When I joined the Forge, I largely wanted to flesh out the RPG designs that I made while I was bored off my ass at Ft. Huachuca. I considered myself a writer, and gaming was a fun passtime, a way to tell stories with a living, breathing, cast.

Since I've joined the forge, however, I've begun to see the opprotunity in professional publishing. It looks like something I could enjoy. I've designed a pen-and-paper RPG and I'd like to see it in a complete form.

So basically, I was wondering what the essentials are to RPG Publication? Where can I find an artist? How should I lay out my website?

Basically, now that I'm done, how do I get my game out there?

There are degrees of publish.

Do you mean get the game out there and played?

Do you mean sold?

Do you mean in Book format or PDF?

Whatever the case I'd suggest taking a look back through the topics in this forum, or search it for: web sites, PDFs, artwork, print on demand, print quotes, print runs, editing, and so on.

-Matt

such an odd question, considering the answers are all over this forum.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/resources/

the resource library is a good place to start.

Dave Sim's Cerebus' Guide to Self-Publishing is invaluable if you're planning on going that route.

However, the best piece of advice that I can give you: There is no one answer. Just do it the way you want to.

-L

Hmmmm, I guess I could do it that way. I already have a game plan for publishing my book and I guess since there's no right or wrong way to do it, I'll just go ahead and move with what I'm doing.

Well, I'm curious to here what you've planned (if you don't mind sharing). <g>

Hello,

WildKarde, I do recommend considering that, although there's no single way to "publish right," there definitely exist ways to publish which are very unlikely to work out well. Some of these bad ways are bad for anyone - they just don't fly at all. Other ones are only "bad" if they don't suit your personal goals.

So the first questions I'd need to ask, in order to help you, are these:

Where do you want to see your game available? Internet, stores, both, other?

What does it look like, and what is the medium? PDF, website interaction, book, series of pamphlets, other?

How would you most prefer to be paid? Check from a distributor, direct from customer, consignment from retailer, other?

Armed with your answers (and there are no wrong answers here; this is a matter of personal goals and preference), I think you'll be astounded at what this forum can offer.

Specificity is good, though. "Oh, whatever, any of them, I guess," isn't going to help much. If you're not sure what the options are about, in each case, just ask.

Best,
Ron

I've had to do a little more research in order to answer your questions intelligently. I've never tried to publish an RPG and I only have the experiences from self-publishing a novel to guide me. After my first self-published book, I decided to turn to professionals (or at least experienced individuals) at every turn.

Your link to RPGHost's print-on-demand service was very helpful...if only for the fact that it was far less expensive than Authorhouse. My original plan of going with them has been scrapped for a more hands-on approach. Besides, their cost for printing pictures in their books is ridiculous.

I'd like to see my game available on the internet and in stores. As far as retail sales go, I'm thinking of going to AAFES (it's the corporation that's behind the military PX on every American Military Base in the world) because the concentration of roleplayers on military bases is very high. If you train your eye for it, you'll see miniatures, dice, and guidebooks almost everywhere in a barracks. Boardgames get a little boring after playing them every night for a week. The money I saw spent on RPG's within my own company would be enough to cover nearly any print run.

And, if the number of self-glamorizing "I was an airborne-scuba-ranger" memiors is any indication, AAFES is very friendly to self-published authors.

But as far as internet distribution goes, I'm lost. I have my own ideas, but I'm not familiar with those tried-and-true methods you were referring to. When I first came to the Forge, I was hesitant to post my ideas for fear of "reinventing the wheel" and now I'm in the same boat with my publishing methods. As far as getting the book on a store shelf, I already know a retail chain that services a high number of roleplayers.

"Hoooah!"

But when it comes to other, simpler things, I'm pretty out of it. I just saw a PDF for a game called Eclipse that left me with my tongue hanging out. I haven't a clue how to make something that looks like that. I don't even know where to get the software that makes things that look like that.

And payment...

Checks from a distributor would be great, but I'd like to also have the ability to sell directly through a website. Again, no clue on how to do either of these things.

The format of the book will be pretty simple. It'll be...oh yeah I already said it...a book. I was thinking 8.5x11 sized pages...color cover and a color insert so my artist can just show off. With all that extravagance, it still costs far less than what I'd planned to do. With my old plan, each book would've cost roughly $25.00 to make. Thanks to the Forge, I can do it for about $8.70.

But essentially, I'm lost on layout, payment, compensating the nice people who're helping me, and the assorted legalities that are bound to rip a good 'un outta my ass if I ignore them.

So....there we are.

Hi WK,

My apologies for being a wee bit rushed in this post ...

The big point is that it's actually very easy, especially if you follow a good progression from (1) Adequate to (2) Damn Good to (3) Outstanding for each of the following topics. If you make sure to pursue each topic, yet not freak out because you're not at (3) yet for any of them, then you can "ride success" at each step, as you move on to the next steps.

WEBSITE
Here's where "adequate" really is the starting point. Website design, usage, and traffic should always be rated in terms of "better than yesterday," rather than "must be perfect now." And there are lots and lots of resources for you, both generically and specific to independent RPG publishing.

Hosting is probably your first issue, and I recommend asking Clinton R. Nixon about some of the options. Not only does the Forge provide hosting, but he will also give good advice for other options with no hard feelings - a very virtuous and useful trait.

ART
Most folks agree that art is a major issue for RPG design. Did you want to discuss the options for payment, leasing, and so forth? If so, that's worth some thread-hunting and we can pursue it here if you like.

FORMAT/FILE
Have you read Clinton R. Nixon's article about PDF-making at reasonable costs? That might allay some of your fears a bit. I also suggest that this step should come a little later in the process than many people think ... all too often, I see people obsessing over margins and how to shade inset-boxes when they really ought to be playtesting the game itself.

Other people to talk to about this issue include Matt Snyder and Paul Czege.

LAYOUT/LOOK
Fortunately, some folks here at the Forge offer great layout services for nominal fees, and there are even some who'll do it for nothin' if it strikes them as fun. The downside is that everyone is time-constrained and even if they did a great job for someone last year, might not be able to help this year.

But make your needs known, and you might be surprised. Another good thing for this issue is that at the moment, it's not the King Hell Final Design you're looking for - just a good one that will serve the needs of whatever particular step you're at.

Again - although this is a very important feature of publishing, it's also the most fun and reasonable if you rely on some reciprocity and some networking via this site and others.

PRINTING
I suggest that the very best deal currently available is through Express Media, which offers an excellent POD service for reasonable prices. Other people have had good experiences with a variety of other options, and it looks as if you're already doing all the necessary research to learn about them.

Since it's all a new technology and a new set of options, my real advice is merely to pick & choose as you see fit, with an eye on

When the time comes, though, I suggest learning about making good decisions about print run size - good people to consult with about that include Jake Norwood and Ralph Mazza.

FULFILMENT/DISTRIBUTION
Since you're talking about website and store sales, you'll need to consider some interesting issues.

1. The possibility of working with a fulfilment house, who will warehouse your books and ship them to places, whether those places are stores, distributors, or private individuals. There are plenty of upsides and downsides to this tactic, but it seems to be nearly-required for store-level distribution.

(Note that a fulfilment house is not necessarily the same as a distributor; the latter term is very specific.)

2. Website traffic and sales - your own, or someone else's? This is another one of those "changing technologies, changing options" decisions. Some of us have done very well to restrict website sales to our own sites, and merely rely on public site interaction to bring people to those sites. Others have tried more of a "join the on-line store" approach, with mixed results.

3. I strongly suggest considering attending the GAMA Trade Show in March of whatever year your books become available to distributors, and to use that as a major promotional push to generate sales for your first print run.

Anyway, I hope some of these points are reassuring rather than daunting. Please feel free to tag any of them for further discussion.

Best,
Ron

Wow...if that was rushed, I wonder what an "involved" post looks like.

Hmmm, As far as art goes, I'm completely in the dark with what to pay and how to pay. If I were hiring a writer, I'd be fine, my Writers Market tells me what to pay and how. I don't want to scare an artist off (and I've really only got one interested party) by making insultingly low, or unrealistically high offers. I also don't want to unwittingly sell them my firstborn in the process.

Telling me about the GAMA trade show allows me to set release dates. I didn't know the market well enough to know when a good time to release my game might be. Actually, I didn't know the market well enough to know to ask that question.

Is there a post or an article where Mr. Nixon discusses having the Forge host a site? I hate asking questions that have been answered elsewhere already so if I can look it up instead of buggin' him, that'd be cool.

Oh, is this the Express Media you were talking about? I can't seem to find their POD services.

No, I believe the site you're looking for is www.expressmedia.com. Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

WyldKarde wrote: Wow...if that was rushed, I wonder what an "involved" post looks like.

Hmmm, As far as art goes, I'm completely in the dark with what to pay and how to pay. If I were hiring a writer, I'd be fine, my Writers Market tells me what to pay and how. I don't want to scare an artist off (and I've really only got one interested party) by making insultingly low, or unrealistically high offers. I also don't want to unwittingly sell them my firstborn in the process.

Telling me about the GAMA trade show allows me to set release dates. I didn't know the market well enough to know when a good time to release my game might be. Actually, I didn't know the market well enough to know to ask that question.

If you REALLY want to get into distribution you'd need to either do a tremendous amount of homework (which would include visits to GAMA) or, (what I think is the better option) hook up with a group like Key 20 Direct, or Impressions, or Tundra to represent you, and let them do the GAMA distributor interface stuff for you.

Well distribution is something that'll come later on in the process. Perhaps in a product that deems such measures practical, or perhaps in this product if it should generate enough interest later on down the line.

Art however, is somewhat less "optional" in my opinion. While I don't think I need the best in the industry for my first book, I think that creating an attractive product is part of creating a good one. Even without a lot of artwork, a cover illustration is definately a neccesity. It would be nice to toss in a few black and white sketches here and there throughout the book, but it's not key. If the cover and the first few pages don't get 'em...a picture referencing some obscure passage in the text probably won't do the trick either.

Oh yeah, I don't know if I made any reference to the game I'm talking about here, so I'll make a link to it now.

I agree, art is integral to producing a nice, for-sale rpg. However, it's not something you have to worry about until 3-6 months before your press date. Until that time, it's playtest, revise, edit, playtest, revise, edit, ad nauseum.

Your friends should live in terror of your game! They are your guinea pigs. No free time is safe!

good luck,
-L

Wow...this is embarassing but I'll go ahead and toss it out there instead of getting it horribly, horribly wrong and not finding out until after I've printed a bunch of books.

Okay, here goes...

How do you pull all this info together?

What I mean is, how does one organize the information in their game?How do you put this info down in a simple, readable format? I've never had to write a document that was so information heavy. Unlike a novel where I get to gloss over what's not important in the moment and go back to it later in the text, I have to get all my important information that falls under certain headings and make sure it's all there. I've also got to make sure that the information given makes sense in the order it's given. Is character development more important than combat?

So basiacally, if anyone wants to stoop to answer this fairly basic question? What's the usual way to structure and categorize your game mechanic?

Hi Wylde,

It seems scarey at first -- and it is terrifying -- but, it is a surmountable fear. You can beat this!

When I wrote BW, I had a HUGE outline on the wall. One page (digest sized) for every chapter running up and down the wall next to my computer. I added and modified the outline as the game developed.

But during the process I had some very helpful and critical friends reading the manuscript. They pounded on my rather large head trying to explain to me when they couldn't understand concepts in the game. I owe them a great debt.

Also, if I were you, I'd go and look through a few RPGs which you found easy to learn and deconstruct their structure. How did they teach you the game? Warhammer Fantasy Battles 6e (while not an rpg), is incredibly good at stepping a newbie through the process.

So to review: Outline of the game, critical friends and favorite rpgs. You should be all set.

-L

Yeah, I checked out BW. It was very, very tight. I guess I'll just go with what makes the most sense to me.

Intro
Getting Started
Playing the Game
Resources: Beastiary, Game Lore, Campaigns, Weapons and Items lists, Skill lists...

Everything seems to fall under those broad strokes. I debated about putting skill lists at the back of the book though. I'm kinda juggling that one back and forth. For my shorter game, it's not really an issue, but my Huge Fantasy Game needs this kind of streamlining.

Check out the thread Shooting the Sacred Cows. About 3/4 of the way down the first page, Chris Lehrich goes over a great process for organizing your work.

Thanks for the link. That's really helping me clean up my game. I hadn't thought of it much, but I was spending way to much time on backstory and such, Getting it all down in a readable manner is the focus at this point and I'll be finsihed with a polished version pretty soon.

Now, finding playtesters in Detroit. That will be my next challenge.

Oh, by the way, GO PISTONS!

Okay...here's another stupid question that everyone seems to already know, but which I can't find anywhere.

PDF seems to be the method of choice for playtesting and even publishing for smaller games. Unfortunately, I haven't a clue how to do it. I've hit the recources and found places that will sell my PDF files for me, but most everyone seems to be keeping this info close to the vest in hopes that I'll pay 'em to do it for me.

Since it seems that everyone already knows how to make a PDF, set up a link on their website and get to downloading, I figured I'd just go ahead and ask here.

For Fastlane I had the guy who did the layout for me (Matt Snyder on here, hi Matt!) convert things into PDF. For Snowball, I just laid it all out in Word and used PDF995, which I think is at http://www.pdf995.com, but if not a websearch should turn it up.

For quick and dirty playtest PDFs, Open Office is handy. I wouldn't use it for a production release, personally.

There's a few people round here who can give you actual production layout help or freelance services. I'd 2nd Matt Snyder as a man with a good eye for design.

Or if you have artistic talent you could do it yourself. There's threads in this forum on products you'll need to make a PDF.

-Matt

Artistic Talent...wow, that'd be nice.

But yeah, I was really just looking to playtest the game. My artistic talent is great as long as I don't have to draw anything.

Next, setting up some sort of web presence. Need to get me one of them links like everyones got in their signature.

This one might not be too stupid. It seems to be a valid critique of many first drafts that I've seen reviewed.

When writing for the forge, it's generally assumed that everyone knows how to play RPG's and doesn't really need a refresher course. However, when introducing a finished product to the public, a little introductory segment is expected.

So I guess my question is...do I put a "what is roleplaying" segment in the game, or do I just write the instructions as if I'm explaining candyland? I was thinking about just a balance between the two, clearly stating what the game expects from them, then stating how to go about playing it. Not overly technical, but not too simple...which might result in rules being longer than they need to be.

Hmmm, maybe I answered my own question.

When writing for the forge, it's generally assumed that everyone knows how to play RPG's and doesn't really need a refresher course. However, when introducing a finished product to the public, a little introductory segment is expected.

After having seen your own project...yes. Also, I need the more basic run-of-the-mill advice like getting a website and such that it seems everyone already has.

I made this thread so I could ask stupid questions without bothering too many people.

Okay...stupid question time again:

How much of the completed game should go into the playtest?

All of it. You have to know exactly how the whole thing works. Every last piece. And you have to know how it all fits together. So all of it.

I know what you're probably thinking, cos I've thought it too. But including the full thing as a playtest won't hurt sales. If anything, it'll boost them. Your final version will be kink-free and probably alot prettier than the play-test, which only needs the rules.

-Ben

WyldKarde wrote: How much of the completed game should go into the playtest?

Hmmm, I guess it's a later level playtest as I've had a group here working it and I know that it works. As far as the rules go, I don't mind putting them all out. I guess I don't need every monster and item however. Besides, the way the game looks now, it probably plays better with the GM making up his own monsters and the players trying to figure out how to react to them. As far as the rules go though, I wouldn't give a hobbled version for the playtest. But, as I think was stated elsewhere, the "What is a Role-Playing Game essay" is probably unneccesary for people who already know the answer to that.

Pfffft...lord I don't want to write that. I wrote something similar for my MMORPG for players who were familiar with MMORPG's, but not familiar with RPG's. It was huge.

I'm tempted to lure one of my fellow forgers, someone who writes articles on RPG's into doing it for me. Well, that'll probably never work, but I can probably hit someone up for pointers.

I have been reading through this topic, and had a few thoughts for you. I am currently in the final design process of my own system and heading for the publishing route soon, so I have been through a lot of this. If you are going to hand out your system via PDF, make sure you have it all copyrighted and the like. We are nearing the ending of our testing phase for Lore: Uprising, and we have done it bit by bit under controlled circumstances. Often, myself another one of the designers, would sit back and watch others play. This gave us the advantage of being present when bugs were found rather than depending on someone else to remember they found a bug and to contact us.
As far as printing goes, we have done extensive research on different methods of printing. -The Print by Demand is definately a good option, and a much lower initial investment on your part. The only true problem with this method is a lower quality of print.
Also I can not stress enough the importance of art! It is a pivotol part of your book. Many people will do a pick up and flip through new games. Good art may the thing that catches thier eye long enough to actually consider buying the product.
Financial, one option you may want to consider is Venture Capitol. This is the route we have taken for our initial printing cost and have met with reasonable success.
I hope some if this helped at least a little. It has been a challenge taking our game to where it is at now - but well worth it. I hope you have as much fun as we have had along this journey. :)

I suggest you do it in .pdf format as a start. Get a first draft up on the web and get some exposure as an author. Let some people play around with your system so you can get quality feedback and refine your product. After that, leverage your existing fanbase to launch and e-book. E-books are low cost and low maintenance and have very little negative repercussions for failure. If you're getting positive response from the above, then come back here and start looking to launch your work in print.

Good luck,

Juice