Hello,
I'm trying to decide if I should include a penalty for using a weapon in your off hand (usually left).

Currently I'm using a -25% penalty to hit with a weapon used in your off hand.

Also, I have a penalty to parry strikes from a left-handed opponent because of a person's unfamiliarity against them. This also applies to lefties against lefties. If you acquire a fighting style Left-handed Opponents, the penalty is negated.

I also have a fighting style called, Two-weapons which enable a person to use a weapon in each hand. A person may attack with both at the same time, but I'm not sure if I should apply the penalty for using the off handed weapon because the person is trained in this fighting style.....

Any thoughts?

Well, what "total effect" do you want?
Be specific in terms of gritty v. cinematic and detailed v. abstract. I think those two make a good set of axes for describing your goal. From what you've written, you seem to want a detailed system, though I can't tell if you want realism or wuxia stunts.

-Daniel Vince

Certainly, a penalty for using your off-hand without any kind of special training is a must. I 100% support that idea...it just makes sense!

As far as including a penalty for parrying attacks from the off-hand, I suppose the best way to answer your question is with another question--is the added realism worth adding an extra mechanic, or will it make your list of things to remember too big? In addition, what if someone is attacking with their off hand at a penalty--would this added "awkwardness" negate a penalty to parry an off-handed attack? I suppose the answers to these questions depend entirely on your personal G/N/S stance.

In regards to two-weapon fighting, I would be in support of squashing the off-hand penalty if you have this merit. Why? Well, I look at it this way...when I play video games, I'm using my left hand to maneuver my character most of the time. I've been playing video games long enough so that this doesn't feel uncomfortable or unnatural--in essence, I have no "Off-Hand Penalty" to make Super Mario sally forth. =-) This doesn't necessarily make me ambidextrous--it just means that I have enough experience and training to use my left hand comfortably for this task.

Therefore, if someone is trained and skilled at Two-Weapon fighting, then presumably they've been practicing using that off-hand effectively in a combat situation. So, unless it helps to better balance your gameplay, you may not necessarily need to penalize characters for using their off-hand if they have that particular training.

CHRIS M.-

P.S. In case I forget, thank you for all your input on "The Business"--that game is developing nicely.

I think I tend to agree with Sledgeman.

Traditionally when you are taught a "Style" whether it be two weapons, weapon and shield, one weapon, hand to hand, whateer, training in the use of both hands (assuming you have two ) is part of the process. It happens in martial arts, it happens in football (we learned to block from left and right side etc) and in many other physical pursuits (including video games :) )

In fact, to take it a step further, I would venture to say that an untrained person would suffer penalties to BOTH hands if he she picked up two weapons and tried to fight with them...oddly considering that so many of their rules defy reality, the D20 systems gets that right.

As for suffering penalties for fighting lefties, that is IMO strictly an earth - Human thing. Certainly one could use it however they wish but just because Terrans (ie Humans from Earth) are predominantly right handed is not garuntee that that all Humans / humanoid species are predominantly right handed.


Sean

I'm with Argetlamh. Until we know what you're trying to achieve, we're going to form our answers through the lens of what we would find important about the question of off-handed fighting.

So, from my fairly Narrativist/Princess-Bride viewpoint: Off-handed fighting should not have a result that is identical to a less-skilled opponent fighting with their good hand. It should permit a skilled character to dig themselves into a pit of combat trouble, but then to vault right back out of that pit the moment they decide to go back to using their primary hand.

Such a system will allow people to pursue fighting off-handed (for any of a variety of reasons from arrogance to holding something precious in their better hand) while encouraging them to evolve the combat at a later point by switching hands.

If anything, I hope that this response will encourage you to tell us what you're aiming for from the system... this probably isn't it, but I might get lucky.

Here is how I'll do it:

There are many fighting styles in my game (you can purchase them for 5 skill points).

"Two Weapon" style will allow a person to use both weapons in what is called a "Dual Attack" without any penalty to the off handed weapon.

Conversly, when a person tries to use a weapon in their off hand, they will suffer a penalty to hit of -25%. This can be eliminated by purchasing the fighting style "Ambidextrous."

"Left Handed Opponent" fighting style will negate the penalty that is applied when trying to parry an attack from a leftie (-25%).

This is interesting....
So a person that is using two weapons decides to use an "Attack & Parry" maneuver.... this will allow them to make an attack and then reserve a parry in case they are attacked. Assuming they miss, if their opponent attacks, they could parry the attack with their main weapon, or their off handed weapon with a penalty.

So what would happen if the person attacked, and broke his sword? If he wanted to parry the incoming attack, he would have to use his off handed weapon to parry at a -25% penalty.

Do you think the penalty should apply while parrying with the off handed weapon if they are using the fighting style Two Weapons?

The main advantage of the Two Weapon fighting style is so that you can use the maneuver called, Dual Attack.
This is a simultaneous attack from two swords.... only one can be parried by the defender.

Now I'm thinking that if they had the fighting style Two Weapons, they would be able to parry with either weapon without a penalty.

So would they have to also buy Ambidexterity?....


hmmm.... interesting.


Incidentally, for those of you who are familiar with sword fighting..........do you know how they get those swords to spark when they hit?
Swords are always sparking when they hit in the movies.

:)

Swords spark when chunks are knocked off at high impact. Because stage swords are (essentially) pot metal, it's very easy to knock chunks off. In real life each time your sword sparks it has gained a nasty nick that you're going to have to polish out eventually.

Swords spark when chunks are knocked off at high impact.

My penny's worth.....

Regarding the swords and sparking.... in a lot of the old swash-bucklers with people like Flynn, the swords actually had electricity running through them, and the contact resulted in the sparks, (incedentally, it also resulted in several stars of the day receiving burnt hands!).

You want to distinguish between off-hand and lead hand.... fair enough... you have several key ideas to help convey it.... yet here some ideas for you....
***you have to make a distinction as to whether people have a lead/off hand at character creation. This includes different species/races/cultures, and will help clarify whther certain characters are exempt from it, (NOTE:- Multi limbed species may make this more taxing... 2 off hands, or naturally ambidextrous, or have one weak, one strong and two normal etc.?). You should also make it clear which is the stong/weak/normal? hand. Left -handers still have an off-hand, there right one... some people seem to forget that part of it! Further, a left-hander against a left-hander may not necessarilly be at a disadvantage... nor a right-hander... depends on training!
***if you have a modifier for using an off-hand, all well and good. If you have a trait/skill/ability for multiple weapons, great. If you have a skill/trait/ability for being ambidextrous, even better! Yet why should being ambidextrsou and having multiple weapons equate?
If you are ambidextrous, then you never suffer the off-hand penalty, be it fighting, writing, catching, or any other such task. If you have an off-hand and have multiple weapons, then the bonus is negated for fighting only, tasks such as catching etc. should still receive a penalty, just to be fair! Further, if you have both multiple weapons and ambidexterity, then maybe a bonus modifier representing perfect cordination should be included?


As a side note/question.... multiple weapons/dual weapons etc....... why does it have to be two attacks at the same time? In most cases, (TMK), dual weapons make consecutive attacks, one after the other... most often being a feint and then an attack, or a ligth move followed through with a heavier, more effective attack. Same goes for using them defensively... you can defend and attack simultaneous or alternatively.
The real advantage to multiple weapons is in the fact that you have a second object or mode of combat that can be employed, offering a higher chance of hitting/blocking your opponent, and also that you have no "open" side to be attacked from, (as is the case with fighting a Left-hander!).


Hope that lot helps!

hmmm.... interesting.

Thanks for all the ideas guys! :)

Tossing in my severely limited experience with swordplay...

Two simultaneous attacks only generates a "can only block one" situation if they are coming from opposite directions. Due to human anatomy, it is difficult to strike with any kind of force when you are also striking from the other side (you are not able to use torso rotation to strengthen the strike).

Having two weapons is extremely useful in simultaneous block/strike situations. You are able to move and keep your opponent's weapon out of line and still have a weapon to strike with.

If you are trained to use a one handed weapon, holding a light second weapon in the off hand is almost never a disadvantage. Even if you don't know how to use it effectively it should not hinder you, and even someone without training can utilize a second weapon if the right oppurtunity is there.

I don't know your resolution mechanic, but -25% for off-hand use seems awfully low. Most martial training is about muscle memory. If you wield a weapon in your off-hand you may know the moves, but your body can not execute many (if any) of them properly.

I don't know if any of that is useful to you or not, i hope so.

Thomas

LordSmerf wrote: Two simultaneous attacks only generates a "can only block one" situation if they are coming from opposite directions. Due to human anatomy, it is difficult to strike with any kind of force when you are also striking from the other side (you are not able to use torso rotation to strengthen the strike).

Thats what a dual attack in my game is. An attack from opposite directions with two weapons.

Years ago someone in the SCA told me about it.

It's nice to hear why it works tho.

For offhanded use, you think -25% is too low, eh?

I'm a juggler and know what you mean about muscle memory.

To learn a new juggling trick, it is just like starting over, since your muscles haven't learned the new way you want to throw the balls.

hmmm....

One more note on a weapon in each hand...

I've found two advantages (and they can be signifigant) for a weapon in each hand:

1. Blocking Strike, an offensive move where you move to strike with one weapon (i tend to use my off-hand personally) and prevent your enemy from doing anything about it with the other (essentially block his weapon out of line on your way in).

2. Much faster rate of attack. You can strike with one weapon while getting the other in to position to strike. Alternatively, as has been mentioned, feint or weak strike with one weapon and kill with the other when they move to block...

Thomas

Interesting discussion.

My two bits require a bit of background: I have been a stunt man / stage combatant for about 10 years and have worked extensively with blades of all types. I also taught a number of stick and blade techniques for self defense. Of course, all that and a token might get me on the subway. ;)

Sparking: Most of the time, the spark is caused by a chemical coating. Real life swords only spark if something has gone terribly wrong (as was said earlier, it means a chunk has come off). The first stage troupe I was with did fights with pretty significant edge to edge contact, and we got sparks...but we also spent a lot of time filing the burrs from our blades.

Off handed use: Off handed fighting is hard. Very hard. And depending on how difficult the task it can be exponentially more difficult than your primary. Swinging a stick isn't such a big deal, but swinging it to find that opening in your opponent's defense can be. Surprisingly, one of the toughest things when swinging a sword off handed is making the edge strike true and following through. Pistols, or rifles, are even harder yet as you not only are dealing with your non-dextrous hand but you also generally have to combat a domiant eye issue. Thus, I am unquestionably in favor of a significant penalty.

That being said, dual wielding is only a problem when you actually try to use both actively. Any schmoe can hold a dagger, or even a second sword, in their off hand and occassionally block an errant shot or make an attack with it...however, doing it actively and consistantly is a whole 'nother story. True dual handed fighting, like what you'd see in arnis, kali, or with a case of rapiers, is unquestionably a training required art and is not easy to master. It is totally appropriate for there to be a penalty on both weapons without special training.

Left handed opponent: If this is something you're really intent on, great, but honestly I wouldn't. Firstly, this is almost exclusively a fencing issue (most other forms of combat, such as unarmed or "square stanced" styles like escrima aren't affected by them at all). Secondly, the "advantage" of left hander's is actually more attributable to inexperience or laziness of their opponents than anything else. A left handed shot isn't more difficult to parry or avoid, it's just something people aren't paying attention to. Thus, I think penalizing the typical fighter for an assumed defect would be less effective than offering it to them as an opptional flaw.

My very long two bits.

Well, now I'm going to have to make some changes...

Perhaps a -50% for off handed use without training? What do you think?



In my game, I have what I call "Complex Attacks." These are where you do something beyond a normal strike with a single weapon.

Well, to prevent players from "raping the sytsem" and doing something more involved every turn, I created a rule that says that if you perform a complex attack, you will not be able to attack next round......

ok, fine.... but now that you say that two weapon style allows you to make atacks more quickly..... hmmm.... I had called a dual attack a complex attack.... but I think now I'm going to change it. I've been thinking about this for a long time. Now I know I have to change it.

I guess I was mixing up the regular fighting rules with different fighting styles..

A "blocking strike" as you say is what I call, "Pin Weapon and Strike" so I've got it covered. :) thx for mentioning it tho. I also have a maneuver called, "Hook Shield and Strike." What do you think?



The person that told me about lefties being more difficult to parry was refering to medieval combat, not rapiers... hmm...

How should I simulate a fighter's "laziness" while fighting lefties?
I don't have a system of "flaws" so I may keep the penalty to parry attacks from lefties unless you buy a "skill" of watching out for it.... I guess this can cover the laziness factor you were mentioning....


I guess I've opened up a can of worms....
I thought my fighting styles part of my game was finished.... perhaps it needs some tweaking.
I may make different fighting styles (two weapons, single weapon, weapon & shield, polearms, flails, ambidextrous, lefties) a bit more "expensive" to buy.
I may also go into more detail into what they are and give more bonuses when using a particular style and more penalties when not.
I've included ambidextrous and lefties as a "style" but maybe I should call them something else?


Incidentally GregS, a friend of mine, Kam Yuen was the technical advisor to the original Kung Fu series. He's a really cool guy. :)
Where do you do your stunt work?
I'm really glad to get your perspective on this.
My friend specializes in asian stuff and my game is set in europe.


thx for all the info everyone! This is very interesting. :)

Perhaps instead of an off-hand penalty, use an off-hand cap.

Fighting with your off-hand without special training uses your weapon skill or 20% whichever is lower.

Essentially, no matter how good you are with one hand it can only add to tacitcal planning for the off-hand. Without the muscle memory all you can say is "I should parry and riposte" you can't actually do it very well...

Is your goal to realistically show combat or to be cool? If it's the former i recomend a close look at The Riddle of Steel and if it's the latter, who cares about perfect precision? Have a double strike and all the rest...

Thomas

I definately agree with Smerf. The problem with trying to make a game overly realistic is that, as odd as this sounds, combat reality is very subjective. How one person, even as a trained professional, behaves in a situation is inherently unique and individual...so trying to apply sweeping modifiers to theoretical situations may just not be worth the effort.

For me, I like to keep combat basic and let the gamers apply the level of reality they want. Heck, if you look around the net, you'll see people who actually believe armor is too heavy to walk in, that broadswords weigh 15 pounds, and that katanas can cut through a Buick. ;)

Thus, I go back to the suggestion of optional rules, flaws, whatever you'd like to include, but I wouldn't encourage you to saddle your players with rules they may not want to implement. For me, being the combat nut I am, I took all the stuff I really wanted to include in my game but didn't think the "average" gamer would want to use (recoil, penatration, off handed penalties, etc.) and put it all under an optional rules heading.

Finally, as for me as a "professional", I mostly work out of the Seattle area, and until the last couple of years was active with a few different groups, on indie flicks, and did occassional work in LA and Oregon. If you need help on European stuff I'd be happy to lend my two bits in. PM me and we'll talk more about it. And that goes for anyone on the lists as well. We (Game Monkeys) actually have a very impressive "team" that pools knoweldge to help people who need consulting. Check out http://www.gmpress.com and click on Stunt Monkeys, or PM me for more info.

OK, first, if you haven't already, see the discussions in the TROS forum on this subject.

Second, to cover some of the more important notes: People have noted that when you train, you train in only one hand of use. That is, let's say that you train with a rapier - you train either right or left handed. If you add a main gauche, then you train with that in the other hand. If you reverse this process, it's almost as though you'd never trained at all. Not quite, but almost. That is, there are some elements of the training that may transfer over, but for the most part it's like starting from scratch again.

Now, for some skills, you train both ways. For example, as stated before, football blocks. But this is the exception rather than the rule, and almost never the case with something like swordsmanship where you get to pick normally which side to use. People pick their dominant side, and then stick with it. They rarely, if ever, train with the other hand. Again, for two weapon styles that means that, unless they're the same weapon, you only learn how to use the one weapon in one hand, and the other in the other.

For some skills, you practice the "off" side for certain circumstances, but never learn it as well as the other side. For instance, I practiced hard to learn to do left handed layups. I'm not bad, but certainly not as good as right handed. But I had to specifically practice left-handed layups to learn to do them - no amount of right-haded layups really help at all.

Yes, mental knowledge helps a tiny bit, but since the vast majority of this is a matter of muscle memory, again, it's nearly like starting over. So, first thing is to reduce any bonus from skill to very small. In fact, reducing the skill bonus to zero isn't out of line. If you want more realisim, deop it by 90%. Thus, if your bonus (apologies, I'm unaware of how your actual system works) from Dex is 20%, and your bonus from skill is 60% for a total of 80%, then I'd reduce the 60% down to 6% for a total of 26%.

Now, that said, I'd also reduce the Dex bonus some. That is, you really only have your full Dex in your dominant hand (this could be represented as a bonus, I suppose). So, in the example, I might cut the Dex down by 10% to 10% making the total 16%.

Ambidexterity merely means that you don't have this Dex penalty. Thus, the difference between two right handed swordsmen one who is ambidexterous, and one who is not, in terms of off hand use, would be 16% to 26%. Significant, but nothing like the difference between being ambidexterous and being trained in the left hand, which would be 70% - 10% Dex, plus 60% skill.

I know this is accurate. I have an ambidexterous brother. What ambideterity means for him is that he tends to learn any ability with whatever hand. He writes with his right hand, and throws fribee with his left. He bats lefty, because he decided to learn this way when he learned that it was advantageous to be a lefty batter. Etc. This doesn't mean that he can wirte with his left hand. Rather, he can, but it's as messy as if he'd never practiced at all with his right.

And none of this, BTW, means that anybody can attack more quickly than anyone else. No matter how many weapons you have in your hands your co-ordination will only allow so much. Yes, you can make "Dual Attacks" and such, and these are an advantage - but they are merely an expression of your skill with the weapons. Again, see TROS.

Mike

Hello,
Yes that has been my experience with juggling too.

When you try a new trick, it is like starting over, since your muscles haven't learned how to throw the balls in the new way.