Lee

And these are just the books on my shelf in front of my computer, as there are a few more that I'm too lazy to get :) I'm currently trying to get my hands on a copy of The Boddhisatva Warriors, as I'd like to see the Indian influence on martial arts, and how the Kshatriya warrior caste (Hindus) influenced Buddhism (Siddartha Gautama, the Buddha, was of the Shakyamuni tribe, and his father was a Kshatriya).

I'm trying to draw a lot of real-world inspiration, especially from the anecdotes and little stories contained in these books. Some of these little stories gave me goose-bumps the first time I read them....something no anime or manga has ever done for me. Currently though, my favorite movie of all time is The Last Samurai (historical inaccuracies and the ending withstanding).

I think this is one area where infusing a lot of color into the rule system is important. If the focus of the game revolves around martial arts, then you're going to want to include specifics in the rules, even if it's just example maneuvers with a bit of flavor text.

Those examples from the books you mention, which may revolve more around how the combatants view the world (and how that colors their preparation for battle) seem like they could be adapted into example 'stances' or paradigms that would be worth listing.

For example, even though I've never run a martial arts game in Hero, I tend to flip through The Ultimate Martial Artist supplement for that game when I'm looking for martial arts ideas. Even things like the descriptions of the various arts (internal vs. external) and the names of the maneuvers do something to give me a framework from which to imagine what could happen. If I have to start from scratch, I personally fall back into describing "punch/kick/throw" maneuvers just because I don't know enough to feel comfortable improvising within that framework.

This is why I really like the system in Sex & Sorcery -- it's very open, basically describing how different moves 'flow' into each other, but the ways they flow sparks my imagination.

Garbanzo-
You're right that it will be very hard to do the higher-order elements elegantly or with any justice. And as you also pointed out, different martial schools have different philosophies regarding how one could best "win". Some schools focused purely on the physical aspects, and left any spiritual or philosophical elements to the whims of the practitioner.

As a side note, I'd like to point out that me personally, I see meditation as neither focusing on the world, nor focusing within. Rather it is as Takuan (a famous Buddhist priest who advised both Miyamoto Musashi and Yagyu Munenori about applying Zen to swordsmanship) said, "the mind should be nowhere in particular". He went to great lengths to describe that the mind should have no abiding place...no place to stop. Only when the mind is constantly moving is it in its natural state.

This seems to go at odds with the notion of concentration, where the mind is fixated on one thing. But as Takuan points out, concentration is just a stepping stone on the path to still the mind. It is not the end of meditation, it is just a means.

I do think I'll probably go down the Schools route. Being trained under a school lets the character breathe in the philosophy and perspective of that schools thought. It also gives them access to the physical techniques unique to that style.

Techniques however I think should be defined not so much in how they are implemented, but rather what effect do they cause? For example, Chin Na are the techniques of joint locks and cavity presses which immobilize an opponent. It is based upon knowledge of the human anatomy and uses pain to control the opponent. Aikido similarly has many joint locks, but the main intent and how they are applied are slightly different. But the effect (controlling or immobilizing the opponent) is the same, and is what really matters. Some techniques are more efficient than others, for example, it has been proven that the Korean style side kick where the supporting leg pivots on the ball of the feet such that the heel of the supporting leg is facing the target is more powerful than the Okinawan style of side kick where the supporting legs heel does not point to the target (in the Korean method, the pivoting of the heel adds a rotational torque to the force, the disadvantage is somewhat decreased stability).

I'm still working on the mechanics of the actual combat options....but it's going to be a very crunchy system. More crunchy than The Riddle of Steel, and IMHO, more realistic too. I never liked TROS's decision that there are no simultaneous attacks, and I also feel that being the attacker is too much of an advantage. The Japanese coined a term, Ai Nuke, which means "mutual destruction" because it was not uncommon for two warriors to kill themselves in battle (and not just a mortal wound where one walks off). I also feel that TROS places too much emphasis on the attacker gaining initiative (whereas in the east, it is usually seen as more advantageous to let the attacker go first so that you can counter). Having studied some Aikido (as well as a little European foil and epee fencing), and reading books on Iaido and Kendo, they all point to the mastering of Ma-Ai (space-distance) in order to control the timing and rhythm of battle. Morihei Ueshiba even said that one you have mastered Ma-ai, speed is irrelevant. Bruce Lee says something very similar in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

All this crunchiness means a high learning curve, complicated all the more so due to the esoteric nature of many martial schools of thought. I also worry that I won't do a martial school fair justice (I've had about 2 years of Shotokan, a year of Aikido, a year of Choy Lay Fut, and a smattering of Baguazhang and Escrima) in how it is implemented.

dragongrace-
I don't have in mind so much a pool of dice system, but I do have a pool of a different sort. I've already decided that there is something called Focus and Drive. Focus is made up of two things, Concentration and Awareness. Drive is also composed of two things, Passion and Discipline.

Focus-Concentration: Using this allows a character to narrow all of his effort into a laser-like focus. He can ignore distractions, and this tends to make the technique more powerful or accurate. The price is that it reduces the character's defenses (against others...he could use Concentration to defend against one focal attack) because he has sacrificed some of his awareness in order to focus on the task.

Focus-Awareness: This is similar to Mushin. It is the ability to be aware of all things without being occupied or captured by it. If the mind is captured by something, then it loses some of its capacity elsewhere. Therefore wareness is emptiness of thoughts of life or death, victory or defeat, or extraneous thinking. Paradoxically, one can not "try" to enter this awareness state...it simply happens. Game effect wise, there is a random chance of entering this state...more skilled masters have a better chance of entering this state of awareness (some always being in it).

Drive-Passion: Similiar to TROS's spiritual attributes, these are the character's emotions which help fuel his actions. This is based on the Chinese concept of the two minds, Hsin and Yi. Hsin is the emotional mind which motivates us and inspires us, but is not logical or rational. It empowers us, but it must be led by Yi, the wisdom mind. While emotions can greatly empower an action, much like the Dark Side of the Force, they have its drawbacks. Like concentration, passions blind us to other events around us, and it also endangers one in losing control of one's actions.

Drive-Discpline: This is Yi in action. It is the foregoing of reward or the continued action in the face of negative reinforcement. It is a measure of will, wisdom and duty. Discpline is very useful but is also very tiring, as a person can only drive himself so much in a period of time. The spirit may be willing but the flesh is weak.

As can be seen, each of these elements has its pros and cons (well except for Awareness...but it can only be entered randomnly, or perhaps after a period of concentration to "still the mind").

There's also physical fatigue and mental fatigue which are dynamic pools (actually a part of my Damage Tracking System) that affect other traits.

I like how you divided up the mental/spiritual aspects of the martial arts. I think that the same thing could be used in other games/situations, not just martial combat.
While I know it's one of your major goals to make the martial arts and schools as realistic as possible, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It sounds like you already have a great deal of knowledge and are committed to thurough research, so your game should be more detailed and accurate than most (if not all) other martial arts games available. I bet most people who game won't know enough to contradaict you. Plus I don't think that many ninjas role-play ;-)
Something to keep in mind is to not have too many schools to choose from. In my mind, each school/style seems kinda like a class. And creating a character with 20, 30, 40+ classes to choose could take a very long time and maybe intimidate some players. Personally, I think that 8-12 is a good number. (classes, schools, tribes, styles, spheres, etc.) If you're going to include politics between schools, the less the better so as to not overly complicate the setting.
This sounds like it could be a really interesting game.
-Craig

Hi D,

Good list. As far as communicating the idea of the awareness level of combat, I'd recommend including those books, plus anything and everything with a narrative that SHOWS that sort of thing in action. Movies, comics, books, etc, tend to kick the idea into people's heads much faster than giving them the concepts to work with.

Chris

Focus-Concentration: Does this correspond to a Chinese concept? Does this correspondence with Yang?

Focus-Awareness (Mushin): Does Mushin correspond with Yin?

Drive-Passion (Hsin): "Hsin is the emotional mind which motivates us and inspires us, but is not logical or rational." Does Hsin correspond with Yin?

Drive-Discpline (Yi): "It is a measure of will, wisdom and duty." Does Yi correspond with Yang? (The 27th Hexagram of the I-Ching <Yi-Jing> is called, "I". Also I or Yi in I-Ching or Yi-Jing.)

Mental Fatigue: Is this a Yin/Yang unitary principle? The union of "concentration", Mushin, Hsin, and Yi? Is their a corresponding Chinese concept?

Do you know of any alternate spellings of Mushin, Hsin, and Yi? Do you have any favorite web links to look into these concept? Do you know of any correspondences with the I-Ching?

I am developing a Western Occult oriented RPG with correspondence to Eastern concepts. However, my limited knowledge of Eastern concepts is principly through the Western tradition as it relates to the Eastern. My grasp of martial arts is little.

I see correspondences between your system and mine*, however I need to look into these concepts before contributing anything other than questions.

*Indeed, I should, as I am intentially developing correspondences with the I-Ching, the five elements (eastern and western), Tarot, Enochian Chess, etc.

Cemendur-
All things can be seen as Yin or Yang (or as the Japanese would call it, In or Yo). Yin Concentration is really what I've termed Mushin. So in that sense you are right. Yang Concentration is more active, and this was the effect I intended for what I termed Focus-Concentration.

Hsin is more Yang than Yin. Hsin is actually generated (according to Chinese chi kung theory) by "fire chi", and fire chi is Yang. This fire chi in turn generates a "mind". Since Hsin is born of fire chi, it normally is Yang. However, it is possible for it to be Yin. For example, someone who is depressed could generate Hsin from "water chi". The important thing to always remember about Yin and Yang is that they are relative terms, not absolutes.

Yi is more Yin because it is calm, stable and secure. And you're right, Yi can also be spelled I (depending on which phonetization system you are using). So Hsing- Yi Chuan literally means, "Shape Mind Fist".

As for alternate spellings of Mushin, if you look at the kanji, it's actually two characters, Mu and Shin. Mu means void or emptiness, and Shin means mind. So you might occasionally see Mu-shin or Mu Shin. Yi as noted above can be spelled I. I don't know of any alternate spelling of Hsin however.

There is a related component to Hsin and Yi called Shen. Shen roughly translates as "Spirit", but its job is the command and control center of one's Chi (Qi or Ki, prana, anting-anting, or whatever you want to call it). Yi in turn also regulates Shen (mainly through controlled breathing), but this alone is not enough. Shen not only controls chi, but in turn needs it to run properly (and breathing is one of the three sources of Chi, the others being one's food, and one's inborn chi...so breathing helps "fuel" the Shen) . When you form a thought that leads to action, it starts in the Yi, and then goes to Shen. Shen then controls the Chi to flow to the necessary body parts.

I highly recommend reading Takuan Soho's book, (in English) The Unfettered Mind. It delves alot into the concept of Mushin.

One of these days I'm going to finish reading the I Ching and Tao Te Ching, but I've been spending more time reading Buddhist stuff. But Taoism is definitely interesting, so when time presents itself, I'll slowly work through some Taoist literature. Shintoism is also quite fascinating, and if you're curious about a look at Shintoism from a martial perspective then I recommend William Gleason's book, The Spiritual Foundations of Aikido (most people think that Zen had the greatest impact on the Samurai, but Shinto had at least as great an impact...if anything Buddhism had a greater impact on the Ninja than the Samurai). In fact, Shinto is the main inspiration behind Aikido, not Zen. I've also only skimmed through The Analects, so other than reading synopsis of Confucious, I'm not too familiar with Confucian principles and its influence on martial arts.

One last point about my game....having been fascinated by The Last Samurai, I am intrigued by the concept of the modern era crushing a simpler way of life. In that sense Edward Zwick and I share a great common interest, for I also have a keen interest in how the industrialization process also conquered the South during the American Civil War, and drove some Native American Indians to near extinction. So the time period from about 1860-1910 is very fascinating to me (and this period covers the Meiji Restoration, The Boxer Rebellion, The American Civil War and Indian Wars, the many British Colonial Wars including the Boer War, and the Sepoy Rebellion...well the Sepoy Rebellion was in 1857, but close enough). So I'm going to include a "force of mechanization" in the game that represents a great threat to the way of life of the cultures of the "eastern" side.

I've studied martial arts so I know what it's like to stand across from someone and wonder what they're going to try to hurt you with.

I've found that I tend to look for general indicators of what type of attack my opponent is going to come with. In that sense, I prepare to defend my head, my body, my arms or legs. I also have to mentally set aside how much I'm willing to commit to a counterattack. Each maneuver flows naturally into the next so if I defend my head, I'm in position to punch at my opponents head (my hands are already up). However, I could also commit to a riskier move and attack my opponents body. It's harder because I have to move to a new position, risking my opponent catching on and adjusting his attack. He's already on the offensive so if I give my intentions up, I'm at a disadvantage on counterattack.

So you see how you can use a more cerebral type of gameplay where combatants feel their way around each other. Perhaps using very powerful attacks only as diversions for simpler attacks with a greater chance of success. Purely technique based combat systems don't allow for this (the strongest technique wins) so if you use a system of reading your opponents intentions, the combat will be perhaps closer to what you're looking for.

Dauntless wrote: . . .One of my design goals is to get across more the philosophy and mental aspects of martial arts as opposed to the technique-fu that many other systems have. . .

. . .But I see a couple (huge) pitfalls:

1) It's not as dramatic.

People want to see the flying fists and thunder legs. Steeling one's self for combat and emptying the mind is not seen as exciting as leaping 20' into the air to smash your heel through your opponent's jaw.

Dauntless wrote:

2) The problem of differences in skill

While this is easier to imagine for Master's, what I'm looking for IS at the level of masters. So how do you represent this for people who are still more reliant on technique and force?

Dauntless wrote:

3) It's harder for the player's themselves to grasp. . .

Dauntless wrote:

. . .I'd like to get any comments on whether this is feasible or not, or suggestions on how to implement such a game system mechanic. I'd also appreciate any feedback on the idea of trying to simulate the more philosophical and esoteric elements of the martial arts as opposed to the purely physical elements of combat.

Dauntless:

Your collection of Drive traits and Focus traits reminds me of the system I'm working on (here).
It's all about the way that different cultures conceptualize and resolve the same problem differently; it's always seemed like a good match also for martial arts schools.

The gist (as written):
Two sets of attributes. For any action, take one from column A and one from column B, and then add the skill.
[code]
Column A | Column B
======================
Social | Flow
Mental | Focus
Physical | Balance[/code]
And so, the point of all this, is that if my dude is all about Flow (i.e., it's his best attribute), this doesn't just dictate his sinuous combat grace, it is also something he's going to use in other situations. He'll maybe be a fast-talker, or mentally nimble, or whatever.
Each column is essentially an axis, making an implied 3x3 grid of attributes, with commonalities between them.
I'm all about culures: everyone's got one and each one gives certain attribute bonuses. Scratch cultures and put in "Schools," and you're set.


My original inspiration for all this, interestingly, was Aikido. If making-good-fit is a habitual way you focus your energy, it becomes more than dojo practice.

For -hmm, unnamed- World of Dauntless, you'd replace my generic attributes with cooler, more martial artsy stuff. Maybe your two axes are (Focus or Drive) and (Single-pointed-will or broad awareness). Maybe totally different.

The main good thing I see with this is that (say you also end up with an implied 3x3 grid) it wouldn't be too hard to map Something Cool (Mushin, Zanshin, Ting Jing, whatever) to each of these 9 points. And so you get 9 esoteric terms all bundled together in a fairly comprehensible system, with players naturally focusing on one or another as an expression of their character.

Because you're so hip to this stuff, you could easily layer on a second layer of bonuses: "Ok, Pete. Emptiness + Force makes Wu-Wei. This is your highest second-order attribute, so you get x and y and z, but have a penalty to a."

Crunchy goodness, depth from simplicity - surely your work is now over! :)


-Matt

I thought maybe I should give a little more background info on both the game system and the game world just to give an impression of where I'm coming from.

For starters, the world info.

The world is a pseudo-historical fantasy world which is as yet unnamed. The actual name of the campaign world is (so far) "Guarding the Boddhi Tree", in reference to the tree which the Buddha sat under when he finally gained enlightenment. The world revolves around a pan-Asian setting that includes elements from all of Asia, including Japan, China, Korea, India, South East Asia, American Indians, and Pacific Islanders (but with specific focus on Japan, China and India). There is also an element which is similar to but not exactly the same as a Western force which through mechanization and industrialization, threatens the way of the lives of these pan-asian cultures.

The technology level is roughly equivalent to our own 1850's-1900's with a little retro-tech thrown in (technology a little more advanced for its time) as well as some paranormal abilities that border on the supernatural (but in a still believable fashion....no wire-fu here). The central theme as discussed is the threatening of a way of life, though not necessarily through conflict. The mere introduction of technology will cause chaos in society's way of life, and the introduction of new ideas will also cause social upheaval (for example, the idea of democracy threatening a caste system).

I've decided that there are Paths, Schools, Clans, Orders, Castes and Societies which the character belongs to (if he is of pan-Asian origin). These different orders shape what abilities the character posses, and also define what areas of knowledge he is likely to know. The system uses a Lifepath system in order to generate this data. The Lifepath determines the socio-economic clas (Caste, Clan and Wealth), and from this, what School, Path, Order or Society the character can belong to. Age is determined by the player...the older the character is, the more skills he has acquired, but his physical stats will go down. A Point Pool system is used to purchase the attributes as well as the course on the Lifepath he wishes to take. The character is further defined by certain Perks and Flaws which help flesh out the character.

Attributes are broken into Sub-attributes, and Derived Attributes. They are:
Primary: Sub-attributes


• Neuromuscular: Force and Speed
• Kinesthetic: Coordination and Agility
• Size: Mass and Height
• Constitution: Fitness and Health
• Endurance: Aerobic and Anaerobic
• Intelligence: Memory and Analysis
• Intuition: Awareness and Creativity
• Charisma: Presence and Beauty
• Willpower: Focus and Discipline



Psyche Traits


• Ego- How self-centered or humble a character is
• Emotion- How readily the character wears his emotions on his sleeves
• Empathy- How well character can relate to another, as well as sensitivity
• Trust- How trusting a character is
• Adaptability- How open-minded or inflexible a character is.



Derived


• Strength = Formula still being worked on
• Reaction = (Speed + Awareness + Creativity + Discipline) / 4



Destiny Pools (these modify your Karmic Threshold which I'll get to in a bit)


• Focus-Concentration
• Focus-Awareness
• Drive-Passion
• Drive-Discipline



Perks and Flaws- Various traits which can help or hinder a character and fleshes them out more fully
Principles- Player defined set of convictions and beliefs which guide his behavior and thinking (for example, the tenets of Buddhism, Bushido, Wu Shih, Shamanist, etc). These help determine when Drive-Passion comes into play, and also help determine when a character can suffer mental trauma.
Attachments- These are the things that matter to the character. They can be things, people, ideology, religion. They help determine when the Drive-Passion can be applied. Depending on the situation, these traits can also help determine if a character suffers mental trauma.

Task Resolution in a Nutshell
There are 4 elements that are primary to resolving a task:
Control Rating = Controlling Attributes + Skill Experience (I'm currently thinking of a different mechanic, but it requires multiplication)
Karma = Control Rating + Destiny Pool
Karmic Threshold = Target Difficulty + Random Factor

If Karma >= Threshold, then the task succeeds

The Destiny Pool is a way of modifying a result depending on how much intensity, concentration, resolve and awareness a character puts forth into the task. Using the Destiny Pool however comes with some drawbacks. Using Focus-Concentration causes some mental fatigue as well as lowering one's defenses (which are outside of the thing the character is actually Focusing on). Drive-Passion also lowers one's defensive rating including the focal target itself (however, it delivers two points to the Karmic Threshold instead of just one per point as Concentration does), and it too is slightly tiring. Drive-Discipline is mentally draining but it can only be used to offset Internal Modifers (though it does not suffer from lowered defenses). Focus-Awareness is the most powerful of the bunch because it has no drawbacks. However, one must "enter" this state, and there's no guarantee you'll be in it.

Target Difficulty is based off of Situational Modifiers and Internal Modifiers. Internal Modifiers are things intrinsic to the character (as opposed to the Target Difficulty which is based off the situational context of the actual task itself). For example, a wounded character would not be at 100% efficiency. Situational Modifiers are things external to the character, for example, being hasty (taking less time to do something) will make it harder to perform a task.

The Random Factor is determined by rolling 3d6, of which one should be colored differently as this is the Control Die, and the others are the Total Dice. The mathematical formula is:
|Die1 - Die2| - 1 unless Die 1 = Die 2
if Die = Die2 then result is
Die Roll - 1.

For example:
{5,3} = (5-3) -1 = 1
{2,6} = (6-2) -1 = 3
{1,4} = (4-1) -1 = 2
{6,5} = (6-5) -1 = 0
{4,4} = 4 -1 = 3
{2,2} = 2 -1 = 1

The Control Die tells you whether the result is positive or negative. 1-3, it's negative, 4-6, it's positive. This Die Mechanic creates a very strong centering around 0, and is a very steep bell curve (unlike a traditional 2d6 -7 system which whill also generate a -5 to + 5 result).


I'm still working on the actual Martial Arts system. So far I think I want the following elements to describe how it works:

Form- The basis of a technique
Effect- What the technique actually does
Implementation- What body parts are required or weapon needed?
Theory- Going with a Yin/Yang motif (soft/hard, internal/external)

Form can be broken down into:


• Strike- To hit an object, usually causing damage. Note that a block is really a different form of a strike (it has a different Purpose, but the same Principle)
• Control- Manipulating an opponents body, either through force, pain, or immobilization. Can be joint locks, throws, takedowns, pins, guards, etc
• Maneuver- Instead of controlling your Opponent's body, this controls your body or distancing, either to gain a better position, as avoidance, or as an escape
• Intercept- Used prior to (or possibly in conjunction with Control), this captures a part of the opponent's body, possibly including his mind (his spirit or will). Includes traps, holds, grabs



Effects


• Damage- Does damage to a target through some means. Damage type can vary according to implementation or location (for example a neck strike could be lethal damage while a pressure point would be momentary)
• Neutralize- To take away the offensive capability of one or more limbs, including weapons, either permanently (joint break for example) or temporarily (a joint lock, a block or a disarm for example)
• Immobilize- To stop an opponent from moving
• Guiding- To direct an opponent to where you want him to go (to the ground perhaps)
• Positioning- The maneuver grants the most advantageous position for attack or defense (depending on what the character desires).



This is all I've come up with so far, but I've got a few ideas up my sleeve. I've been thinking about Ars Magica and how it had dynamic magic (through Techniques and Forms) or prelearned spells. In some ways, this is what I want to do with my martial arts. I want some predefined techniques, but I also want a spontaneous and dynamic ability.

I'm surprised at the system you've got.

This feels like a rock-solid Universal Sim engine to me. I'm pretty surprised - I thought the game was All About Martial Funkiness.

Frex:
I'm a good actor exactly because I have an intuitive understanding of ki. I can project a lot of energy, which hooks the audience. My personal magnetism, my acting chops, and my punch-through-brickness are all aspects of my huge ki (regardless of how I conceptualize it).
An approach like this would do two things: tie everything together, pointing back at the game's focus, and also show how all those cool wacked-out Eastern terms are really principles that we use every day, because they move the universe.

Instead, the system given has my acting springing from Ego and Charisma and Intuition. A lot more generic.
It's got a real GURPS-ish feel to me: a strong cover-all-the-bases system, with added-on bits to match the genre.

It all goes back to System Does Matter, for me.

Whaddya think?

-Matt

It's funny how you mention that the names feel a bit generic. I too worried about that.

In fact, I was thinking of renaming some of the traits to give it a more esoteric and eastern feel. But I held back because I do want the system to have a Universal basis. But the game engine I'm creating has "plug-ins" which essentially are new or replacement traits to cover genre-specific elements. Every setting will have its own LifePath system, so the system is not truly universal, because you must have a game background in order to create characters. But every settings should work within a universally defined set of minimal attributes to work with (the one's I've listed) and can add more.

For example, I'm still trying to figure out how to work out Ki. I'm also trying to figure out how to work out Musubi (harmony) or what the Chinese call Ting Jing (listening energy...sensitivity). I suppose I could call them by their asian names to evoke the flavor. The Focus-Awareness trait is really Mushin in disguise.

Cemendur and you (Garbanzo) gave me some ideas about basing things off of axes. The I Ching (and the Taiji DU symbol) is represented by 8 trigrams, and these 8 trigrams can be combined together to create 64 patterns (an 8x8 matrix) that really stems from the combinations of Yin and Yang energy.

I'm trying to figure out how to apply this to martial arts moves with little success though. I do think that the moves in martial arts should be covered by:

Form- What it looks like
Function- How the move is implemented
Effect- What the move does in game terms
Technique- Using martial "powers" (Ki, Musubi, Ting Jing, Ma-ai, etc)
Theory- the ebb and flow of yin and yang (for example, hard vs. soft styles, internal vs. external, nei juang vs. wei juang, irimi vs. tenkan, etc)

Hmm.

Form, Function, Effect, Technique, Theory.
That's a hefty list.

As I see it, the structure of the mechanics has to set up the theory, implementation, and effect. The system has to present a rock-solid backdrop that makes all this crystal clear, and also fun.
Technique and Form are on the player's shoulders, the first is set up by the system, as the choices available. The second is pure color (which comes as second nature to someone who's totally bought in to the system).

You're asking for a lot to happen. I'm not sure a generic rules set can pull it off. But that's just me. The basic system sounds like something you're well invested in, so I'll leave off.

-Matt