Ladies and Gentlemen,

I've completed chapter 4 of 'Your Gods Are Dead' (YGAD). With the completion of this chapter I feel there's enough of a skeleton for me to start distributing the chapters I have - as a playtest version.

It's free, naturally, and cannot be found on the web, yet, except through this link:

Your Gods Are Dead

(If your browser opens word on-screen, right-click to download instead).

It's about 18 pages of word file, with pages 10-14 new content to those that already had a look at what I posted.

Comments of all types are greatly appreciated. Yes, that includes flames.

For those who haven't had a chance to look at the other YGAD threads yet, YGAD is a fantasy roleplaying game that doesn't use dice but a bag to draw tiles from. This bag is further modified with a few special tiles that can reflect the world or activate the 'special' nature of the player characters. Character development is without numerical stats but uses a non-predetermined life path system.

I hope you enjoy it, and thanks for your attention so far!

Tobias

Ok, so it was a little naive of me to be hoping for feedback already. I'll be patient. In the meantime, I cleaned up some of the text of YGAD yesterday evening, and replaced the old playtest version with this new text. Link is still the same, any comments welcome.

I am not able to download the file. Perhaps you should check your provider or something?

That, obviously, is no good.

I'm on it. Thanks for the heads-up.

Anyone else experience this problem?

[Edit] I can download the file with several computers on the local sub-net I have here. But it's possible the provider has mapped my ip adress as having more priviliges. Has anyone else been able to Dload this succesfully? Could anyone give a download a shot to see if it works?

In the meantime, I will provide copies through e-mail to anyone looking (file size is about 100 kb).

Thanks!

When accessing the address provided for download, the following error message is given:

HTTP1.1 STATUS 403 Remote Access to this object forbidden This file cannot be directly accessed from a remote site, but must be linked through the Brinkster Member's site.

Cheers,
Gary

Hi,

FYI, I've just downloaded the file without any trouble. You might want to make it available in some format other than MS Word though -- although most people can view it these days, it's nicer to not have to download a separate file (and I'm always suspicious of Word files for macros and the like). Word's HTML export feature generally sucks, but might be better than nothing.

I'm just reading through the file now, and I like it. I'll try to give some initial reactions.

You might want to reevaluate your introduction to the game (the first section). Your description proposes the often-seen "Impossible Thing Before Breakfast": the players shape the story, but the GM is really the author. Unfortunately, these are mutually contradictory statements. Either the story is controlled by everyone (including by players through characters) or only by the GM. You can't have it both ways. I have a feeling you were just going for familiar language, but it's deceptive language...

Basic mechanics are interesting -- i.e. The Bag, Push, and Karma. I think they could work really well. I also do like the distinction between characters powers in terms of Contact, Flowing and Dreaming, which formalizes we often see in different style of fantasy or martial arts movies/books/etc. Why aren't Contact, Flowing and Dreaming made more explicit though, especially on the character sheet? They seem pretty central.

IIEE stuff (turns et al): Looks good, though I think you might be underestimating how useful some more solid advise on organizing play in "non tense" situations can be. (Or maybe you just haven't gotten around to it yet.) Even if unstated in the rules, players need mechanics for such things. For instance, you write:

The storykeeper will generally describe the results of the action, but in some circumstances, some other player might describe the results, or you might get to describe the results of your own character's action.

you're NOT allowed to put an "if" when you describe what your character does. When you're really pushing, there's no room for doubt.

Gary Kennedy wrote: When accessing the address provided for download, the following error message is given:

HTTP1.1 STATUS 403 Remote Access to this object forbidden This file cannot be directly accessed from a remote site, but must be linked through the Brinkster Member's site.

Cheers,
Gary

Jasper,

Thanks for trying, and for reading. I'll reply with sections of text from the document where possible - not as a "see, it's there", but to get to clarify those bits if neccessary right away. As to the word file - if it's giving anyone trouble (or, like Jasper, have aversion to macro's), let me know. Know that the file was filtered through my work firewall - which is updated daily.

Jasper wrote:
You might want to reevaluate your introduction to the game (the first section). Your description proposes the often-seen "Impossible Thing Before Breakfast": the players shape the story, but the GM is really the author. Unfortunately, these are mutually contradictory statements. Either the story is controlled by everyone (including by players through characters) or only by the GM. You can't have it both ways. I have a feeling you were just going for familiar language, but it's deceptive language...

Basic mechanics are interesting -- i.e. The Bag, Push, and Karma. I think they could work really well. I also do like the distinction between characters powers in terms of Contact, Flowing and Dreaming, which formalizes we often see in different style of fantasy or martial arts movies/books/etc. Why aren't Contact, Flowing and Dreaming made more explicit though, especially on the character sheet? They seem pretty central.

IIEE stuff (turns et al): Looks good, though I think you might be underestimating how useful some more solid advise on organizing play in "non tense" situations can be. (Or maybe you just haven't gotten around to it yet.) Even if unstated in the rules, players need mechanics for such things. For instance, you write:

The storykeeper will generally describe the results of the action, but in some circumstances, some other player might describe the results, or you might get to describe the results of your own character's action.

Under what circumstances does this happen? Which player gets to narrate? Who decides all this? Is it just up to the whim of the GM? Leaving it up in the air is confusing. Oh, I like the turn order depending on character age. Nice touch :)

In the Push section,

you're NOT allowed to put an "if" when you describe what your character does. When you're really pushing, there's no room for doubt.

So players can normally put "if"s in their statements? Did I miss that ealier? I can kind of guess what this might be -- a contigency statement for the upcoming turn say -- but it needs to be explained more explicitly, including exactly what contigency statements are allowed, and how they should be used.

I'm going to look over combat and the rest of the document later when I have some more time, hopefully soon. I'm really like The Bag though, with all the different tiles going in and coming out of it. I'd like to play it just to use it.

Hi Tobias,

My apologies for completely missing the "if" rules! I was in a hurry before and must have glossed over it. They seem fine :)

I'd like to note that I find the casual style you've written the rules in to make them quite approachable, especially for a newbie I'd imagine (aside from the aforementioned need for more clarity in places). I'd say stick with that style. If nothing else it sets you apart from the myriad "empty voice" style rule-sets everyone is so familiar with.

Here's another bit that stuck out at me:

If you have another blank draw with the same type of action during the current scene, you fail badly, and the storykeeper will not hesitate describing something awful.

A storykeeper is free to add more tiles to the bag without explaining what they do in advance or during the game, to add mystery to the world.

For those characters that are Flowing, they?ll discover their natural sensitivities more in line with what they?ve been promoting.

Jasper,

Thanks again for the comments.

I wasn't aware my style came over as casual - but it is something I was shooting for, so that's all good as far as I'm concerned. Any really experienced group will rip apart the rules (and setting) as much as they want and reassemble it anyway - so no need to be all cast-in-stone about them.

As for the confrontational role of GM vs. player - well, only as much as it will get players and GMs fired up about making the world an exciting place. Illusionism - well, it's all about exploration, right? Of the inner self, the outer world, and, in this case, the Bag. (And yeah, I get a kick out of capitalizing that word... ;) ).

One of the aspects of the Bag is just what you note you like: more switch-up with player narration. In that case, just double the amount of player tiles to your liking (with or without telling your players, if you were GMing... or just by reaching group consensus).

About the number of tiles drawn - that was one of the things I started worrying about once I had assembled my own bag. In the beginning, when drawing about 7-9, I often drew to many. But after about 10 draws, you get a good feel for the amount in your hand. I find just grabbing a few, aiming for a bit less than the amount you want works for me. I draw just the right amount, or 1 or 2 short - which heightens the suspense as I go back in the bag for those last 2. Those just lie on the table and are easily read before being chucked back in. Unintentional, but fun. One tip though: don't make them too small. Of course, once this game is selling multiple thousands of copies worldwide, I can produce my own line of Tiles - and maybe even Bags.

Hey, a guy can Dream... ;)

If you draw an environment tile that lets you describe which supernatural event you want to occur, and on the next draw you draw your player tile (so you can describe the resolution of the fantastical event), you get to describe that as well - but the GM still 'sets' the amount of sucesses you need. So you would describe your own success or failure. But I will have to make that explicit, indeed.

The reason I chose for no more options in combat stance is ease & simplicity. In general, around 2-5 sucesses will be coming up - having another 2 ways to divide them seems a bit bothersome, with all the fractions flying around. And there's a bit of elegance to this - either you're level-headed and fighting 'normally', or your scared shitless or bloodmad/(over)confident.

As to Flowing, from the text again:

"Whenever contact happens, you get 2 extra draws in any skill/effort that closely matches the goals and values of the surroundings."

Your problem comes from my scattering the descriptions of F/F/D over 2 chapters: character creation and drawing. This is because I havn't found the balance yet of where which (amount of) text should be. The current division of mechanics (F/F in chapter 3 and D in Chapter 4) is hideous, I know, I need to resolve that.

More examples are needed, in general, and some of these would indeed have to wind up in the GM section.

Hi,

Okay, you've cleared up a lot of points there for me. In the rules, I'd definitely recommend brief introductions to the relevant rules, and then locate the full body of them all together. But since this is a playtest, that needn't be at the top of your proprities. (I personally usually do at least two re-writes after the first rough copy, one for playtesting, and one for the final.)

Regarding the Bag and handling time: I was so much concerned with drawign the right number -- which hadn't occurred to me -- but simply with having so many tiles to consider once they're drawn, e.g. the positive and negatives that may cancel one another. But you've played it, so if it doesn't seem to be a problem, then all's well!

Tobias,

I've read over your rules as well as Jasper's comments and your responses. Overall, I like the concepts for background and mechanics. The old god's powers being passed on to humanity is roughly similar to one of the background elements of a game I am currently writing (not close enough to be worrysome though).

Here are my comments:
In general, you need to clean up the text and organize the section better (keep all the explanations related to a particular aspect or mechanic in the same place). You've already mentionned this yourself so 'nuff said.

The power that was left in the fragments that rained down died soon after they hit the earth. The power had to go somewhere though – and some of it flowed into people.

You can be anyone you choose to be.

You get to pick birth benefits and hindrances first. Two benefits are free. To get any more (if you want them), you’ll have to balance them with hindrances

Your character must have at least 1 block of career – thus the youngest starting age is 15 years old. You may take at most 5 blocks, which would make your character around 27 years old.

After a period of playing your character will grow older and more experienced. After a time, you can request the storykeeper for life benefits or hindrances if they’re appropriate, or adding a hobby or career to your character sheet.

Jasper wrote: Hi,

Regarding the Bag and handling time: I was so much concerned with drawign the right number -- which hadn't occurred to me -- but simply with having so many tiles to consider once they're drawn, e.g. the positive and negatives that may cancel one another. But you've played it, so if it doesn't seem to be a problem, then all's well!

Gary - thanks.

You've uncovered quite a few patches that still need to be filled in, some of which were expected, but some which were true blind spots.

Gary Kennedy wrote: I've read over your rules as well as Jasper's comments and your responses. Overall, I like the concepts for background and mechanics. The old god's powers being passed on to humanity is roughly similar to one of the background elements of a game I am currently writing (not close enough to be worrysome though).

The power that was left in the fragments that rained down died soon after they hit the earth. The power had to go somewhere though – and some of it flowed into people.

The power died and went somewhere? I think you need to be clearer on what actually happened. This depends on the nature of the power that flowed in to people. You also say that some of it flowed in to people, how much and where did the rest go?

You describe some ways a character can loose health, but nothing on how it can be recovered. Also, since social interaction with the world seems to be almost as important as physical interaction, shouldn't you have a similar tracking device for it?

You can be anyone you choose to be.

You get to pick birth benefits and hindrances first. Two benefits are free. To get any more (if you want them), you’ll have to balance them with hindrances

Your character must have at least 1 block of career – thus the youngest starting age is 15 years old. You may take at most 5 blocks, which would make your character around 27 years old.

These quotes are contradictory. One one hand you say that characters can be anything at all, while on the other you impose some balanced development. Go one way or the other.

In career development, you mention levels of career. Is this the equivalent of simply selecting a career twice in the same block?
You also get to select benefits/hinderances during career development. Do these need to be balanced as at birth?

You use the terms Scene and Turn to control the flow of time. As stated, the definitions are quite vague as to the duration of each or what actions can be taken during each.

Regarding drawing: I'm assuming every player uses the same bag and that drawn tiles are returned after each draw? This should be stated explicitly.

The Storykeeper assigning draw bonuses for "vivid" descriptions is very subjective and can lead to player-GM antagonism. I would provide a clearer description of what "vivid" means or drop the concept altogether. See my comments a little further down on Special Tiles for an idea on replacing this mechanic.

Push and Karma are quite similar and while Karma can grant automatic successes, I do not think that Push should. After all, trying really hard does not guarantee success. Rather I think Push should allow a player to draw extra tiles. If you go with this idea, I would put the declaration of both Karma and Push to before the draw is made (thus eliminating Karma min/maxing by players waiting to see if they have enough success before spending points).

Special Tiles:
You state that Environment tiles only activate IF the action is described in an imaginative way. Definite GM-player antagonism here. I would drop this clause completely. You draw it, you get the Contact.

Good/Bad Karma: What does this represent in the game world? If the players are more in tune with the world as a result of the power, what force causes them to be more or less in tune at any given moment?

There seems to be some confusion as to whether the effect of drawing a special tile is applied to the immediate action (which would be my preference) or to the next action (for the Dreamer). I understand that in the case of the Dreamer, something fantastic needs to be described (which may not have been done prior to the draw), so here is my suggestion:

Combine the Environment Tiles with the Player Tiles. When a player draws and Environment Tile, their Contact kicks in and the player gets to describe the outcome of the action (adding fantastic elements for the Dreamer). This simplifies the draw out of the Bag and creates a smoother game flow, in my opinion.

You seem to want to favour evocative descriptions of events and surroundings. Instead of putting restrictive IF clauses here and there ("IF the description is vivid", etc...), why not use something like Feng Shui's systems of rewarding description? Something along the lines of "each descriptive sentence related to the current scene lowers the required number of successes by 1"? This way you would be encouraging players to be more descriptive and not legislating them to be so.

After a period of playing your character will grow older and more experienced. After a time, you can request the storykeeper for life benefits or hindrances if they’re appropriate, or adding a hobby or career to your character sheet.

I have two problems with this. First what is "after a time"? A session, a quest, a number of years (a block of 3) or something else? The second, and it may just be a matter of opinion, is that as a character gets older and more experienced, he also gets slower in this game. Since priority of action goes to the youngest character, the older experienced ones will be waiting to take their action. If this is what is intended, then good, but I felt I should point out this effect of aging.

Overall, some good concepts at work here. I kinda prefer rolling dice myself (when using a random element), but the Bag allows for some interesting manipulations. Keep it up!
Gary

Wow!
What a cool game!

Have you read the book, "The Gods of Eden?" Check it out. It may give you some ideas for your world. :)

As to those colored stones, just go to an aquarium shop. You can get bags of stones of assorted colors there for cheap.


Also,
Have you heard of the old card systems by White Wolf called, "The Paths of Intrigue," and "The Paths of Horror," and "The Paths of Wimsy"....?

These cards allowed the players in the game to determine the plot.
Each player got a bunch of cards that described events. Each card also had a number.
The rules were that you could play a card during a game and these cards allowed the player to describe what happened. Sort of like co-GMs.
The player could use a card with a number equal to or lower than any other cards played as I recall.
If he wanted to increase the tension, he could play a card of one number higher than any other previously played card. That way, the higher cards were further down the plotline and were bigger events.

For instance, a card, "Mysterious Stranger" (2) says, "Introduce the appearance of a new and strange character into the story. This individual forbodes an uncertain and mysterious future. This card also allows you to describe in more detail anyone the GM has mentioned in passing."

The final card was the "climax card" and helped end the story.

In case you're curious, here are some of the titles of The Paths of Intrigue cards:
1. Things are not as they seem.
2. Mysterious stranger.
3. Convincing argument.
3. Ulterior motive.
3. Hidden weapon.
4. Malicious intent.
5. Mistaken identity.
6. Startling discovery.
6. Unwelcome visitor.
[These are the numbers on the cards]

Perhaps you could introduce a system like this into your tiles....

Then again, maybe you've done it already... I haven't finished reading your game. :)

Sounds cool Mark, thanks.

I haven't included tiles/cards like you mention. But I'll make sure the GM section tells the GM that if he's up for experiments like this, this would make a cool addition.

Can you name the author for that book, btw?

The Gods of Eden, by William Bramley

It's sort of a historical conspiracy book, where the UFO people are actually fallen angels that have taken over human history.