Well I htink I have good, solid base for my ranged weapons and damage tracking in SSL. I've thrown together a quick PDF with what I'm thinking is pretty much going to be my core system (in terms of damage modeling/tracking).

I'm also changing some of the back story; ranged weapons will be included but only in a "rifle' or "hand held" form. The weapons frame will still be a retro-fit affair. And all machnes will start on the same footing but since the are semi-living machines they will evolve to grow stonger. Stronger in the form of more redundancy for internal systems, larger lifting capacities etc. but this will be "one or the other" growth spurts. Still working this idea out, so ...

Anyway here's the PDF with the "penetration" model mechanics. http://www.freepress.multiservers.com/mechanics.pdf

pilot602 wrote: I've thrown together a quick PDF with what I'm thinking is pretty much going to be my core system (in terms of damage modeling/tracking).

pilot602 wrote: all machnes will start on the same footing but since the are semi-living machines they will evolve to grow stonger. Stronger in the form of more redundancy for internal systems, larger lifting capacities etc. but this will be "one or the other" growth spurts. Still working this idea out, so ...

Frankly, what you've written was a little confusing to me, although that could just be the sleep deprivation speaking (man, my little girl can SCREAM). And there's more math than I'd like -- especially the divide by two thing -- and it's sometimes counterintuitive -- why are higher skill levels worse, exactly?

pilot602 wrote: I don't know what you mean by "why are higher skill levels worse, exactly?" - they're not.

pilot602 wrote: it'll be a rare thing that different evolutioned SSMs will be fighting each other for very long periods of time - mainly because if a weapon is of a lower grade than the armor it's trying to hit it simply will not do any damage and thus the machine weilding said weapon is, now, just a walking target for the more powerful machine.

I use a "reverse" level system. 20 is the lowest and 0 represents the most advanced player.

Here's a re-work of the last page of the pdf.:

Targeting
SSM are highly advanced and developed machines. They are also alive at some unknown, base level and as such it has been discovered they are innately aware of other SSMs near them. This has eliminated the need for various forms of radar when dealing with the tactics of targeting an opposing SSM. This awareness also means that for the most part every shot fired will generally land on or very near the target.
To determine where a shot lands on a target a player will use one of the four targeting location maps. Unless a machine is reduced in capacity the “standard capacity map” will be used.
A player, once use of the appropriate target map has been established, will simply roll (1)d20 with the goal of trying to match a location on the given target map.

Penetration
When a location is determined the attacking player must then determine if the shot penetrates that location on the the defending player. This is accomplished in two steps.

Step one: Grade comparison -
First a comparison must be made between the grade of weapon and grade of armor. There are three possible scenarios for this comparison.

Equal - both the attacking weapon and the defending armor are of the same grade. In this instance the given armor protection rating will be the modifier to beat on the penetration roll.
(i.e. weapon grade 1 attacks armor grade 1 - with a protection rating of 12 - the penetration roll must then be higher than 12)

Higher weapon - the weapon is of a higher grade than the defending armor. In this instance, the difference between the grade of weapon and grade of armor is added to the number rolled on the penetration roll.
(i.e. weapon grade 2 attacks armor grade 1 - with a protection rating of 12 - the penetration roll must then be higher than 12 but a modifier of 1 is added to the face value of the penetration roll)

Higher armor - the defending armor is of a higher grade than the attacking weapon. In this instance the difference between the armor grade and the weapon grade is added to the protection rating and this new value becomes the modifier to beat on the penetration roll.
(i.e. weapon grade 1 attacks armor grade 2 - with a protection rating of 12 - the penetration roll must then be higher than 12 but a modifier of 1 is added to the face value of the protection value making it now a 13 that must be beaten upon the penetration roll)

Step two: Penetration roll -
After the appropriate modifiers have been determined the penetration roll itself occurs. The attacking player will roll (1)d20 with the goal of beating the protection number (and it’s applicable modifiers). If the roll comes up higher than the protection value that location is penetrated. Each time a given location is successfully penetrated it’s protection value is lowered by one point until such time there is no armor protection value left.
If the penetration roll equals, or is less than, the given protection value the location is not penetrated. If a location is not successfully penetrated it’s protection rating remains unchanged.

Internal Damage
Once a location is penetrated the defending player must determine what, if any, of the internal systems have been damaged or destroyed. This is accomplished through the redundancy roll. The defending player is tasked with this roll because from the vantage point of the attacker it’s very unlikely that he or she will know anything more than if their shot hit and or penetrated the target - nor would they really care as an attacker will simply keep firing/attacking until the defending player is dead.
In any case, once a location is penetrated a number of rolls must be performed to determine if an internal system has been damaged or destroyed. To determine the number of rolls the defending player subtracts the protection value of the penetrated location from the number rolled by the attacking player. This new number is the number of redundancy rolls the defending player must make.
(i.e. the attacking player rolls a 20 whilst trying to penetrate a location with a protection level of 12. The difference of 8 is the number of rolls the defending player will make)
The defending player rolls and if any of the redundancy rolls match a system located in that area that system is considered destroyed or damaged (depending on the evolution of the machine).

Play sequence
The attacking player moves into a range that his Grade 1 Ionic Rifle may be used.
The attacking player makes a location roll, rolls a 10, and thus strikes the Torso of the defending player.
The Attacking player then determines that the armor on the torso of the defending player is Grade 1 and has a protection level of 12. The attacking player makes a penetration roll, rolls a 14, and thus the torso of the defending player is penetrated.
The defending player marks one protection point off the penetration diagram for the torso, leaving the torso with a protection level of 11 and then determines the redundancy roll.
The defending player subtracts the original protection level of 12 from the penetration roll value of 14 and determines that he must make two redundancy rolls.
The defending player rolls for redundancy and rolls a 6 and a 18. Looking at the systems configuration diagram location 6 is the cockpit and 18 is empty. The cockpit is destroyed and the pilot is ejected from the SSM. The defending player is taken out of the game.

After writing this it seems a little too complex for my tastes - I'll be running a few test runs of this tonight. So, don't be too surprised if I change it again to streamline the process somehow.

Yeah ... it is too complex and hard to work with "evolutions" (i.e. "growing" stronger weapons/armor) plus it was lacking any kind of way to introduce different types of weapons.

So, for the time being I'm thinking of dropping the math to determine the redundacny rolls (penetration roll - protection level) and simply tie it to the type of weapon. So, an energy weapon would cause three rolls, ballistic four rolls and missile two rolls (the trade off is range).

I'm also toying with the idea of tying weapon strength and armor stopping capacity to the evolution events. I.E. one of the things that can get stronger is the wepaons and or armor. I'm also toying with the idea of making the evolution a random event (a table with 20 things that can be enhanced and the player rolls).

Dunno ... I htink I like the idea of the fixed redundancy checks based on weapon type.

Just gotta keep grinding away it this. I'm tryingto be as different from the "standard" conventions of wargaming/rpg'ing and be interesting and simple. It's harder to accomplish than one might think! lol

I like the idea of a random evolution type. You could also make a "feat" or super power or something for your character that would allow him to modify somehow the result of that roll. Just trying to figure out some ways to tie the characters in to the big robots a bit more.

Evolutions

Notice: From Seven Systems Factories
To: All SEEDling factories, SSM operators and pilots
Re: New SSM discovery;
*** urgent ***

It is widely known, and somewhat accepted, that Seven Systems Machines (SSMs) are semi-organic, semi-living machines. Regardless of your personal beliefs it has been discovered by our leading researchers here at the Factories that the machines have yet another fascinating quirk.

The first batch of test machines have undergone self induced transformations, at regular intervals, wherein each machine has actually grown stronger and or phsyically changed its shape in some manner. While the process seems to happen at regular intervals the results seem completely random. Our researchers are calling these changes "evolution events."

Each time an SSM undergoes an "evolution event" two, random systems or components grow in strength or capacity. Our lead test pilot has reported that through a deep form of meditation he has been able to control, only once, one of the two "upgrades." We will investigate this claim and make our findings known.

In the meantime do not be alarmed when your SSMs start undergoing these changes.

Joeseph O. Rathbrof,
President
Seven Systems Factories, ISC.

evolution mechanics
Each SSM undergoes a self-induced and random "upgrade" event every five missions. The machines seem to feed off the energy and knowledge gained in battle and respond to this stimulus by growing stronger.

Players will model this event by rolling (1)d20 against a table of upgrades to determine their "evolution effect."
(i.e. effect one is double cockpit strength, effect two is one layer of skeletal frame redundancy, effect three is one point of prtoection value to all armor, etc.)

Players who have a pilot of Level Zero (the highest level a player's pilot may achieve) may earn points in different meditation styles; one of which is "evolution control. " Once a player has earned this meditation style a player will control his or her own machines evolution event and as such one of the two upgrades then becomes player's choice. The other upgrade is still chosen randomly.

evolution cycles
Every ten evolutions an SSM takes on a completely new form and is refered to by a given title. The first "cycle" of ten evolutions is refered to as a "Genesith" machine.

Title examples:
1) Genesith
2) Apokalupsis
3) Epiphaneia
4) Barritus
5) Ensis
6) Bserker
...


After each new evolution cycle is achieved all armor protection ratings of the machine's armor is returned to the base numeric value of 10. If one were to calculate the actual numeric value of a Genesith machine, as compared to a newly built machine it's armor protection would be 30 - assuming no evolution effects had upgraded the armor in the 10 evolutions between newly built and Genesith.

Machines of equal cycle may harm each other. All machines may harm machines of a lower cycle. A lower cycle machine may harm a higher cycle machine but only through the use of special moves and doing so, while not impossible, will be very hard to accomplish.


Damage Modeling

targeting
SSM are highly advanced and developed machines. They are also alive at some unknown, base level and as such it has been discovered they are innately aware of other SSMs near them. This has eliminated the need for various forms of radar when dealing with the tactics of targeting an opposing SSM. This awareness also means that for the most part every shot fired will generally land on or very near the target.
To determine where a shot lands on a target a player will use one of the four targeting location maps. Unless a machine is reduced in capacity the “standard capacity map” will be used.
A player, once use of the appropriate target map has been established, will simply roll (1)d20 with the goal of trying to match a location on the given target map.

penetration
When a location is determined the attacking player must then determine if the shot penetrates that location on the the defending player. This is accomplished by making a penetration roll. A penetration roll is only valid, however, for machines within the same evolution cycle.

After it has been determined that the two SSMs are within the same evolution cycle the penetration roll itself occurs. The attacking player will roll (1)d20 with the goal of beating the protection number of the given location determined by the targeting roll. If the roll comes up equal to or higher than the protection value, that location is penetrated. Each time a given location is successfully penetrated it’s protection value is lowered by one point until such time there is no armor protection value left.
If the penetration roll equals, or is less than, the given protection value the location is not penetrated. If a location is not successfully penetrated it’s protection rating remains unchanged.

Once a location's armor is rendered useless any opposing SSM, regardless evolution cycle, may damage that location. In this instance a targeting roll is still performed, if the bare location is rolled the penetration roll is skipped and the defending player rolls the appropriate redunancy check.

internal damage
Once a location is penetrated the defending player must determine what, if any, of the internal systems have been damaged or destroyed. This is accomplished through the redundancy roll. The defending player is tasked with this roll because from the vantage point of the attacker it’s very unlikely that he or she will know anything more than if their shot hit and or penetrated the target - nor would they really care as an attacker will simply keep firing/attacking until the defending player is dead.

In any case, once a location is penetrated a given number of rolls must be performed to determine if an internal system has been damaged or destroyed. The weapon type/strength determines the number of redundacny rolls performed; base energy weapons require three rolls, base ballistic weapons require four rolls and base missile weapons require two rolls. The trade off between the systems comes in the form of range.
(i.e. the attacking player rolls a 20 whilst trying to penetrate a location - protection level of 12 - with a base level energy weapon. 20 is larger than 12 so the weapon penetrates. The weapon is an energy weapon so the defending player rolls three redundancy checks)
The defending player rolls and if any of the redundancy rolls match a system located in that area that system is considered destroyed or damaged (depending on the evolution of the machine).

play sequence
The attacking player determines his proposed target is within the same evolution cycle as his own machine.
The attacking player moves into a range that his base Ionic Rifle may be used.
The attacking player makes a location roll, rolls a 10, and thus strikes the Torso of the defending player.
The Attacking player then determines that the armor on the torso of the defending player is has a protection level of 12. The attacking player makes a penetration roll, rolls a 14, and thus the torso of the defending player is penetrated.
The defending player marks one protection point off the penetration diagram for the torso, leaving the torso with a protection level of 11 and then determines the redundancy roll.
The defending player knows he was hit by an energy weapon so three redundancy rolls must be made.
The defending player rolls for redundancy and rolls a 6, 10 and an 18. Looking at the systems configuration diagram location 6 is the cockpit, and 10 and 18 are empty. The cockpit is destroyed and the pilot is ejected from the SSM. The defending player is taken out of the game.

I like the idea of meditations. It sticks with the cool Japanese, eastern theme you have going.

Some degree of randomness in the evolution is indeed cool -- it gives players the feel that they really are dealing with an alien entity not entirely under their control. (Sorcerer campaign setting, anyone?) But I'd make it possible for characters to have some influence over the evolution process before they reach Skill Level Zero -- maybe roll over your skill to meditate successfully and get to choose one component? -- because if it's too random, it becomes frustrating.

E.g. I'm trying for a fast-moving fighting style, I choose all my special maneuvers to "sting like a butterfly, float like a bee," and then all my evolution rolls start coming up "more armor, more armor, more armor": Well, that character concept just got shot to hell by the dice. You're genuinely trying, from everything I can tell, to make a roleplaying game, not just a wargame with some continuing characters. So the evolution mechanic needs to empower people's character concepts, not hijack them. A partial random process to challenge people's concepts supports roleplaying; a totally random process to overrule them does not.

Yeah I want it to be more than just a wargame. That's what I htought Battletech was lacking most on was giving the player a reason to be out in big mechs blasting the cr@p out of one another.

Anyway .. I'm thinking of scrapping the player "levels" all together and just assigning "ability points." What you do with those points (learn meditations, learn skills [i.e. SSM "repair"] etc.) is up to the player. If, at the very beginning, someone wants to dump a lot of points into learning "evolution control" then so be it. If someone else would rather learn "special move meditation" and get wicked evil with special moves then so be it.

Of course, after some time or through some mechanic players will get more points but the idea of levels is a little too cumbersome and just one more thing to track theat doesn't really do anything - especially when the machines themselves are borken into levels (evoultion cycles).

However, I think I'll allow players to "buy back" their points – at any time – so if they invest in an ability they don't like they can change or if they simply get tired of playing a certain way they can "re-train" and play a different way.

I agree with Sydney about allowing players to try to control the evolution.

I also think there are WAY too many rolls going on here. And you don't need them all. How does this sound:

---Attacker rolls d20 to determine hit-location. (perhaps a modifier for this roll could allow the player to choose a location within the modified score range, so if you roll 10 with a mod of 3, you can choose any location between 7 and 13)
---Attacker rolls penetration, compares to armor value, takes the difference. (he rolls 18, against an armor of 12, for a difference of 6).
---Defender reduces armor by one point, then checks to see if 6 is higher than the value of the systems inside. Any systems with a score less than 6 get damaged/destroyed.

In this way, the more a weapon penetrates, the more likely it is to destroy all the systems inside. And all with only 2 rolls.

I dunno, you might be really happy with your system, but I would get very tired of making so many rolls every single round, especially when it's not even my turn. Imagine how bad it'd be if you are up against 3 enemies at once. In that one round you could potentially be making 14 rolls (2 for your attack, and 4 for each of the enemy's ballistic attacks). To me, that is ridiculous, especially when you need a chart for 13 of those rolls.

Even if you only allow one-on-one battles, each round both players could be making 6 rolls and looking up charts for 5 of them. You might like this idea, but I don't think it's necessary, and I would house-rule it to death.

My final comment on the combat rolls is this: with your current system of rolling for system damage after penetration, are you aware that the chance exists that a weapon will penetrate without actually damaging a single system, even if it penetrated with a roll of 28 to an armor of 12? This is because the defending player could just get lucky, and that ballistic cannon blast that just tore a chunk out of my armor managed to completely miss everything inside. Oh, and if it's possible to take out an enemy in one round, it's also possible for your players to be taken out in one round. You might want this, just making sure you know. (I personally like the idea of making combat really risky like that)


But yeah, I think your evolution system is pretty cool, and sounds like a really good advancement system. However, could you explain a bit clearer about the different evolution cycles, and how they relate to each other? I'm not sure I'm totally grokking it. But the concepts you have going sound like really good ones. I mean,... I'd play it (with less required rolls of course).

-Ben

I also think there are WAY too many rolls going on here. And you don't need them all. How does this sound:

---Attacker rolls d20 to determine hit-location. (perhaps a modifier for this roll could allow the player to choose a location within the modified score range, so if you roll 10 with a mod of 3, you can choose any location between 7 and 13)
---Attacker rolls penetration, compares to armor value, takes the difference. (he rolls 18, against an armor of 12, for a difference of 6).
---Defender reduces armor by one point, then checks to see if 6 is higher than the value of the systems inside. Any systems with a score less than 6 get damaged/destroyed.

---Defender reduces armor by one point, then checks to see if 6 is higher than the value of the systems inside. Any systems with a score less than 6 get damaged/destroyed.

with your current system of rolling for system damage after penetration, are you aware that the chance exists that a weapon will penetrate without actually damaging a single system, even if it penetrated with a roll of 28 to an armor of 12?

Oh, and if it's possible to take out an enemy in one round, it's also possible for your players to be taken out in one round. You might want this, just making sure you know. (I personally like the idea of making combat really risky like that)

However, could you explain a bit clearer about the different evolution cycles, and how they relate to each other?

Assorted thoughts:

I frankly like the idea that a hit can either blow straight through without hitting anything vital or be a one-shot kill; but I also agree there're too many rolls. Not sure quite how to reconcile the two. (Very helpful, I know).

Also, I think Special Moves are going to be a key attraction of this game, and you should make them as important as possible. I.e. called shots (as opposed to random hit locations) should require a Special Move; controlling evolution should require a Special Move (or the non-combat equivalent thereof).

EDIT:

Here's a thought on the damage issue (which changed as I was writing them...):

1) Have every system in a location have a given number of "redundancy points." List the systems in some pleasing order under each location. (E.g. #1 = interior structure; #2 = chain gun; #3 = servos, or whatever). At least one slot in each location is BLANK.

2) When damage penetrates, roll a die -- just one die -- to randomly determine which system takes damage first (e.g. I roll a 2, I start with the chain gun). If the BLANK comes up, the damage just blows through, harmlessly.

3) Weapon power minus armor equals damage dealt. (E.g. my Megacannon has power 6, your armor is level 2, I do 4 damage).

4) Apply damage to the randomly selected system from step (2); anything left over goes to the next system on the list. (E.g. the chain gun had 3 damage points, so it's destroyed and I do 1 point to the servos too).

As long as a system has any redundancy points left, it's fine.

Here's a thought on the damage issue (which changed as I was writing them...):

1) Have every system in a location have a given number of "redundancy points." List the systems in some pleasing order under each location. (E.g. #1 = interior structure; #2 = chain gun; #3 = servos, or whatever). At least one slot in each location is BLANK.

2) When damage penetrates, roll a die -- just one die -- to randomly determine which system takes damage first (e.g. I roll a 2, I start with the chain gun). If the BLANK comes up, the damage just blows through, harmlessly.

3) Weapon power minus armor equals damage dealt. (E.g. my Megacannon has power 6, your armor is level 2, I do 4 damage).

4) Apply damage to the randomly selected system from step (2); anything left over goes to the next system on the list. (E.g. the chain gun had 3 damage points, so it's destroyed and I do 1 point to the servos too).

As long as a system has any redundancy points left, it's fine.

What if I drop the "rolling for location" and just make all shots "called" .. i.e. I fire at the left arm. Then roll for penetration and then come up with a simplified roll for redundancy somehow

Dunno just one idea to streamline things.


(idea)

Ok as I was writing this I had this idea. You hit a location (somehow .. either roll or call), you roll for penetration check (12 beats 10 etc.) Then you roll once for redundancy. The number that is rolled is the number of systems affected. Anything over 10 is a miss but rolls of 1 -10 dictate the number of systems affected.

Not quite as random as before but it certainly lowers the rolls to a maximum of three (if you're rolling for location).

Don't know if I like it or not but it's one idea.

How about levels of Evolution Control. Level 1 would let you modify the evo result by +/- 1, Level 2 would be +/- 2 (including +/- 1), etc. The more you focus into Evolution Control the better you would be at it.

But I think you also have to tie this into the robot / rider connection better or why wouldn't there just be one evolution master that would meditate whenever a robot was about to evolve before handing off the evolved robot to some other driver. Know what I mean?

I'll second the comments that you've got way too many rolls going on there.

1) It seems that your armor/protection numbers always seem to add together, so there ought to be a way to make it just one number. If you make 'armor' a system that can be damaged, this gives the possibility that the protection of the armor can be decreased by hits, but does not make it mandatory.

2) The multiple system damage thing seems both cumbersome and to some degree unrealistic, much as battletech hits migrating up your mech's arm and into their torso did. You could probably get most of the effect you want by having one roll for location, which absorbs a certain amount of damage, and the rest of the damage is applied to a generalized "hits" the SSM has. In human terms, if I shoot you in the arm, I incapacitate the arm, -and- do some overall impairment to your functioning. On an SSM, I might blow a hole in a manipulator, but also compromise certain data or power pathways or cause general system interference from short-circuits, etc.

I hope this babbling is useful in some way.

Greg Porter
BTRC