I tried running Sorcerer a couple of times, once with Humanity as Identity, once with Humanity as Empathy; and I was a little disappointed each time. The mechanics flowed nicely, but the intensity so many people described was missing. Despite my discouragement, I was drawn back to the game like a moth to the flame, certain that a kick-ass experience awaited me.

So I organized a one-shot, with Humanity as Hope. It clicked, immediately and immensely. My players are demanding more, and they're going to get it.

So I'm interested, has anyone else experienced a particular Humanity definition that worked extra-well for them, and what was that definition? What was it about that definition that had it resonate for you?

I should really answer these myself, first.

The resonance Hope had for me was the bind it put the players in: Hope-increasing actions usually involved puting their faith in not-necessarily reliable NPCs, thus increasing their vulnerability. Behaving in a sensibly paranoid fashion cut them off from the things that buffered Hope and sent them spiralling towards Despair. By removing any 'safe' path, the players were free from the constraint of trying to walk it, and instead choose which risks they wanted to try.

Yay! Thanks for telling about the success story.

One lesson I've taken away from so many different game-experiences with Sorcerer is very hard: (a) Humanity needs definition, but (b) Humanity should be broad.

And how that's achieved is pretty various.

Take my necromancy game - Humanity is harmed mainly by failing to "let your dead go." Sounds specific, right? Until you realize that it can apply to practically any emotionally-powerful human interaction, and also that the emotions can be terribly negative or terribly positive.

Yet our Demon Cops game was based on the player-characters-only Humanity concept of being a "good cop" - one who walked the line of justice and legalities, becoming neither an automaton with a badge nor a vigilante. Now that's specific. But since the "crime of the week" model gave us lots to work with, the very specificity provided neat case-studies for many different scenarios.

Best,
Ron

I love that "hope" definition. Its perfect for introducing gamer-types to Sorcerer because its basically a big hammer to smash all of that "turtling/defensive/cynical/trust no one" habit built up by a gaming career full of betrayals and "plot twists".

Play like you know you're about to be screwed and your humanity drops like a rock.

I think that's a particularly effective "ice breaker" humanity definition.

Actually, hope is the Humanity definition for the Dictionary of Mu mini-supplement I've been working on.

I've been digging the plural definitions lately, the ones where situations happen where you can be making a Humanity gain and Humanity loss roll in one action.

When I'm trying to explain how Humanity works I usually say that if Sorcerer was set in Edo period Japan and Demons were oni, spirits and restless ancestors, Humanity would probably be some kind of idealized version of Samurai honor.

I think Humanity in Edo period Japan would be a combination of Honor and Face. Which helps explain why so many Samurai stories end so badly.

angelfromanotherpin wrote: I think Humanity in Edo period Japan would be a combination of Honor and Face. Which helps explain why so many Samurai stories end so badly.

angelfromanotherpin:

I think Humanity in Edo period Japan would be a combination of Honor and Face. Which helps explain why so many samurai stories end so badly.

Afterthought: Apologies if I am abusing the subject of this thread - please feel free to move the post to a new thread if I am.

Like Paka, I've really enjoyed the games I've been running with dual Humanity definitions. The single-level definitions are cool and certainly work (as in Bibliophage's 'empathy for fellow humans'), but it's easy to end up with characters who are always a bit slimy or darkened, because there's this single track of Humanity... when they do something that potentially drops Humanity, it's usually because they chose some other Thing over their own Humanity... result... kinda slimy.

The dual definitions often make this a much trickier wicket -- the example I'm going to use is from the excellent Grade School Sorcerer's setup, in which Humanity is dual defined as (1) being a good kid and (2) staying true to the Make Believe/Imagination.

These two things aren't in direct conflict (nor should they be: it falls to the demons to be in direct conflict with Humanity), but it's often difficult to reconcile the two when it comes time to make a decision: "I told Mom I'd go to school and take the lunch money check to the principle, but I also promised to go to the Old Forest and help save the Mouse King and his Court... ugh!" In that kind of Humanity arrangement, it seems easier to make characters who are running on quite low Humanity who are at the same time really trying to Do the Right Thing. (The two Grade School games I'm running average Humanity scores around 2 or 3 right now, while Bibliophage has much more morally-flexible people with Humanity around 4 or 5.)

So... what's my favorite Humanity definitions? I'd say that I'm currently most jazzed about dual definitions that aren't in direct opposition (I don't know that that would even make sense), but are frequently going to result in scenes where meeting both requirements is very challenging.

KingOfFarPoint wrote: angelfromanotherpin:

Can anyone provide the Japanese term for Face?

Menboku.

I think that the classic Japanese conflict is actually between giri and ninjoo(human feelings). Could Sorcerer do it that way?

Hello,

Best way to do the classical feudal-Japanese thing is like this:

Passion = hate, love, ambition, kindness, pity, etc

Obligation (Duty) = family, lord/job, culture/people as a whole

Face = reputation, appearance, "cool"

Now for the nasty part: although all of these are, cumulatively, "Honor," every one of them can lead to Humanity loss or gain.

Is this, then, triple Humanity rather than dual? No. The Humanity loss or gain has to do with one thing, and one thing only: human suffering. More suffering = potential for lost Humanity. "One person's grief is our collective loss."

So the Honor thing is not, itself, Humanity - it's the triple arena in which suffering may be alleviated or increased.

You can see why, I hope, that (classically speaking) suicide would in some cases be Humanity-increasing in these stories.

Best,
Ron

Valamir wrote: I love that "hope" definition. Its perfect for introducing gamer-types to Sorcerer because its basically a big hammer to smash all of that "turtling/defensive/cynical/trust no one" habit built up by a gaming career full of betrayals and "plot twists".

Play like you know you're about to be screwed and your humanity drops like a rock.

I think that's a particularly effective "ice breaker" humanity definition.