I've followed the Forge preparations for GenCon, and came to consider an interesting thought: during 23.-25. of July we have in Finland the biggest northern roleplaying convention, Ropecon. I don't know how it compares to American cons, but there'll likely be over three thousand people coming from all over Finland. John Kovalic, Erick Wujcik and Emma Wieslander (of Mellan Himmel och Hav fame, a swedish larpsmith), too.

Now, Finnish cons traditionally are hobby oriented, with mostly lectures and play. There is however room for merchants as well, and I was thinking of becoming one: there's a tradition among Finnish activists of getting in free instead of paying (a matter of pride), through GMing, selling tickets, keeping lectures or other more imaginative means. I was going to organize a larp, but came to think that I could as well try something I haven't done ever: get a spread of games from my friends in the Forge and sell those.

The roleplaying scene in Finland is relatively traditional sim, so I'd say that there is a clear place for more innovative designs. I've written about the possibilities, but being that the retailer system is a little one-sided, games do not spread too fast. Ropecon would thus be a great place to build up awareness.

I was thinking of getting some of the best games of Forge and hawking them with a couple of friends. Sellers do not get in free, but GMs do, so we'd all run sessions of the games in question, too (which we'd be doing probably anyway). This'd be for a modest profit (to cover the bother and mixed expenses), so I'd try to garner the games with some kind of discount off the cover price. Essentially similar to Luke's Forge East, except we don't have a con circuit here in Finland, so it's not viable to pay the games afterwards (I'll be selling any leftovers though other channels, though). This'd not be any significant profit for either me or the publisher, but at least it's a step ahead in building awareness of our work.

I'll be contacting personally some of the people who's games I'd especially like to have. I'm talking maybe some half a dozen copies per game, with a suitable discount (considering postage, of course). If someone is interested, go ahead and PM me. Any questions can of course be asked here, and if anybody has any pointers on what to consider with this kind of undertaking, I'll be interested to hear. I'm not exactly the veteran in this kind of thing, especially as no-one has done it in Finland before.

Well, I've put out my little birds to gather (hopefully) interested publishers. I'm trying to dicker with each furiously to get some discounts from the prices (I'm a retailer, after all, am I not?). If you have not been contacted and have a great game, it's probably because I forgot about you. No disrespect intented, and you have to just remind me of your existence.

Now, what I'll have to figure out next is the cheapest way to get the games to Finland. I'll be operating as a company, so there'll be customs in addition to postage. If it wasn't clear from my enquiry, I think that the postage is very much my problem. After all, if you don't have to pay it, you can give me a bigger discount ;)

This being the case, does anybody have experience with shipping from USA to Finland (yes, as of yet all games I've asked are american)? The convention is in ten weeks, so the slowest land mail is probably not an option, or is it? More pertinently, would gathering all the games I'm ordering to one place and mailing them in one big package lower the cost as compared to getting individual parcels from each publisher? Would someone take the responsibility of intercepting the packages, repackaging and sending them off? We're talking about a dozen games from each publisher.

After getting the mailing and paying hassles away from underfoot I'd like to get any sales material the publishers might have for their games. I'll be writing some Finnish bullet lists, flyers and other stuff, and any already existing text and picture material you have will be appreciated and will lessen the work.

Hey Eero, you can find US international postage rates here although you'll have to calculate the weight in pounds (God bless the imperial system :-)

Looks like 5 pounds (2 1/4 kg) will run about $23 airmail. Surface is only a couple of dollars cheaper and takes delivery from days to weeks.

10 pounds will run about $37 although now surface rates are more significantly cheaper.

20 pounds (9kg) will run about $66 with surface (4-6 weeks) being half that.

For reference 1 Universalis book (86 pages half size) weighs about 5 ounces (141 grams). A dozen puts it about 3.75 pounds

Oh, the agony of fiddling with the post office! And in pounds, no less.

It seems that there is a significant lessening in price with bigger packages. As I'm currently hoping to get well over fifty game books, I'll be paying quite generously if each publisher ships independently.

We'll wait for a couple of days now, so that all the people I've offered this deal to get a chance to answer. When I know how many books we're talking about we can calculate how much different shipping options would cost, and decide on one.

In the meantime, I'd value it if the people from whom I'm going to buy books would weight them and calculate how much my order from them will weight.

If all the games together will weight some 30 pounds (a rough estimate, no idea really) and I get six publishers with under 5 pounds each, I'll be paying either about 120$ for individual shipment, or 180$ for air mailing them all together, or 40$ for surface shipment. The bulk airmail seems to be out anyway, so it's a question of individual air mail against bulk surface mail.

The cons of the surface mail are time and the bother and expence of packaging the games in america. The post office seems to promise surface mail in 4-6 weeks, does anyone have experience on if this is accurate? The convention is in nine weeks, and if we get the games collected and sent in two, there's a week of marginal even. [ominous trumpets and drums]Can post office be trusted?[/ominous trumpets and drums]

In any case there's the expence of mailing the games inside USA, and the bother of someone packaging them. Any volunteers? If there's not, we'll obviously go with air mail. I'm of course paying the in-country postage in this scheme, but there's not much I can offer to anyone who'd care to repackage the games for me. I can promise their game the best advertising space in the booth, though :)

Eero -

A number of Forge publishers will be getting together at DexCon on the 14th of July; that might be an opportunity for us to put together an airmail package for you that would combine a number of different games.

The list of games that are expected to be at DexCon according to this thread included:

Masters and Minions (Horde Book 1)
Burning Wheel
Bad Muthas
Bulldogs!
Kill Puppies for Satan
Tools of Magick

I'm very excited about gaining international exposure for our work! Thanks for creating this opportunity.

Tav_Behemoth wrote:
A number of Forge publishers will be getting together at DexCon on the 14th of July; that might be an opportunity for us to put together an airmail package for you that would combine a number of different games.

Airmail parcel post would require 4-10 business days, which might be cutting it a little close, but global express mail would definitely be there in time (3-5 days). Depending on how many games you were combining, it might still be cost-effective to use these faster shipping options.

Eero is talking about a fairly large (and heavy) package.

It's too bad, because I could easily get to Dexcon to meet up with people one day (I can't do the whole convention, because life took a strange turn around here a few weeks back, but for something like this I could pop up--indeed, if Vincent and Luke are going to be there, I'd love to come for lunch one day if they've got time). But it's too late.

Anyway, it was a good idea.

--M. J. Young

Eero Tuovinen wrote: After getting the mailing and paying hassles away from underfoot I'd like to get any sales material the publishers might have for their games. I'll be writing some Finnish bullet lists, flyers and other stuff, and any already existing text and picture material you have will be appreciated and will lessen the work.

M.J. Young has voiced a willingness to handle gathering the games in the US! Assuming that we get the the system cleared up, I'll be doleing out payments for the books soon. The books will be sent to mr. Young, who will repack them and ship them out with his pile of Multiverser. I'm hoping we can move with alacrity, as land mail will take it's time.

For reference, here's the games and the people who have thus far answered my requests for games:
Ron Edwards / Sorcerer and Elfs
Luke Crane / Burning Wheel
Ralph Mazza / Universalis
M.J. Young / Multiverser
If you are not on the list, it's because you haven't answered my request (or I've failed to send it). If you are, I will contact you personally to find out what we are exactly owing for the books, to set up payment method (probably credit card through Paypal or some such) and to give the address for shipping. This will happen when I get the address myself. As far as I'm concerned, we can take additional games from the people I've asked them from as long as they can make it to the shipment, which I hope will leave US this week or at the start of the next one at the latest. So if you're interested, now's the time.

Merten wrote:
One option you might want to consider is to contact the already existing re-sellers (aka. Fantasiapelit) and see if you could set up a deal with them. I've seen at least one of the games around Forge (Sorcerer) being in the shelves and they'd be able to order at least some of the games through normal distribution channels. I don't know how they'll feel about re-selling products ordered and bought through them, though - at least it would be worth to ask, since that way you could avoid the hassle with postages and especially with the customs.

Personally, I'd think you have a fairly good change of selling the stuff if you manage to market the games to the local rpg-theory enthusiastics.

Eero Tuovinen wrote: That's the strategy, all right. I'll also borrow heavily from Forge marketing know-how to the extent possible with limited man-power, setting up demostration games and such to generate awareness. Wanna come pimp books in Ropecon, by the way?

Merten wrote:
Running demonstration games in convention is hell (well, not running them, but getting good enough players is, nowadays), but I'm currently pondering about running Dead Inside this year. It's not in the list and not exactly from Forge, but at least it's indie.

Can I take the easy way out and mention the games and your stand on certain mailing lists where some of the local theory folks subscribe? To really pimp the games, I'd have to read them, which I can only do after Ropecon, when I've bought them.

One good way to gain recognition would be to present a lecture (or panel discussion) about the indie game design, theory or the games themselves. It's also lot easier to describe the games to auditorium full of people than to talk each one of them individually.

Hey Eero, couple of more points.

1) I know that Universalis and Burning Wheel are both available through Key 20 Direct at www.key20direct.com. Key 20 deals with Ulises Spiele and I believe Esvedium also. Something to keep in mind if you run into any retailers at RopeCon. Both of those games are, in fact, now available through usual distribution channels.

2) Both Uni and BW also have some sell sheets available in pdf format which you might find useful as fliers. They're in English, of course, but then so are the games, but I'd be happy to provide it to you in an editable format if you think adding some Finnish text to them would be helpful. Not sure what might be available for Sorcerer or Multiverser in that regard.

Eero Tuovinen wrote: Hey, running Dead Inside is a good show. There's one game that should cater to Finnish tastes of modern horror.

Sure, I'm intending to inform people about the opportunity to buy rare indie games in Ropecon myself when we get the show rolling (read: when we know what we're selling). The SHPR news group and a couple of local roleplaying clubs have to be notified, at least.

I've been thinking the same, actually; if there's still room for a lecture, I'm going to keep one. That's one of the more efficient ways of introducing games to people in Ropecon, IMO. That, a good looking booth and a moderate amount of demonstration games are in the cards.

Valamir wrote:
1) I know that Universalis and Burning Wheel are both available through Key 20 Direct at www.key20direct.com. Key 20 deals with Ulises Spiele and I believe Esvedium also. Something to keep in mind if you run into any retailers at RopeCon. Both of those games are, in fact, now available through usual distribution channels.

2) Both Uni and BW also have some sell sheets available in pdf format which you might find useful as fliers. They're in English, of course, but then so are the games, but I'd be happy to provide it to you in an editable format if you think adding some Finnish text to them would be helpful. Not sure what might be available for Sorcerer or Multiverser in that regard.

Merten wrote:
There most probably is; I don't think the lecture program is even halfway done yet (it usually gets into shape few weeks before the convention, with the people responsible for the lectures begging for more of them). Reserving your place well before that gives a good change of getting a good program slot (afternoons, I think).

Buying beer to the male member of the program group also helps, but don't quote me on that one.

OK, everyone I've dealt with has given his payment information and (hopefully) shipped the games I've ordered. Heartfelt thanks to everybody, and I hope you got the payment. I also hope that we get the final shipment going in time, elsewise I'll be running a mail order shop until the next Ropecon...

Anyway, if all goes well we'll return to this thread after the convention to see how it went.

Crap! Eero, I totally forgot to reply to your query. This last post reminded me. SORRY!

What's the deadline for getting things to you? I wanted to try to get 6 copies of Dust Devils sent your way.

Sorry again for the oversight.

-Matt

Matt Snyder wrote: Crap! Eero, I totally forgot to reply to your query. This last post reminded me. SORRY!

What's the deadline for getting things to you? I wanted to try to get 6 copies of Dust Devils sent your way.

Valamir-Ralph got me to realize that some of the people who sold us games might actually care if the games got moving allright. Mr. Young's retail department did a fabulous job on the matter, getting the games into land mail for a quite cheap price. If 6 weeks is the absolute maximum the mail takes I'll have at least three days to spare before the convention :)

I'll probably report here in a month with a really big stack of books.

Merten wrote:

Eero Tuovinen wrote: Hey, running Dead Inside is a good show. There's one game that should cater to Finnish tastes of modern horror.

There's also a game which requires certain kind of players - the ones who usually sit and listen the lectures through the whole convention. A problem you're bound to run into if you plan to run demo games.

Heya Chad,

That's always been a concern of mine with demo'ing DI: the type of game and tone required for full-enjoyment may not be conducive to open, public demos.

My current thinking is that the pursuit of demos that deliver "full-enjoyment" is a bad idea.

The demo scenario I wrote for last year's GenCon with that objective just wasn't that successful for me. It was a pre-generated Master and several minions, and took about 45 minutes to run. I ran it three times last year, and didn't produce a single sale of the game. My friend Tom ran it twice, and sold a single copy. Gordon Landis ran it once, for a single player, spending nearly a whole hour with her, and ultimately made the sale. By comparison, Ron runs a twenty minute bare-bones Sorcerer demo and always sells one or more copies.

So I've been thinking quite a bit about how I want to redesign my demo scenario, with a goal, in part, of not leaving players so completely satisfied with the experience that they don't hunger for more. I'm thinking less demo scenario will produce more sales.

Paul

Yo, Paul!

Paul Czege wrote: So I've been thinking quite a bit about how I want to redesign my demo scenario, with a goal, in part, of not leaving players so completely satisfied with the experience that they don't hunger for more. I'm thinking less demo scenario will produce more sales.

Paul, I'd be really interested in discussing demo design; unfortunately, this is neither the thread nor the forum--and I'm not at all certain which forum would be correct. (I'm fearful that it might be Actual Play, as I don't cover that one and am stretching my time pretty thin already.)

Maybe this can be picked up in another thread here in Conventions, as a "how to design convention demos" thread? I've had some experience by now, and would be interested in knocking it around with some of yours. (And maybe we can get Luke to share a bit on his methods. He runs demos pretty much straight through conventions and always sells at all of them.)

--M. J. Young

chadu wrote: That's always been a concern of mine with demo'ing DI: the type of game and tone required for full-enjoyment may not be conducive to open, public demos.