Topic: questions, armor penalties, and mass weapons
Started by: Poleaxe
Started on: 6/7/2004
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 6/7/2004 at 4:05pm, Poleaxe wrote:
questions, armor penalties, and mass weapons
questions, armor penalties, and mass weapons
First, on the footman's pick: Where is the rule for picks getting stuck? I see the reference in the damage chart, but can't find the rule in the book anywhere.
Second, I’m assuming the defensive manuevers Block Open and Strike, Expulsion, and Counter, if succesfully performed, would eliminate or at least range penalties by 1. For example, using a dopplehander (very long range) to vs. a pike of extreme range, once successful, the sword wielder would not suffer the –1cp penalty for the range difference between the two weapons. I’m reading into it, but is that reasonable? Do other people use them that way?
Third, I spent some time this weekend with one friend(haven’t had the time to put a group together and play…) testing out lower armor penalties, and… they SUCK! It makes it almost impossible for a ligher armored character, even using a mass weapon, to hurt someone in plate. I think I’ll keep the penalties, except I’ll lower full plate to –2, not –3. But full visored helms (closed) NEED to be –2.
We used two starting characters:
knight w/a greatsword, full plate, full helm
I used priorities, A attrib, B social class, c prof.
For this character, I cheated a little, allowing him to exchange one attribute point for 1 proficieny. So I gave him starting proficiencies of 6+1=7. In actual play as Seneschal, I might allow this, but only one point!
I believe his stats were st6, ag7, to5, ht4, en5, wit 6. wp 6, per 4, I don’t remember the rest, mostly 4’s.
greatsword prof of 7.
fighting. a lighter armored charater, leather on limbs, chain vest, coif and pot helm.
med round shield and hand axe.
priorities: A prof, B attrib
mass and shield prof of 8
st 5, ag7, to5, wit 6, wp 5, per 4, not sure about the rest, 4’s and 3’s.
In any case, I first tried giving the knight a –3cp penalty in total (2 for armor and 1 for helm). I suppose I cheated for the axeman, giving no penalties for armor or helm (I don’t believe in a –1cp for pot helms and coifs, unless it has a nasal bar. I assumed no nasal bar).
I also cheated by assuming the hand axe stats are “wrong” and the atn should be 6.
for the axeman, I played smart, using bind and strike and block open and strike to some cp advantages.
Usually the axeman got wasted. rarely did he win.
When I started implementing rules like, “okay, full visored helms give a –1 cp, but all the wearer’s DTN’s are at –1 (seemed logical). I later added, “opponents of the full helm wearer gain a +1 to DTN for all kinds of dodges. Things got progressively better for the axeman, but he still usually got wasted.
I also thought my penaltis were getting too complicated. The extra CP penalty for helms seems a worthwhile simplification.
I didn’t really try laijutsu for the axeman, which maybe I should considering the knight’s lowered Per by the helm. The thing is, I REALLY hate the laijutsu rules cause they seem way too complicated. I prefer to see something like a laijutsu figured attribute (I know, I know, not another one…), an average of reflex and perception. The process would involve paying an activation cost of one or 2 dice. Then rolling laijutsu vs. the other guy’s laijutsu as TN. Only the buyer can add 1die to this roll by paying 1 extra CP. The buyer can do this for every 10 CP in his normal maximum CP (for these guys that would be 1 only). Each success would give you an attribute of 1 to either agility or wit. After totalling successes, the highest new reflex wins. In normal red/red situations, my friend and I just assumed that highest reflex wins, ties are simultaneous. Is this too complicated?
Also, my friend wanted more choices with mass weapons, so I came up with the following revisions:
Hand axe med, 1h atn 6, dtn 8 or 9 dam st+1c, +1ap
(armor piercing, damage vs. hard armors)
med, 2h atn6, dtn 8 dam +1
battle axe med, 1h atn 7, dtn 10, dam st+2c, +1ap
med, 2h atn 6, dtn 8 dam +1
danish axe long, 2h atn 7, dtn 7 dam st+3c, +2ap
light pick med, 1h atn 6, dtn 8 or 9 dam st+1p, +2ap may get stuck
med, 2h atn6, dtn 8 dam st+2p, +2ap
foot pick med, 1h atn 7, dtn 10, dam st+2p, +2ap
med, 2h atn 6, dtn 8 dam +1
lite hamr med, 1h atn 7, dtn 10, dam st+1b, +1ap
dam st+1p, +1ap
med, 2h atn 6, dtn 8 dam +1
warhamr med, 1h atn 7, dtn 10 dam st+2b, +1ap
dam st+1p, +2ap
med, 2h atn 6, dtn 8 dam +1
All in all, our impressions:
plate armor is tough to get through! (DUH!)
Half-swording brutal!!
In lighter armor, do NOT get hit by greatswords! (duh)
Sorry for the long rant. Any input would be appreciated.
-Alan
On 6/7/2004 at 4:30pm, Malechi wrote:
RE: questions, armor penalties, and mass weapons
I didn’t really try laijutsu for the axeman, which maybe I should considering the knight’s lowered Per by the helm. The thing is, I REALLY hate the laijutsu rules cause they seem way too complicated. I prefer to see something like a laijutsu figured attribute (I know, I know, not another one…), an average of reflex and perception. The process would involve paying an activation cost of one or 2 dice. Then rolling laijutsu vs. the other guy’s laijutsu as TN. Only the buyer can add 1die to this roll by paying 1 extra CP. The buyer can do this for every 10 CP in his normal maximum CP (for these guys that would be 1 only). Each success would give you an attribute of 1 to either agility or wit. After totalling successes, the highest new reflex wins. In normal red/red situations, my friend and I just assumed that highest reflex wins, ties are simultaneous. Is this too complicated?
If by the Iaijtusu rules you mean "buying intiative" in a red-red situation, the system is really not that bad once you get into it. For Katanapunk we've instigated a new Iai strike maneuvre available to anyone with 6+ levels of proficiency in just about any weapon. This maneuvre when activated (3CP cost) allows the user to draw and strike in the same exchange if his weapon was not already drawn. Also before initiative is rolled it allows a preemptive strike from the scabbard with extra dice pumped in to either lower the opponents REF dice rolled to overcome surprise or raise the TN by 1 for each dice pumped in. In a Red-Red situation you can also pump in extra dice (if you've not drawn your weapon) to lower the chances your opponent will get the first strike in. We have another stat called "Zanshin" which can also "Power-up"(I so hate that phrase...KP is NOT DBZ btw! ;) your Iai strikes in and especially out of initiative combat.
Jason King
Madt3ch Games
On 6/7/2004 at 4:50pm, Ashren Va'Hale wrote:
RE: questions, armor penalties, and mass weapons
I had a character kill an armored opponent with a cut and thrust. The baddie had toughness 8 and full plate on. I beat him with a character with st 5 and a half sworded cut and thrust. On a red red situation I won the contest of reflex and ran him through the groin. The level three wound made it possible to finish him off at my leisure.
I also took out a fully armored knight with TO 6 by using a mace to the weapon arm and then the leg.
I also found that feints work great.
Point though is that fully armored NPC's and PC's can still be brought low and brought down by the unarmored guys.
Things to remember: Use of terrain (high ground makes a difference), feints, toss maneuver, hitting spots that offer the most advantage (take out knees, groin, weapon arms).
On 6/7/2004 at 5:38pm, Poleaxe wrote:
killing armored baddies
yes, I forgot to mention. I had much more success by attacking the arms, makes sense.
When attacking the groin, did you still assume full AV? How much CP did you pump the liajutsu strike? did you spend your whole CP pool?
Feints I find are good, but costly. So costly it didn't seem to pay off.
Assuming equal St of attacker to TO of defender, if you attack a guy in plate, assuming mass weapon damage of st+1, +2 against hard armor...
you need a 5 success MARGIN to deal a level one wound! That's really hard, unless you attack when your opponent is not parrying (red/red). I should say, that's really hard for a starting character.
On a feint, should the defender have to pay an activation cost (1 cp usually, maybe 2), just to keep his defense "current?"
Also, one more thing on the feint. If you've fought your opponent for a few rounds, you have an approximate idea of the size of his dice pool. If he starts a round refreshed, and only throws 6 dice or less into attack while you are wearing plate armor, wouldn't you EXPECT a feint? Any smart opponent trying to protect vs. a feint will throw 9 or more dice in that case on defense. So, even with the feint, it's pretty tough for starting characters to get a decent Margin on someone wearing plate armor. I suppose a poleaxe or two handed danish bearde axe would help...
On 6/7/2004 at 5:51pm, Ashren Va'Hale wrote:
RE: questions, armor penalties, and mass weapons
yes, I forgot to mention. I had much more success by attacking the arms, makes sense.
Yep, aint it great! and the more I practice IRL the more I realize how much easier it is to hit hands and arms.
When attacking the groin, did you still assume full AV? How much CP did you pump the liajutsu strike? did you spend your whole CP pool?
Full AV 6, right into the plate cod piece I suppose, and I think I used 90% of my cp... 11 dice or so.
Feints I find are good, but costly. So costly it didn't seem to pay off.
When done right they kick butt, the secret is to time and choose wisely. I usually declare a "weak probing attack" of 4 dice towards shiled side or armored area. Opponent reacts with a weak defense of 5 or 6 dice (why worry about defending an armored area from such a piddly attack) then I declare a faint to the arms or legs and add the rest of my CP. Usually this results in more than enough extra dice that I am able to get through the armored area. It depends on the situation and the DTN of the opponent. It is risky though but can pay off well in the rights spots.
Assuming equal St of attacker to TO of defender, if you attack a guy in plate, assuming mass weapon damage of st+1, +2 against hard armor...
you need a 5 success MARGIN to deal a level one wound! That's really hard, unless you attack when your opponent is not parrying (red/red). I should say, that's really hard for a starting character.
And thus the lesson for the starting character should be "stay away from the guy in plate"
On a feint, should the defender have to pay an activation cost (1 cp usually, maybe 2), just to keep his defense "current?"
Also, one more thing on the feint. If you've fought your opponent for a few rounds, you have an approximate idea of the size of his dice pool. If he starts a round refreshed, and only throws 6 dice or less into attack while you are wearing plate armor, wouldn't you EXPECT a feint? Any smart opponent trying to protect vs. a feint will throw 9 or more dice in that case on defense. So, even with the feint, it's pretty tough for starting characters to get a decent Margin on someone wearing plate armor. I suppose a poleaxe or two handed danish bearde axe would help...
Yes and no, a few rounds is still only a couple exchanges, or a few seconds, its dang hard to note someones skill level that fast. If they have style analyssis I would let them roll that to see if the cp is known in character. The thing here is you have to assume that in character they know less than the player does OOC, in other words, Role play to compensate for meta game factors.
On 6/9/2004 at 3:53am, James Buchanan wrote:
RE: questions, armor penalties, and mass weapons
Ashren Va'Hale wrote: I had a character kill an armored opponent with a cut and thrust. The baddie had toughness 8 and full plate on. I beat him with a character with st 5 and a half sworded cut and thrust. On a red red situation I won the contest of reflex and ran him through the groin. The level three wound made it possible to finish him off at my leisure.
I am wondering how you did this.
None of the 1-h sword techniques incorporates the half sword maneuever.
Dealing with armour seems where 2-h swords are inherenently superior.
Asides this, I agree with you largely.
-James
On 6/9/2004 at 4:18am, James Buchanan wrote:
Re: killing armored baddies
Poleaxe wrote:
Feints I find are good, but costly. So costly it didn't seem to pay off.
Feints are best used when you can lull the opponent into under commiting to defence.
ie: throwing a 3 or 4 dice, they throw 4 or 5 in response.. perhaps even nothing, if you attack a strong armour location. you feint and drop the rest of your pool, preferably to a weak spot on their armour. Sure, you may only get 8 or 9 dice total, but it will totally apply.
Poleaxe wrote:
On a feint, should the defender have to pay an activation cost (1 cp usually, maybe 2), just to keep his defense "current?"
I see what you are saying, but I don't think it is neccessary. The use of feint would be awfully good then. It's supposed to give you a dice advantage at a bit of a risk. And used correctly it does.
Poleaxe wrote:
Also, one more thing on the feint. If you've fought your opponent for a few rounds, you have an approximate idea of the size of his dice pool. If he starts a round refreshed, and only throws 6 dice or less into attack while you are wearing plate armor, wouldn't you EXPECT a feint? Any smart opponent trying to protect vs. a feint will throw 9 or more dice in that case on defense. So, even with the feint, it's pretty tough for starting characters to get a decent Margin on someone wearing plate armor. I suppose a poleaxe or two handed danish bearde axe would help...
Yes, although he might be trying to make you over-commit to defence on this attack. Something that you can use to your advantage aswell..
Exchange 1:
P1 throws a small dicepool
P2 lets it go
P1 Uses feint, and gets a level 2 wound. - With the shock potential of a mass weapon, this can be enough to severely reduce someone's pool
Exchange 2:
P1 throws a small dicepool
P2 "Ahah! Feint. I shall throw 9 or so dice in defence"
P1 "No feint"
P2 "Doh"
P1 Uses Sim. Block/Strike on second exchange against the lowered dicepool of his opponent.
P2 ":("
Combat is a mind game, strategy is highly important, perhaps moreso than actual numbers.
Poleaxe wrote:
Assuming equal St of attacker to TO of defender, if you attack a guy in plate, assuming mass weapon damage of st+1, +2 against hard armor...
you need a 5 success MARGIN to deal a level one wound! That's really hard, unless you attack when your opponent is not parrying (red/red). I should say, that's really hard for a starting character.
I read it as +1 damage, +2 extra damage against hard armours. Ie: +3 damage, as they are exceptionally good at penetrating heavy armour, but weaker at actually hurting people.
Otherwise the pick and warhammer don't make much sense.
This reduces it a little (only 1 I know, but it is nice.) Furthermore, always remember that you can "buy" +1 damage for a cut or bash with 1 CP. If you think that you're definately going to hit, then this is a good deal. It turns a Pick into a +5 damage weapon against Heavy armour - as good as the best anti-armour sword in the game (half sworded bastard sword/estoc). Suddenly, if you get 2 suxx margin on your roll, then you're wounding, that's not so hard.
As for ways to manipulate this situation. The use of effective defence (using shields to allay a lot of their attack) is rather good, as are feinting, stop shorts and other such maneuvers. (I tend to rule that if a stop short is successful, then the opponent cannot attack back, unless they had thrown red. Ie: the stop short is declared and rolled, then if the opponent was unaffected he may take an action, which may be to attack or something else like full evade with intent to flee)
-James
On 6/9/2004 at 4:16pm, Ashren Va'Hale wrote:
RE: questions, armor penalties, and mass weapons
How did I pull oft his miraculous feat? I followed the most important rule of all gaming.... I used common sense!!!
Read thehalfswording description and come up with any reason you would only be able to use a two handed sword... There is none. IRL I have used Half sword techniques with short swords, messers, cut and thrusts, long swords, spadones, and great swords, no reason not to in game.
James Buchanan wrote:Ashren Va'Hale wrote: I had a character kill an armored opponent with a cut and thrust. The baddie had toughness 8 and full plate on. I beat him with a character with st 5 and a half sworded cut and thrust. On a red red situation I won the contest of reflex and ran him through the groin. The level three wound made it possible to finish him off at my leisure.
I am wondering how you did this.
None of the 1-h sword techniques incorporates the half sword maneuever.
Dealing with armour seems where 2-h swords are inherenently superior.
Asides this, I agree with you largely.
-James
On 6/9/2004 at 10:06pm, Andrew Mure wrote:
RE: questions, armor penalties, and mass weapons
Getting through the armour is the problem here, so here's an alternative solution. Immobilise the tin-head instead of killing him and let the knight sweat away his already penalised cp in his suit of heavy plate, while your lightly armoured character waits far more comfortably on top for a mate to turn up to despatch his victim at leisure.
A good grapple-to-trap hold will cause the victim to lose three quarters of his cp, while even a marginal advantage of 1-3 successes halves it, with the larger cp of the vast majority of lightly (or un) armoured fighters over those of the vast majority of knights(after penalties of course) a good hold should be attainable. Grapples can be enacted both from attack or defense, so initially try defending first so your grappler doesn't get his cp penalised by reach and then attempt to pin to trap in the next round once you have initiative (and your victim has the reach penalties). Then retain and sure up the hold whilst your victim cooks in his armour!
Sooner or later the knight will either pass out though heat exhaustion, surrender or (assuming you have them near by) one of your allies will turn up to deliever the coup-de-grace! Most weapons with a full competent cp behind them will go through toughness and armour if there is no defense. Personally however it is fairly reasonable to assume any suit of armour that can be taken off by the wearer would give no defense against attacks whilst the wearer is immobilised and without any cp dice. Because if a knight can get out of his armour or rise his visor, then equally an opponent given time can raise the same visor or pull off a plate over a vunerable area of a heavily armoured fighter who is held down by comrade and then poke a dagger through...
Of course this is a somewhat drawn out way of dealing with a plate armoured opponent and assumes local numerical advantage, however it does have its precedent in history.