All,

You may or may not be aware of a game I'm designing, Your Gods are Dead. Related to that game are a bunch of questions I've been having in my mind for a long time, sort of a recurring interest/theme of my life: humanity and humanism.

(YGAD is, at the same time, a conglomeration of all my gaming experiences. So it may just be my mandatory Fantasy Heartbreaker.)

Since the issues are not limited to YGAD, I thought I would put both a sense of the general questions and a question on how they can be reflected in a game (so as to make exploration of the concepts also possible by the group). See, I'm exploring what my human nature means to me. Values, ethics, etc., beliefs, and I wind up with a 'rational humanism' as a belief structure. An expansion of my personal human nature to humankind in general.

This specific post is concerned with color. The mechanics of YGAD and the setting (the Gods are gone, what do you do?) try to take into account the importance of a character's presence and interaction with the environment already. (Whether they are succeeding I don't know at all, but that's another subject. For instance, I'm not sure I'm getting the balance between gamism and simulationism right - or am even aware of it enough.)

But getting color right - that's got me stumped. I'm aware of some posts that say that a game does not neccesarily need strong color - and I'm probably already injecting color by my own natural style of writing. But specifically trying to set color might help, if it can be done.

I don't want some pedantic game, with YGAD. I want a fantasy game that touches upon some questions of humanity/humanism. I don't want the horror-angst-what-have-I-become mood of the World of Darkness.

So basically, the question boils down to: what color would/could YOU put on games exploring these issues? In YGAD, that color would be mixed with your 'normal' fantasy elements, but in other games, the fantasy element might be gone completely and the focus more on these issues.

My apologies if this is rambling. I generally find it difficult to explain my personal philosophy succinctly, but I hope that isn't too essential to this post - I'm looking for descriptions that would entice you to play in a game that explores these issues, not settle a debate.

I'm also willing to entertain the thought that I don't need to try to get these concepts into the game - that any game that has characters that are compelling enough that make players go "my character would never do that, because it's against his ethics" is automatically going/getting there.

Anyways, responses (or questions to clarify things) welcome.

Hi Tobias,

...what color would/could YOU put on games exploring these issues?

Point(s) taken, and thanks for it. Allow me to re-phrase:

'What would be (the most) effective colors for this exploring this theme?'

I understand that there still are a million possibilities, but color, as a design tool, is new for me. So some ideas might also just be good to get me jumpstarted.

For instance, one option would be to have parts of text told from the viewpoint of a disillusioned priest to one of the old gods - in YGAD's specific case. In a more general case, anything that juxtaposes humanism as a value system against something else.

I'm leaning towards something confrontational, a challenge to get the job done, myself.

And I'm not sure I get your P.S. Could you elaborate?

Consider, then, tweaking some of the text you already have.

For example:

Society also has to adapt, which is like saying a patient has to learn to live without a major organ.

into

Society also has to adapt, which is like saying a patient has to learn to live without a crutch.


Among the questions I think you're trying to riase:

- Is religion necessary?

- Is religion the same as faith?

- Are god(s) necessary? Can people stand on their own without real/mythological assistance?

- Does good behaviour depend on feared retribution ("be good or god will punish you")?

- Welfare (divine favor) vs workfare (doing it for yourself)

For the same reason, I'd drop the text claiming that the god's power flowed into people. Players are special not because of a divine taint, but because they have decided to stand on their own feet and act. Their extra tiles represent accumulated expertise - gained by doing things for themselves. I do realize this idea really mucks with much of the color in your system-as-written (Forming/Flowing/Dreaming would need to be reconceptualized under new terms, for example).

You've got a system, and I've tried to read back at you the premise that jumps out at me - the next trick to to identify the premise you're really on about, and make sure the color lines up solidly to ensure that it communicates that premise.

[And I'm not saying that's easy. :) ]

Good stuff here, thanks. I'll definately use the organ -> crutch thing.

You've nailed some of the questions I'm raising, for sure. One of the things I'm really looking for is - what do people strive for when they're out there 'all alone'. They remember a certain ethic that used to be reinforced, do they keep striving for it? Does 'basic human nature' mess them up?

It's also a good call about dropping or modifying the 'power flowed into them' thing - at least the presentation of it. I'll tell you the reasons I'm not dropping them without pause:

1 - I do want to back up the 'specialness' of the characters (and individuals in general) with some sort of power that stems from their Values. I'm also wondering if I could actually rewrite Forming/Flowing/Dreaming in a meaningful way without it being thematically shoehorned in. And I like a little fantasy in my setting, a little magic, and this seemed an obvious way.

2 - I'm also interested in 'the next generation' - would the children of the currently empowered generation still have the same power? I'm shooting for a scenario where they don't - and the current character generation are the last remnants of the old ways. Maybe I can expand on this thought a little, and make it clear that the characters are an in-between phase - which might give them additional worries as they try to plan for their children. In that case, the attention for kids might be played up as part of humanity.

I'm keeping my gun ready in case any of these are Sacred Cows, though. Thanks again for the suggestions.

I do want to back up the 'specialness' of the characters (and individuals in general) with some sort of power that stems from their Values. I'm also wondering if I could actually rewrite Forming/Flowing/Dreaming in a meaningful way without it being thematically shoehorned in.

I like that radical thought. I've played White Wolf's Mage before, and thus am familiar with 'world-mind' empowered concepts/paradigms. I generally prefer to have all fantasy (in whatever game I play) 'powers' derive from such human mind-energy anyway - without stating it out loud.

Yes, that could work. Some hints at the 'true' explanation could be given in the storykeeper's section. I initially decided to keep away from the idea that the gods were empowered by humans in the first place since I thought it might be a bit much for the players - but maybe I should give them more credit.

'Parasites', 'Toxic waste' etc. does set mood quite nicely, so I'll have to ponder those. And the benign parasitism idea could certainly work.

TROS' Spiritual Attributes - well, I don't own TROS, just the playtest. I have read about them, but don't know the details. In one version of YGAD, the Value and Goals thing were actually numbered stats, but I found it ugly to put a number on something like 'kindness'.

A short suggestion before going back to work:

Recognize your favourite literary works for the kind of themes you want to evoke as color. Read them again. This helps in four ways:
1) you can copy what makes the works in question evocative of the color.
2) you can use intertext to evoke the memory of the works in question in readers who are already familiar with your sources.
3) you can just ask your reader to familiarize themselves with the seminal works that tell it better than you ever could.
4) Ultimately the only way to learn writing is to experience it. Learn from the best, so you may yourself become their peer.

For liberal humanism I'd probably go with some genre authors (Asimov springs to mind for some reason, although there are stronger options) from the '60s. Ultimately it's up to you to choose based on what impresses you.

It's true that one of the big hurdles with TROS's SAs is the notion that the actual number assigned to an SA does not indicate the strength of the SA - the usual example is that you don't love your wife more or less at "Love Wife 1" or "Love Wife 5".

I suggest http://www.theriddleofsteel.net/whatis/SA.htm as the best explanation of the potential power of SAs - they serve as a means to empower the players & characters in situations where something that matters is on the line.

None of which means that SAs are the perfect solution for you, or that a mutated version of them is what you need, either. Something to chew on, though, since one of the themes I think I'm seeing is the question of what really matters to people, why it matters, and what they'll do/suffer to get to outcomes they want. SAs can mesh well with that.

Glad to have been of some assistance - I'm looking forward to the next version; it's an interesting background to me. :) (On the other hand, my base reaction to the bag-of-chips concept is "urk", on a handling level, though I *do* recognize it lets you do some nifty things that a percentile dice system cannot.)

Recognize your favourite literary works for the kind of themes you want to evoke as color. Read them again.

I'm with Eero on this. Were it my game, I'd probably re-read Camus (definitely The Plague, but likely The Stranger as well).

Paul

JamesSterrett wrote: I suggest http://www.theriddleofsteel.net/whatis/SA.htm as the best explanation of the potential power of SAs - they serve as a means to empower the players & characters in situations where something that matters is on the line.

In TROS, you get "XP" in the form of increases to your SA pools. You can then cash in dice from your SA pools to increase your skills & stats.

Thus SAs reward you for using them, twice - you get to survive better, and you get to improve your character, since SA dice get awarded for SA use....

Your comment on dumping all the points into combat does raise the question - are there skills worth using other than combat skills? I'm presuming that in YGAD the answer is "yes". (I haven't played HQ, and thus don't know the answer for HQ, though I confess I hope the answer is also "yes". :) )

And, of course, none of this means SAs are necessarily the right thing for YGAD.

Eero - good point. If anyone wants to chip in more titles, that'd be appreciated. Right now I'm leaning towards staying in a casual writing style, and to having a disillusioned proponent of the old ways (a former priest) and a gung-ho roustabout as proponent of the news ways as In-Character voices that could talk to the character. Kinda the angel-devil-on-shoulder-routine. Much of their opinions could come from some of the works I'll (re)read.

James - I'll have a look. Whether they work for me or not, chewing on SAs can't hurt. As to the handling problems of a bag of chips - it's not too bad, I assure you, as long as you don't make them the 'potato' kind. The answer to your question of whether it's worth to "[dump] points in non-combat skills" would be a resounding yes - depending on the campaign. In a very social campaign, with lots of courtly intrigue, you'll need those social skills. To survive in the forest, you better have some wilderness skills. Etc. If the GM and players agree it's going to be a campaign that's mostly about the Wars, sure, combat skills are probably a smart thing.

Simon and Paul - thanks for your suggestions - will look into it.

Had a look at both Riddle of Steel and HeroQuest.

Riddle of Steel is a bit (too) crunchy to me (personal taste), which is why I'll not play it, but SA's look cool. The concept of having them be intermediate stages of XP that are then used again is cool, but as a mechanic doesn't really excite me for YGAD. Adhering to your value does not make you a better swordfighter, in my book (if this is me interpreting the TROS rules wrong, apologies).

Hero quest looks really cool, especially also having relationships as well as personal values. I read in another thread the GM giving 'bonuses' to his players if they took family ties to each other or to the village they were in at the start of the campaign, and thought it was quite nice to stimulate 'caring'. Since I'm looking at generational stuff in YGAD, maybe I can get such a tie-in without needing number for it.

Reading both at least has me convinced I need more clarity in gaining, regaining, and using both Karma and Push. This was neccesary anyway. I'll tell you what I'm leaning towards now:

Push is regained by getting to relax after having worked at your goal. If you've promoted your goal since the last break, you get 1 to three push (back).

Karma is regained by accomplishing things that mirror your value. If stuff has happened in the surrounding due to your (in)direct influence, you gain 1 to three Karma.

Now, both statistics have a 'half-life'. If you just loaf around an inn for 2 year, they'll sure be zero. This will, hopefully, keep the players driven somewhat.

Now, Push and Karma cannot pass 5. If they would (say: drawing a + karma tile, or having accomplished much towards your goal without spending push, or gaining Karma through value) go over 5, all excess drains off, you fall back to 3, and the player gets to describe a long-term setting-altering event through their contact in the same manner their contact would activate in the short-term way when drawing an environment tile.

Some examples and extra lines of text would have to make the rules more clear to the reader/player.

On a whole other note: this thread is drifting all over the place. I don't mind, since I'm getting good stuff out of it, but I am aware and willing to split or anything else if people want.

Tobias

JamesSterrett wrote: Your comment on dumping all the points into combat does raise the question - are there skills worth using other than combat skills? I'm presuming that in YGAD the answer is "yes". (I haven't played HQ, and thus don't know the answer for HQ, though I confess I hope the answer is also "yes". :) )

Define color.

Your game is a fantasy game? Like a fantasy hearbreaker, as you mentioned? Then you already have color, it seems to me. As we use it around here, color is just the in-game description of stuff that doesn't have a mechanical effect. So, do dwarves all have beards? That's color.

Are you looking for a particular mood?

In trying to see what you're looking for, using your definition, what would you say that the color of Vampire: The Masquerade is?

Mike

Tobias wrote: Riddle of Steel is a bit (too) crunchy to me (personal taste), which is why I'll not play it, but SA's look cool. The concept of having them be intermediate stages of XP that are then used again is cool, but as a mechanic doesn't really excite me for YGAD. Adhering to your value does not make you a better swordfighter, in my book (if this is me interpreting the TROS rules wrong, apologies).

Mike - I'm using color as both a description of a feel for the in-game world (which would be like adding mood/atmosphere to generic setting, I guess), as well as that feel/style shining through in the actual written text.

I have no qualms with the way you use it (I'm all in favor of having mutual understanding/agreement of terms), but I read the definition of color in the provisional glossary to be a bit broader:

"Imagined details about any or all of System, Character, Setting, or Situation, added in such a way that does not change aspects of action or resolution in the imagined scene. One of the Components of Exploration. "

(I feel a bit of a prick for quoting 'scripture' at one of the old guys, but that's a n00b thing. :) )

Mood is undefined in the glossary, I think. If there's a definition out there that catches mood/atmosphere of the written text and mood/atmosphere of the game world that you (or anyone) can point me to, that would be fine. Or are such matters considered to be an innate part of the setting?

As to the color of vampire: a mix of gothicness, sensuality, brutality. More broad stroke concepts than dwarves have beards.

contracycle - good point. getting more dice doesn't automatically have to translate into a meaning of 'becoming better', of course. Let me just rephrase that I want to avoid the 'by adhering strongly to my principles of universal love, I became a better swordfighter'. (Where better is: 'skewers people more effectively', and not 'picks fights using superior ethical principles')

I actually checked the glossary just to be sure that the definition hadn't changed under me before I posted.

What you're talking about is mood. Which is part of color - don't get me wrong. But it's just one small part. You have a lot of your color already set out for you in having selected a fantasy setting. The setting tells us that there are dwarves, which have a +1 to Strength (or whatever). Any other imagined detail that doesn't have a mechanical reprecussion is color. So beards count (unless there's a beard length rule or something).

My point is that I think it would help to use the term mood and atmophere, or motifs - these are really what you're describing. And in acknowledging that you have a fantasy world to start helps us define that subset of color that will go along with the rest of the color. For instance, if this was not fantasy, I might suggest a feeling of industrial alienation. But that won't fit with the rest of the fantasy color (or it might provide an interesting juxtaposition if that's what you're after).

I say this because people are faliling about here suggesting mechanics and such, which are definitely system and not color. Because they haven't been given a jumping off point. Saying "fantasy" does that (hopefully).

I wasn't even sure that this was going to be a fantasy game for sure until you acknowledged that (could have been the modern-day counterpart to a fantasy hearbreaker, I dunno).

Mike

Well, the posts HAVE drifted hither and yon, yes. The original question was just on 'color for humanist games' - which should've been color/mood for humanist games instead. The fantasy aspect was only emphasized due to the connection with YGAD - which is called a fantasy game.

Thanks for the clarification on mood/color. I would like the thread to proceed in the direction of 'mood' that would be applicable to (possibly fantasy) humanist games.

Before that happens, I would like to resolve one other thing:

I'm wondering about the qualification of fantasy -> dwarves. If many people feel like you like that fantasy automatically equates to a whole tolkien-esque bevvy of humanoids etc., then fantasy is definately not the correct label - at least not the way I'd look at it. All these things might be present, but mostly as myth, fables. Is that 'low' fantasy? 'hidden' fantasy? Cause I'm not looking to complicate the focus on humanity/humanism with several 'sub'races - or just simple orcbashing.

Industrial alienation would actually work in fantasy - getting a sort of steampunk, Arcanum-esque setting. But let's not go into that any further.

See, that's what I'm looking for. Basically you seem to have some vague ideas about setting, but you seem to be waffling. I assumed you meant "standard fantasy" (which means elves, dwarves, and, well, Tolkien), because of your use of "Fantasy Heartbreaker" (which are actually often identified by their variation on elves and such).

What I'm saying is that it's going to be hard to identify a proper mood without knowing what the other color is like. And that requires defining your setting.

BTW, if you want the game to be "settingless" like Sorcerer, that's fine. Just let us know. But, basically we need somewhere to jump off from. "Humanist" is just too little from which to begin. From that I can see anything from dowtrodden angsty moods, to lighthearted comedy and everything in between.

In fact, this is, in the end likely to come down to just some suggestions from which you're going to have to pick. Because these are really elemental decisions about the game. Really, people usually have a feel for these elements before starting off on their game.

Perhaps you could make mood selectable (like Sorcerer allows setting to be selectable)? If none is making itself feel obvious to you, then maybe make a game that can explor humanism in any mood.

Mike

Mike, IMO you're being unnecessarily difficult to Tobias, and drifting the thread to boot. Might be because you haven't got the same words he has, as I for one have no problem with his question and answering it. What he's looking for is not whether he should have dwarves (the "waffling over setting") or whether they should have beards (the "color"). He's looking for styles of presentation and writing that illustrate humanism, a philosophical idea. Take a look at my preliminary answer, which points him to the correct direction.

The color (the "style" as it'd be called in literature) of a humanist game is an interesting question, and it isn't nearly so fluid a matter as Mike seems to think. Philosophies have all kinds of strata associated with them (intertext, as it's so simply called), and the strongest color is gained by making use of those strata. Like, when doing a goth game, cultivated vampires are a good choice. When doing a humanist game, there are a number of elements that say "liberal", "free-thinking", "Socrates" and so on. Use them, and you have humanist color, entirely intependent from whether dwarves have beards.

To prove the point I'll continue my answer to Tobias and give some pointers that illustrate humanism as I understand it:

Humanism is generally either technology-optimistic or mystical. The former is usually argued in literature through celebration of human achievement. For a techop take write about the bravery and unbending backs of the humans who have taken the world as their toy. Soviet agitation is a real world example. Scifi, especially the military variety, is nearly always of this type. Techop humanism is usually concretely illustrated through heroes overcoming adversity thanks to their indomitable will (or failing while trying); you can include this either as background or as something that happens in-game. If I had to pick a single favourite english rendition of this ideal, it'd be Child of Fortune by Norman Spinrad; the protagonist, when faced with a choice between losing her individuality or life, chooses to preserve the former. Traveller had many of these themes.

Mystical humanism is a little rarer beast, and easily sidesteps into all kinds of theism. It can be defined by the idea that humanity is great because of it's transcendental quality; humanity is created/has been born as the saviors/sole purpose of the universe. A common example is Stranger in a Strange Land, in which humanity is revealed able to rise to the level of martians in their own way, without being destroyed as unfeasible or assimilated. Other examples include Doris Lessing in all works, but especially Shikasta, and E.E. "Doc" Smith in the Lensmen series. In real world this is advocated mainly by magical societies from freemasons to wicca. Mage: the Ascension is obviously strongly influenced.

Now, both of the above can live side by side quite easily, and if humanism is what rocks your boat (as it frequently does mine), go ahead and include both. Next, some common examples of stylistic techniques used in literature:

Shock effects: take a look at the works of Robert A. Heinlein; observe how he strips common assumptions by putting his protagonists up to irreligiousness, promiscuity, pedofilia and incest. Other writers include homosexuality and other vices to taste. By confronting common assumptions based on theist morals the writers jog the reader out of his "safe" frame of reference. The protagonist doing the things above is without fault a hero and irreducably human. What is left for the reader: either deny everything good the hero has done, or accept his basic humanity as the basis of all possible value systems. I'll break form and mention Rabelais here.

Heroism: Conan stories are humanist. They celebrate the achievements of a man who rises above others because of his natural virtue, not stemming from anything but his pure human nature. Likewise the early Dragonlance books; Raistlin is a hero of humanism, achieving impossible feats of will just because. Both are cases of demonstrating human possibility to triumph over all comers, and thus elevate them in spirit above the gods.

Transcendental climax: This is mainly common in the mystic variety of humanistic literature. It's also used by all kinds of theists. A transcendental climax is when a hero finds untapped potential within himself at the nick of time. The Claremont X-Men in the Phoenix storyline, as well as Harry Potter and any third grade fantasy literature are chock full of the theist variety. The humanist one is successfully depicted in LotR in various places, for example.

Psychologising evil: There is no evil as a transcendental idea, only as unwanted properties. Note how Tolkien (a very humanistic writer), Orwell, Asimov and most of the others persist in giving us perspective on their villains? The stories are about genuine philosophical differences or human frailties, not about good or evil in any prescribed moral sense.

Human possibility: This is the other side of the heroism coin; while you can elevate human through a single protagonist, it's usually more efficient if you can elevate whole nations and ways of life. The strongest humanist wibe comes from literature that demonstrates alternative ways of life, or utopias, to say it simply. Humanism in literature is about demonstrating (as is all literature in relation to philosophy) the possibilities of human. Examples of this in the genre medium chosen here are many works of Norman Spinrad (Russian Spring springs to mind) and Elfquest. Ayn Rand is a clear mainstream example.

There are more of these, but I don't know if it's entirely appropriate for me to hock the forum for literary analysis of American genre classics. Others can easily fill in what I've left out, if appropriate. And in any case, such "tricks of the trade" are not all you need.

Anyway, just plug the above and any other features you find in your own research into your material, and soon the game is brimming with resonances that almost anybody will interpret as humanist. We have a common cultural background, and certain kinds of themes will invariably mean the same things to us all.

I've picked my examples solely from American fiction, as readers here are rarely familiar with other bodies of work. As I'm a little rusty with my American classics (not to speak of mainstream, ugh), I've gone exclusively with genre literature. Someone else can probably point out the English/American classics that deal with humanism.

A couple of words about pure "style" as understood by writers. As I see it, you have a couple of ways to invoke humanist tradition in your text. You can either go for the hippie wibe (like Doris Lessing) or the unadorned straight prose common in American literature. It's unnecessary at this stage to try to creep on the issue like Tolkien does. So I suggest straight psychological exposition, historical archs made clear early and succintly, plain language spiced with low-key stylings and thinly veiled philosophy. The Lessing thing would be a little foggier, with lots of narrow character perspectives. You probably won't want that, especially as it requires more technique.

In fairness to all, I think I drifted the thread - and it's goal wasn't superclear either in post 1...

But recapping is of less use than going forward, so let me go forward.

Mike - At least, the thread's giving me a better insight into color, mood, and style - both from the definition angle, as from the design angle. My use of 'fantasy heartbreaker' might've been unfortunate. I meant that comment in a light-hearted way - as the mandatory fantasy system that everyone should get out of their system. My personal preferences on fantasy (which will come out in YGAD) tend to a more concealed, dreamt-of fairy-like world than the hardcore D&D 'pick a race and pick a class' aspect. Let me get back to YGAD setting after I reply to Eero:

Eero - That was absolutely a grade-A reply, from where I'm sitting. From that post I'm able to get a lot of useful hints for both YGAD and the more general purpose of designing games with exploration of humanism. A lot of the pointers you give are things I've heard of, thank goodness, but it's very good to have them applied to this current issue. For the remainer of this post (and this thread?), I'll focus on what these things mean to me and YGAD. But know that I'll keep this post for futher design influences on the general issue.

On the humanism issue I'm in the techno-optimistic camp myself (only because I'm too much of a scientific critic to immerse myself in the mysticism camp without reservations. I am investigating the apparently mystical side of humans as well, of course. ;) ). And after that, I'm not a shiny-bright-eyed-technology-will-make-it-all-beter techno-optimist. I think there are possibilities there, but humankind's going to need a lot of social changes first...

I don't mean to turn this into an expose of my person (PMs will do for that), but I mention this because it is my 'natural' style of presenting the issues present in (my) being a humanist. This directly influences my design style. In YGAD, I will not preach one of the extremes, but present several different communities/countries where several different variants of techno-optimism and mysticism will be present. Experimental forms of dealing with the new situation.

YGAD is a fantasy game with humanist issues... like The Foundation/Traveller is sci-fi with humanist issues. (In fact, there certainly are parallels.... in them, the Empire collapses and falls away, leaving stranded communities to work things out for themselves.) I don't want to 'scare' players into heavy philosophy - but basic concerns should be clear to them. I will probably have a more up-front "dealing with the issues" stance in later humanist game efforts. It's likely those will be more Narrative in style.

And basic concerns WILL be more effectively transmitted by a recognizable style, as Eero writes - and gives some good tips for (that the lord I recognize a bunch which are on the shelf at home - so I can have a look right away).

I had never really looked at schock effect in the works of Heinlein in that way... interesting... (it may (not) help that I read most of that stuff over 10 years ago)... I should look at it again. No problem having some shocking or psycholo-/philoso-villainous NPC walking around. Just focusing on their Value, Goal, and philosophy (without using jargon-laden terms in descriptions) will help a great deal.

So, to return to setting/color/mood/theme/style of YGAD (I'm purposefully lumping them to make it clear I don't want a dictionary definition argument about what's coming):

In YGAD the gods have died, and Rain Day (when their fragments rained down) has happened. Let me make it clear: the gods existed, and people knew it. You(r priest) could pray for a miracle, and it would sometimes happen (somewhat reliably, like early technology). The gods didn't manifest, or walk around with avatars, or drive flaming chariots around the sky, but those connecting to them could feel deep emotions or a kind of 'flow' (check out Csikszentmihaly for the flow I mean, if interested). So there was a sense of them, causality. As manifestations of certain (platonic?) ideals they mostly had the best interests of humankind at heart (just like people, generally) - and had tweaked a few paramaters of humankind - the most noticable one a lessened urge for lethal competition and a lowering of birth rate.

(Note: 'Evil' gods thus become an interesting thing to explore. (Dysfunctional Gods?) As well as communities which revel with abondon in the fact that their more primal natures (reptile brain) have been set free.)

Now, I had intended for a degree of social collapse following Rain Day, but didn't want to make it too heavy. Given the example of Foundation (and Traveller) though, and to make the collision between different interpretations of how to use the new-found freedom and power more clear, I think I'll have to increase the size of the wrench I toss into the works. More devastation. More severing of communications. Without going wholly apocalyptic.

There will be communities which are convinced that the gods were just (benignly parasitic?) expressions of a mystical quality inherent in humans anyway (both as suggested on these boards before, as well as influenced by my own experiences with Mage). These will strive for employing that mystical nature. There will be techop communities. There will be tyrant-driven communities.

And there will be fantasy. Hidden-behind-the-curtain fantsay. Phantoms out of the human mind fantasy. Dreams. And one cursed, strong dwarf, wandering the lands, with his beard of ever-shifting color and length. ;)

Now, in Foundation and in Traveller, I personally found the exploration of the humanist issues a bit too heavily-imposed for the mood I want in YGAD. So I'll have to be more subtle, then. Show more exponents/proponents of certain viewpoints/society lifestyles WITHOUT using the philosophical labels. Make it recognizable without pushing people's noses right into it. Maybe this requires more technique, like the Lessing style would do, but with YGAD I'm not looking for philosophical completeness. I just hope I'm up to the challenge.

[edit: spelling]