I am in the midst of trying to flesh out Farrenshire for a campaign I've recently started and I'm intrested in advice and opinions. Here are some critical points, but feel free to chime in with any thoughts.

1) Given Farrenshire's small size, maybe 300 miles from the western port of Mouren to the easter border, what would you guess the populations of the two major cities are?
Any help here at all would be very nice.

2) How important in the current days of Weyrth do you think Xanar's bloodline should be? I was considering giving the king and all other high nobility claims (true or not) of tracing their bloodlines back to Xanar himself, since Xanar took a wife and beget a soon in each of the lands. Certainly these lands didn't include the nations that Weyrth knows today, but I still think his children would of made them selves powerful kings in the years after Xanar's "sacrifice."

3) In adition to the nobility I'm also trying to design the Priesthood, which I'm trying to modelling after the RW church of medieval Europe. Does anyone know of any good research resources, on the internet perferably, about structure of the church or the fuedul model in general? My current understanding suggests Farrenshire would have one Archbishop who answers to the Xanarth (Highest Priest, who is located at the Seat) and a handful(only a couple really considering Farrenshires size) of Bishops who in turn answer to the Archbishop. I'm not so certain where Cardinals fit in. :(

4) Anyone have intresting ideas for locations or happenings in Farrenshire which you may have used/witnessed in-game? Heres some of my locations, just a few to start. If people are intrested in how I fleshed out Farrenshire I'll be happy to share more as I get it finsihed. Right now my ideas are scribbled on about 3 sheets of scratch paper and I need to makes some time to orginize my work.

Mouren Castle sits on a majestic bluff over looking the sea and the city-proper which gracefully winds its way down to the sea and the docks which are busy with the work of fishermen.

Denaille is a bustling city full of wealth, trade and much joy. There are many vistors and from Stahl, Ouestenreich and Cyrinthmeir arriving to sample and purchase Farrenshire's sweet wine and hearty brandy. Likewise many bold Farrenshire folk make their fortunes delievering said spirits to the neighbors.

I plan to also include the "Giant's Dance" (which if you remember your Arthurian Legends is what Merlin called Stone Henge) and like the legends they may have magicial properites if someone knows how to use them.

I'm trying to make Farrenshire come alive for the players so as the threat from the Gelure Empire continues to grow the players will feel like they know the land that is in peril.

Thanks in advance for any input.

I ran a game around a place I made known as farrenguard keep. A large strategic castle overlooking farrenshire bay, a strategic port. Gelure made a marine invasion and ended up in a long siege of the castle based in the port.
Uglub got impatient and ordered a couple of unsuccessful assaults, there was a nasty fight under the wall when they tried to undermine it, and the pc,s sallied out a couple of times to assault the camp combined with some commando attacks, setting fire to the gelurian ships.
Uglub had some mercs with a "tamed" gorem called tiny, trained for sieges brought in.

Farrenshire is my favorite place to begin games in, actually. There's so much potential conflict on every scale. Here's my take on a few things:

1) Highly populated for the time, because despite it's size, Farrenshire has a good economy (wine, etc). OTOH, I have no idea what "average" would be "for the time." Maybe a few 10 thousand?

2) Interesting idea, especially when some of those claims are through "bastard" children. It actually brings up a lot of interesting moral issues that your Church will have to address.

3) Good call. No help here, I'm afraid.

4) I like to make players involved with the ruling family right in Mouren. In one favorite campaign one of the PCs was son to a duke who had decided to revolt against the king. The PC had loyalty: King and passion: love father. Great game.

I love your ideas about locations, etc.

Jake

PS
Sorry I haven't posted much around here lately. I do read the board several times a week. I'll try to be better!

Jake Norwood wrote: Farrenshire is my favorite place to begin games in, actually. There's so much potential conflict on every scale. Here's my take on a few things:

1) Highly populated for the time, because despite it's size, Farrenshire has a good economy (wine, etc). OTOH, I have no idea what "average" would be "for the time." Maybe a few 10 thousand?

http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm

S John Ross has a quick and dirty population essay on his site that discusses the number of cities and population of a medieval kingdom based primarily on area and % of arable land.

Highly recommended place to start.


From my rough attempts with the map and scale, I'm guessing Farrenshire is about 15625 square miles (250 x 62.5).

Jake indicates the region has an above average population. Germany had a population density of about 87 and France 105 according to S John's site, so lets take a range of 100-120 for Farrenshire.

That puts the total population of Farrenshire (throughoughly developed and populated) at between 1.5 and 1.9 million.

Using the given guidelines we can figure the population of the largest city in Farrenshire, Mouren. Given that Jake indicates a strong economy based on wine as a trade good. And that Mouren is a well located port, we can assume Mouren is on the high end of city size for a country the size of Farrenshire.

That puts the city of Mouren between 20 and 25,000 people or about the 1/2 the size of London 1/3 the size of Paris.


Since Farrenshire is so highly developed it probably has a higher proportion of its population living in towns and cities, so we'll figure that to be 94,000 to 150,000.

Subtracting out Mouren, we're left with 74,000 to 125,000 in other cities.

Using S John's guidelines that would make:

1 city of about 12,000

1 city of about 9,500

1 city of about 8,000

and between 20-50 towns of 1000 to 8000 in population.


From there we can figure the portion of various professions present in the city. Mouren for instance likely has between 50 and 60 taverns and 10-12 inns.



We've determined Farrenshire to be fairly highly populated so there likely isn't going to be much actual wilderness, though plenty of broken up forest for game and forage. Even so 55-66% of the country will be undeveloped or undevelopable.

There is likely only 8-10 legitimate castles in Farrenshire (counting only castles less than 500 years old).

Valamir wrote: http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm



Jake indicates the region has an above average population. Germany had a population density of about 87 and France 105 according to S John's site, so lets take a range of 100-120 for Farrenshire.

Yes it is above average.

But both France and Germany were alot larger than Farrenshire. Given that Farrenshire is so small, it probably enjoys a larger number.

After all I would suspect that the population density of the Isle de Paris would be much higher than the density of France overall.

But you can always adjust the numbers to taste.

There is likely only 8-10 legitimate castles in Farrenshire (counting only castles less than 500 years old).

Emiricol wrote:

There is likely only 8-10 legitimate castles in Farrenshire (counting only castles less than 500 years old).

Are these full castles, or does that number include more mundane fortified structures like many manors? I would assume the 8-10 cited include only proper castles. Also assuming 1 castle for each of the major cities listed (as such placed tend to grow around castles, and be worth defending with a castle) that leaves us 4 castles elsewhere.

Irmo wrote:

Jake Norwood wrote: Farrenshire is my favorite place to begin games in, actually. There's so much potential conflict on every scale. Here's my take on a few things:

1) Highly populated for the time, because despite it's size, Farrenshire has a good economy (wine, etc). OTOH, I have no idea what "average" would be "for the time." Maybe a few 10 thousand?

Well, economy is one thing, but eating money is still difficult, and the most limiting factor should, I think, be how many people the country's agriculture (including fishing) is able to sustain. While Farrenshire is supposedly pretty good for that, the small size still puts quite a limit to how much city population the peasants can support, I believe. We are, after all, not talking about modern high-yield agriculture.

Prince of Thieves wrote:
1) Given Farrenshire's small size, maybe 300 miles from the western port of Mouren to the easter border, what would you guess the populations of the two major cities are?
Any help here at all would be very nice.

Prince of Thieves wrote:
4) Anyone have intresting ideas for locations or happenings in Farrenshire which you may have used/witnessed in-game?

Hey Tom. Seeing that the site you gave is pretty much a calculator based on the S John Ross information from the site I gave, I'm wondering how your numbers came out so dramatically different than mine.

Did you perhaps make a math error converting from square miles to square kms?

Hi,

Prince of Thieves wrote: I am in the midst of trying to flesh out Farrenshire for a campaign I've recently started and I'm intrested in advice and opinions.

3) In adition to the nobility I'm also trying to design the Priesthood, which I'm trying to modelling after the RW church of medieval Europe. Does anyone know of any good research resources, on the internet perferably, about structure of the church or the fuedul model in general? My current understanding suggests Farrenshire would have one Archbishop who answers to the Xanarth (Highest Priest, who is located at the Seat) and a handful(only a couple really considering Farrenshires size) of Bishops who in turn answer to the Archbishop. I'm not so certain where Cardinals fit in. :(

Thanks for the help with the population, those sites are great! The Domesday Book may just give me an excuse to find my old hex-paper. :)

I was working on dividing Farrenshire into Baronies last night, heres what I what I've got so far. Farrenshire is split into 5 pieces, (Baronies I'm calling them)


The Crown Barony(in the NW) includes Mouren, about 2/3 of the coastline and almost 1/3 of the road(Which I'm calling the King's Road) that travels from Mouren to Denaile(and on into Stahl)

Cuthhill Barony(in center N) covers about 1/3 of the northern border and dips just far enough south to cover 1/6 of the King's Road

Denaile Barony(in the E) includes Denaile and the eastern 1/3 of the King's Road. It also covers a large portion of the southern border with Ouestenreich and the northern border with Stahl.

Southvine Barony(center S) shares another 1/3 of the southern border and the last 1/6 of the King's Road.

Coastrock Barony(in the SW) controls the last 1/3 of the coastline and shares the a 1/3 of the border with Ouesenreich


Heres an ugly typed map. ;p

,,,,,,,,,,Crown.....|.......Cuthhill......../.............\
sea,,,,,,_______|____________|....Denalie
,,,,,,,,,,,,,Coastrock..|..Southvine..|......./

If the map only confuses you ignore it, as trying to type it in was probable a bad idea. Anyway each of these Baronies will, of course, been seen to by a Baron who's lands will further be subdived and seen to by bannerets (which is Bacholar Knights right? A step above a normal Knights, having his own lands?) The exception of the Crown Barony which is the seen to almost directly by the Kings and his Bannerets.

Among the Royality I've created(or will create) I have the King, 4 Barons and 14 Bannerets. How does this sound? If any one has a better understanding of the fuedal model please feel free to chime in, I look forward to some help.

And thanks abunch Ian.Plump I'm taking notes!

Noble titles tend to get a bit confusing. 1e D&D tended to portray them as a linear hierarchy of titles but in reality they are much more complicated than that.

The meanings and relative importance of noble titles change dramatically over the early to late period and also by country.

A very very rough primer:


The term Baron literally meant any noble who held his land directly from the king. Thus, in England you'll see the references to "the barons" forcing Prince John to sign the Magna Carta. Here the term "baron" was more of a collective term than a title. A count who held his fief directly from the King was a baron. A count who held his fief from a duke who held it from the king was not...though the duke was.

Traditionally the title of Duke was reserved for a noble with connections to the royal family. This tradition continues in England where I believe there are only 2 Duchal titles remaining; Lancaster, which is held by the Queen, and Cornwall, which is held by the crown prince. A Duke's lands may be vast making the Duke almost a mini King (as they were in France prior to the centralization of Monarchal powers), or they may be relatively small...even smaller than the holdings of a lesser baron. In Italy, there were hundreds of Dukes as it was used more as a title of prestige than a title of land holding.

A Marquis originally referred to a noble who was given control of a frontier (march) territory. As a result the Marquis was granted powers and authority greater than most other nobility. He was essentially a warlord with quasi independent authority. Later on, when the "frontiers" were no longer wild and threatened, the title lost most of its authority and became the equivelent of a Duke only without royal connections, making it typically slightly lower in precedence.

A count, given the continental flavor of Farrenshire is probably the most relevant title to use although one of the provinces might be a Duchy if held by a relative of the king (like the crown prince) and Denaile might have a Marquis given its border with Ouestenreich and Stahl which would probably be highly milterized. A Count is the equivelent of the English Earl and roughly on par with the German Graf (although Graf is actually a much more complicated entity as most German nobility tends to be). Most of us will only be familiar with the title Graf from the names of certain famous German Warships.

A baronet is probably the last title you were looking for. It is not generally considered a noble title. In England a baronet is not a "peer" You are correct that it is a knightly title, but confuse it with Bachelor Knight. A Bachelor Knight is knight who does not have his own lands and thus lives in quarters provided by his lord. Since the knight does not have enough property to support a wife he must remain single, and hense the association of the word Bachelor with unmarried men. Baronets are the equivelent of the German Ritter. It would be inappropriate to think of them as mini barons. The gulf between a knightly title and a noble one was as great or greater than the gulf between a noble title and a royal one.



So, I would organize your territories as follows. I'd make the crown holdings a Duchy and give it a suitable name making the king not only King of Farrenshire but also Duke of xxxx (which would provide most of his personal wealth). I'd make Southvine a Duchy as well, held say, by an appointed relative of the King as regeant for the crown prince (until the prince is of age) which will allow for some nice intriguing. I'd make Cuthhill and Coastrock Counties ruled by a count and make Denalie a Marquessate ruled by a Marquis who is one of the principle military powers of Farrenshire. I'd make the King's brother, however, Marshal of the Realm which will cause nice rivalry between the commander of the army and the Marquis who controls most of its military.

If all of these lords hold their title directly from the king then they are all technically Barons of the Realm and can be referred to as such ("the king and his barons").

The baronets would serve as senior knights and major landholders. Since they'd have sworn fealty to their lord rather than the king they would not be barons...although in the true fashion of convoluted medieval politics I would not have the various baronets lands confined neatly within the borders of the territories you've established. Some baronets might hold their title directly from the king (as opposed to from the king through his title of duke) as a reward from the king and a way to seed loyal folks throughout the provinces. They would probably go by the title of baron to distinguish their royal patronage. Further, baronets through marriage and inheritance are likely to acquire land in more than one territory and quite likely hold each territory in fealty to a different lord (very very very common before the centralization of monarchal power made everyone pretty much beholden to the king). So I'd have far more than 14 baronets. I'd have dozens and dozens...because the more twisted and tied and crossed they are, the more fun scenario ideas you can come up with.

What gets really fun is when the Count of Coastrock also holds lands from the king of Ouestenrich while one of Coastrocks most powerful baronets holds greater lands in Stahl. Good stuff.


The next thing you'll have to determine is the status of the cities. Towns and villages were part of the manoral system, but larger towns (i.e. cities) would often achieve independence from the feudal hierarchy. The crown would generally grant this in exchange for royal taxes and favorable loan rates. So you'll want to decide if the major cities of Farrenshire hold a royal charter or are part of the feudal hierarchy (or some combination). In generaly cities holding a charter were more prosperous because they were governed by alderman and burghers and the like who were generally prominent guild masters primarily interested in making profit, as opposed to being governed by nobility primarily interested in wringing them for taxes.

Woo... (removes his school cap) Thanks Valamir, that was very informative.

I'm going to start reworking and polishing my notes with most of my original critical points answered, thanks alot everyone who posted. I'll post more of the work later, maybe someone else can use them to liven up a Farrenshire Campaign or adventure.

Hi,

Prince of Thieves wrote: And thanks abunch Ian.Plump I'm taking notes!

Valamir wrote: Hey Tom. Seeing that the site you gave is pretty much a calculator based on the S John Ross information from the site I gave, I'm wondering how your numbers came out so dramatically different than mine.

Did you perhaps make a math error converting from square miles to square kms?

Hi,

Valamir wrote: Noble titles tend to get a bit confusing. 1e D&D tended to portray them as a linear hierarchy of titles but in reality they are much more complicated than that.

The meanings and relative importance of noble titles change dramatically over the early to late period and also by country.

A very very rough primer:

Ian.Plumb wrote: Hi,

Prince of Thieves wrote: And thanks abunch Ian.Plump I'm taking notes!

Shoot, gotta turn off that webcam when I'm posting to The Forge...

Cheers,

Here my vision of Farrenshire, first off though a big thanks to those of you who posted, it helped alot! Please share any further observations or advice/ideas you might have and of course feel free to use any of this in your own TROS adventures/campaigns.

I decided Farrenshire is 280 miles from Mouren to Denaile and (a generous) 93 miles from Ouestenreich to Anghard. Or about 450 km by 150 km. Using the Domesday Book and S. John Ross demographics (big thanks for those sites!) I determined these stats about Farrenshire.

It has a population of 2,678,000 people, with about 80,000 living in 6 cities.

Most of what follows is drawn from handouts I plan to give my players.

A breakdown of the land. (special thanks to Valamir here)


Duchy of Northshire
Spans the Northwestern area of Farrenshire including the capital of Mouren, a good portion (1/3) of the King’s Road, from Mouren to a league from Wannore and a full 2/3rds of the coast; from North Bay to the Loch of Eagles. Also include the King’s Castle of Kenlit
Ruled over by King of all Farrenshire, Aldwyn II.
Other Persons of Note:
Marshal of the Realm, Duke Ceolfrid Deormod
Bishop of Mouren Amos Medwin

County of Cuthhill
Spans the Northern center of Farrenshire, the only County to touch each and every other County and Duchy in Farrenshire. Covering a majority of the northern border, a small portion (1/6) of the King’s Road and holds two of Farrenshire’s six cities, Wannore and Attenborough.
Ruled over by the Count of Cuthhill, Baron Henry Cuthwine.

County of Coastroch
Covers the Southwestern corner of Farrenshire, enjoys the remaining southern coastline, the city of Noadam and holds a 7-league border with Ouestenreich. The only county that the King’s Road does not pass through.
Ruled over by the Count of Coastroch, Baron Albert Eadmaer.

Duchy of Southvine
Covers the small, but very bountiful, Southern center of Farrenshire. Shares a 10-league border with Ouestenreich, and holds a small portion (1/6) of the Kings Road and the growing city of Freskin.
Ruled over by Duke Alfred Deormod, Regent of the Crown Prince Aldwyn III.

County of Estlee
Spans the full eastern edge of Farrenshire, shares an 11-league border with Ouestenreich and a 12-league border with Stahl and contains the last portion of the King’s Road before it winds through Denaile into Stahl. Denaile is the only free-city in Farrenshire, having recently purchased a charter for self-governance. Estlee also houses many powerful fortifications, some new castles such as Castle Hargreave and Castle Estburh even rival the might of the Kings own Castle of Kenlit
Ruled over by the Marquis of Estlee, Baron Owen Hargreave.
Other Persons of Note:
Duke Eckgard Cuthwine and Duchess Ecgwynna Deormod
Archbishop of Denaile Julian Erardon



Cities of Farrenshire


Mouren and Castle Kenlit
Castle Kenlit sits on a majestic bluff overlooking the sea and Mouren, which gracefully winds its way down to the coast. Mouren has a population of 19,000. No where is the prosperity of Farrenshire or the fairness of its just rule more plainly seen then in the beautifully vibrant capitol. The people are healthy and full of good cheer, enjoying many gaieties such as festivals and the grand tourneys that Mouren oft hosts.

Wannore
90 miles east on the King’s Road, at the southwestern edge of the County of Cuthhill is Wannore, a small city (population 9,000) brought to life by the road traffics. This city bustles with business but is uninspired and unbeautiful, except for the massive Cathedral of St. Vannora, for which the city is named.

Freskin
80 miles east of Wannore, at the northeastern corner of the Duchy of Southvine is Freskin, a city of 11,000 souls who enjoy being the neighbor of prosperous Denaile. Freskin is a colorful and merry city, which is pleased to host many Tourneys, almost as many as the capital city Mouren. The guildsmen of Freskin look to the future and plan to follow Denaile’s example of independence, they now petition their lord to hear they offers for a charter.

Denaile
Recently granted the right to self-govern, Denaile is a bustling city full of wealth, trade and much joy. There are many visitors from Stahl, Ouestenreich and Cyrinthmeir arriving to sample and purchase Farrenshire's sweet wine and hearty brandy. Likewise many bold Farrenshire folk make their fortunes delivering spirits to said neighbors.

Attenborough
This northernmost city, deep in the County of Cuthhill, is small (with only 8,000 people) but has the distinction of being Farrenshire’s sole producer of domestic iron. Attenborough, which depends on a circuit of nearby towns to mine the ore deposits, rolls out numerous caravans loaded with iron ores and timber, which is also plentiful.

Noadam
Farrenshire’s only other large coastal settlement is found within the County of Coastroch. Noadam a city of 8,000 souls has in the past enjoyed friendly relations and trade with Ouestenreich. But recent treaties with Gelure have caused trade and prosperity to wane in this city.


Other places of note


The Giants Dance An ancient circle of standing stones about 80 miles east of Mouren. Despite pressure from the Church, many locals still flock here and to other less known standing stones for old ceremonies and heathen druid rituals.

Loch of the Eagles A sea inlet about 30 miles north of Noadam, which is feed by many rivers and streams and dotted with numerous craggy islands, which each bear an eyrie of eagles that gather here each year. The eagles are known to foretell of prodigious events by all of them emitting a shrill scream together.
(Based on Lock Lomond as described in Arthurian Legend)



Thats enough for now, hope you all enjoyed. Tomorrow I'll try to post the very brief history of Farrenshire I've come up with and the most important part, my players and their PCs.

Wow, thats a good description. I think the real interesting thing now is getting all of the relationships/conflicts between the areas and nobles ruling them. I don't know if you've got those mapper out, but i think those conflicts are what make having all of these territories worth while.
Good Stuff

SMB

Hi,

Prince of Thieves wrote: Here's my vision of Farrenshire...(SNIP)

The Giants Dance An ancient circle of standing stones about 80 miles east of Mouren. Despite pressure from the Church, many locals still flock here and to other lesser known standing stones for old ceremonies and heathen druid rituals.

Sir Mathodius Black wrote: Wow, thats a good description. I think the real interesting thing now is getting all of the relationships/conflicts between the areas and nobles ruling them. I don't know if you've got those mapper out, but i think those conflicts are what make having all of these territories worth while.
Good Stuff
SMB

Ian.Plumb wrote:
I look forward to the scenario where the Church demolish the standing stone circle, build a church there, name one or two locally famous deceased druidic leaders as Saints of the Church, and absorb selected icons of that druidic Faith into the regalia of that particular church.