Hello,

I've been perplexed for years about this.

Everywhere I go, I encounter people that won't play anything but D&D.

There is incredible resistance to trying anything else.

I call them, D&D snobs.

Now, they are trying to take over the rest of the industry with D20.

By making everyone conform to their standard, it forces us to acknowledge that their product is superior.

I've always been annoyed that I have to conform to the standards set by an inferior product.

I've always thought that if you have a good enough game, you should set the standard that others must try to conform to.


Is it just a marketing thing?

I've read that people, once they make a decision, don't want to change what they buy and that you have to tailor your marketing to sort of shock them into making a new purchase decision and try a new product.

Anyway, does everyone else have any thoughts on this?

How does it affect the marketing of your game?

btw, I mean no real disrespect for D&D, but whenever I start to talk about my game, I often encounter a barrage of angry comments and even hate.

This also confuses me, because to me its just about picking another flavor of ice cream.
Can you imagine someone becoming hateful towards you when you just want to try another flavor besides vanilla?

Mark,

The D&D snobs are right about one thing -- their game is superior because it is predominant. That ubiquity makes it possible for many people to speak the same language. At the very least it gets a group of people playing together relatively easily, and they can figure out the rest from there.

Given that you've created Fantasy Imperium, I think you really need to figure out what it is your game does differently than D&D and focus on that. You may find the Fantasy Heartbreaker articles helpful in that regard (click on "Articles" in the link listing on the top right of this page). Trying to show that your game supplants D&D is an incredibly difficult challenge. I consider it impossible for the indie publisher. WotC has resources and talented people that no indie publisher can keep up with, nevermind all the other D20/OGL companies.

The problem is this: If they look at your fantasy game, and it seems not terribly different from D&D, with which they are comfortable and familiar, why should they bother making a change?

I don't see it as picking a flavor of ice cream. Any individual can choose a flavor they like. They do not have the same freedom in picking a flavor EVERYONE likes. Role-playing games are different in that respect -- everyone must come on board. It's not an individual choice. If it were, I'd have played about 27 different games in the last year alone.

Hello,
Very interesting comments.

I think that most every other game is better than D&D (not just mine).
In fact, I've never encountered a game that wasn't better, and I've played most everything out there, except for these newer indie games I've just found here (every one of them looks pretty fun).

Your comment that D&D is superior because they are dominant is a very good point. Sort of might makes right....

I used to hope that Wizardry or Rolemaster or Palladium or GURPS or HERO or somebody else would supplant D&D... but now that I think of it, I still like the game.

So from a marketing pov, the best thing is to focus on what's different?
hmmm... great advice again. :)

I've read the Heartbreaker article, but I'll have to re-read it.

I never thought about the ice cream thing the way you put it... but people still shouldn't be so hateful.

Then again, I suppose its the nature of us game designers not to be satisfied with anything else out there.
Thats what drives us to make something we think is better.

Perhaps I'm just experiencing shock that other people aren't as dissatisfied as I was.

Thanks again for the comments. :)

Greets,

When I was giving game design my first go, I wanted to create the D&D trump. It would contain what was good about D&D, but take it all to the next level. It would revolutionize the world. It would sell no less than 3 million copies... and so on and on...

But then I wised up, and I realized that I was setting unrealistic expectations. The expectations I needed to set were ones that were about my enjoyment and my satisfaction. After my game, Eldritch Ass Kicking, was reviewed positively by a few folks and some friends and fellow gamers loved it -- and it was a huge hit at the local con, I really didn't need any more success than that. Furthermore, the game got picked up by the awesome folks at Key20 for a print release. I don't know how I could "succeed" better than that. For me, I was happy and excited when people played it and liked it.

Mark, I think you need to find a standard like that. That doesn't mean you sacrifice quality or completeness, but you need to figure out why you are writing games. Are you writing them to make scads of money? Are you writing them because you love gaming? If so, what is really going to make you happy? Even if you sell five copies, you can still find success.

I think this is one of the strengths I've learned from Indie RPGs. We don't have to be bound by some artificial best seller list (which rarely ever changes in the industry). We get to set our own goals and have fun with it.... Keep up the good work!

Thanks,
Nathan

Mark,

Respectfully, I think you're crusading against something that bugs you about D&D. This is not a good publishing and/or business plan. It's a good rant, but it starts from a pessimistic mission. "D&D sucks. I'll show 'em!" In fact, many, many people (including myself) do not think D&D sucks.

D&D is what it is. Very often, when I see people upset with how awful D&D is, they do not appreciate D&D for what it is and does. Rather, they're upset with what D&D isn't and doesn't do. I say that because I have done that (including some of my earliest game designs). I didn't appreciate D&D for what it was, having lost sight of the fact that I was blaming it for things it never tried to accomplish. "D&D sucks because it isn't realistic." Or, "D&D is terrible because it keeps screwing up my story." I was barking up the wrong tree.

Is D&D flawless? Of course not! Like all games, it has noticeable flaws. Is D&D "good"? I say that it is, if you enjoy the kind of play it encourages. In fact, I think D&D 3rd ed. is a very well done game that accomplishes what it tries to do.

Perhaps I'm just experiencing shock that other people aren't as dissatisfied as I was.

Mark

There is an old saying in boxing (I think or maybe its Urban Legend) that you never say "Tired" to your fighter, even to say that his opponent looks "tired". Its a mental thing.

Same goes with marketing that compares producst and mentions said products. It never seemed as effective when people compared and contrasted. It always seemed to me to just be sour grapes and not a very effective marketing technique.

Still further, to paraphrase Grant, stop worry about what they are doing to us and start worrying about you are going to be doing to them.

Who cares about D&D. Many play it and love it. Many play it just because. Your best chance to become successful to is to market your game and focus on your game and not waste a single penny or moment on Marketing D&D, cause every time you mention them thats exactly what you are doing.


Sean

Hello,
Acually, I suppose this post was partly a rant about my experiences over the last.....15 years? of trying to get people to play different games.

I loved playing D&D but I wanted to try something else and oftentimes had trouble finding anyone else to play the other games.

But lately, I've been running into people that have a strange attitude about D20.
Sort of like the PC vs Apple thing.
To me, both kinds of computers are just tools. They are both good. Flathead or phillips screwdrivers are just good for different things. But many people took the debate very personally. They even began to make fun of each other for liking their product more than the other one...


Actually, I think the D&D people need to present the information in the new D20 PHB in an easier form. I've always hated having to read through tons of fluff to get to the rules. As to the rules, well they work fine, and I've had fun playing it.

It seems that I'm always running into people with a bad attitude that make fun of other people for playing different games (ever hear somebody rag on "one of those Buffy players?").

I suppose these people are in every crowd.

Sort of like poor people that have a reverse kind of snobbery.
They make fun of people that drive mercedes while the rich snobs make fun of the people driving hondas.

I don't think that people who enjoy D&D are "wrong."

I was just wondering about all the resistance to trying new things and how it has affected other game designers. Especially when they are abused. :)


Matt, I'm not taking your comments in a negative way. In fact, these comments make me think about the subject. Thats why I posted it after all. :)


Nathan.... it sounds like you've made a cool game. Did you say it was called, "Eldritch Ass Kicking?" I'll have to check it out.

I once met a game designer at a con in Seattle (Dragonflight).
He had designed this really cool card game that was going to revolutionize the world.......
I resisted playing Magic for about 5 years but one day I sat down and played it. Wow! What a great game!
I've heard they sold 4 billion cards in the first year (that can't be right).

As to goal setting, you shouldn't sell yourself short.
"Go ahead and set impossible goals, and then exceed them!" is my motto. :)
However, if you've reached your goals then thats cool!

My goals with Fantasy Imperium have already been met years ago.
I finished the system. It works. Eveyone that plays it loves it.
A few people have told me that my game was their first RPG and when they tried other games, they didn't like them.

So I'm "done" as far as I'm concerned.

The only reason I'm publishing it is so that my players get off my back. :)

AzDGBoss....
I love it!



Hey, I just remembered a time a few years ago when I met one of the people that made Earthdawn. He wanted us to play it. We all said, "No way!"

hehe, guess I'm guilty of it too. :)

I've always been annoyed that I have to conform to the standards set by an inferior product.

Mark -

People in the d20 community tend to feel that there's a widespread hatred of d20! An entertaining example is the "hate of d02" photoshop challenge [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=86456&highlight=hate+photoshop]at EN World[/URL].

My own feelings about marketing agree with the idea that it's best to celebrate roleplaying however it's done, and say "if you like this particular aspect, you'll find my game does it well because..." rather than "I've fixed the problems in Game X by..." (even if that was the impetus for your design).

But it seems possible to me that one could try to pitch a game to an audience defined specifically by their antagonism to d20. Whether or not you could get a group whose common attribute is a dislike for one thing to agree on something else is an open question.

- Tavis

Hello,
I've seen people comment before about their games and then they were harrassed by D20 people who were offended by the game's "attack" on D20 (not on this board, but other places).

I guess everybody is pretty sensitive sometimes.

My comment about having to conform to an inferior product should apply to any other game that is better than D20.

However, its true that other games like the Burning Wheel, etc. are simply different types of games and they shouldn't even be compared in the same way. One isn't better or worse than D&D, only different.
I didn't think of that.

These excellent comments are really changing the way I look at this.

thx.
:)

My main concern is how to market your product without stirring up resentment?

I guess I'm looking for a bit of "professsionalism" in my approach.

Before, as a gamer, I said and did whatever I wanted, but if you're selling a prouct, I suppose you need to be careful not to step on anybody.

I guess the rule of "never say anything bad about someone. If you don't have anything to say, then don't say anything" may be a good place to start.

Again, thx for all the cool thoughts. :)

[is this what politicians go thru?]

MarktheAnimator wrote:
My main concern is how to market your product without stirring up resentment?
quote]

Well honestly you probably cannot avoid causing some resentment. Thats just Human Nature. And even if you never mention another game in your marketing, by default your are saying "Buy my game, not their game."

Honestly if you just make the best game you can, listen to your playtesters and editers, then I would not be concerned about what others think. If they want to be offended then they can be offended.


Sean

MarktheAnimator wrote: My main concern is how to market your product without stirring up resentment?

I guess I'm looking for a bit of "professsionalism" in my approach.

I'll follow that advice, thx.

It seems that I'm always running into people with a bad attitude that make fun of other people for playing different games (ever hear somebody rag on "one of those Buffy players?").

"Hey, I really like the Dropkick Murphys. They rock!"
"No, they're totally sold out corporate rock. You've got a lot too learn."
"But I saw them live in concert. They really do rock."
"You're one of those, huh?"

Mark - There are many people who only play one or more systems. Granted, D and D is the "big" one like this, but I know people who will only play Palladiu, or will only play Vampire, or will only play.....well you get the idea. Many people will go with the big systems because a) it is easier to find players, b)more support, or c)the game is "known" where as many of the smaller indie systems never get the chance to get thier name out there. There are many websites that will let you post news about your games, such as www.gamingreport.com and help to generate interest.
I have been involved in the design side of gaming for some time now, and soon my company will finally be publishing our initial release in our series of games. With the marketing and advertising that we have done (not much as of yet though) we have focused on what we believe to be the strengths of our system. We make careful effort to not claim to be the end all of gaming or to inadvertantly attack other systems. Even with our effort to be friendly we have even stirred up a bit of conterversy. If you do a search for "Lore Gaming" on gamingreport.com you will see one of the articles we posted and how it started up a d20 argument - which of course was never our intention.
Point is, no matter what you do some people are going to not be happy because their system of choice is the best in the world - and there is no way you can do better. Don't worry about that, there are enough people out there who are up for something new, and if your game can stand on its own merits it will gain a reputation of sorts. Remember, this is gaming. Gaming is supposed to be fun, and designing the game should be fun to. Concentrate on having a good time as you do your product - and let the rest fall into place.

Hello,
Again, more good advice.

thx. :)

Hi folks,

Advertisers discovered the mechanism of brand loyalty; a product or a lifestyle becomes a part of a person's self image and identity. With that, people tend to get very defensive and protective of anything associated with that. Folks also seek to convert others to their views in order to reinforce their self image.

Any major product, or game, is sold first on the image that it provides; the perception of the what it supposedly is about. For me, I saw the ad for Basic D&D in a comic book, and it showed a lone warrior taking on a giant dragon alone, to which my 8 year old mind said, "Cool!" Whether the system or game actually produces the experience is secondary to whether folks continue to believe in the image it creates.

Another point of the defensiveness is that it becomes a source of pride with that identity. Ask any person who only plays a certain kind of game and they'll pour innumerable "reasons" why their game(they, themselves are) better than the others.

Is this all completely irrational? Yes. But that's how folks are. What this means for you is:

1) If your main concern is selling games, then marketing is prime, product is second. Image is everything.

2) There is no benefit to attempting to convert people or "open their minds". Present your game, and there will always be somebody, somewhere who will try it out.

Think of it like elections; your best bet is to present your game to the "swing voters" not the fanatics. There's no point in being frustrated with trying to have a conversation with someone who isn't listening and has already made up their mind. Suggesting anything else is percieved as a direct attack on their self identity, so they react defensively.

Chris

I do agree that image is important..but an accurate image. I for one bought the basic D and D set for the same reasons Bankuei did. I saw the lone warrior fighting the dragon and thought "I want to do that!" Therefore I bought the game almost immediatly. At the time I was ignorant of roleplaying, and when I discovered that the image presented was not a true liklihood of the mechanics I was gravely dissapointed and it actually seriously damaged my opinion of D and D. To this day I am still not a big D and D fan, and I hold that image partially responsible. So, although I agree with the importance of image, make sure it is an accurate one.

Hello,
The reason I bought D&D was because I overheard a conversation on a bus about somebody's adventure (they were raiding a tomb and had to fight some skeletons). Wow! That was cool! So I went out and bought the game.

ok, so if the image is so important, are we talking about the cover art?

I've spent years looking for a great artist. I finally found one. He charges lots of $$$. While I've heard that you shouldn't pay too much for your artists, I've found that most of the pros charge pretty much the same prices.

Also, I went out and bought a package deal for a bunch of images based on the portfolios I saw. While the art was excellent, I didn't think most of it fit well with the game. So directing your artists is also important.

So do you think the product's image is mostly a function of the cover art, the internal art, or the other stuff inside?

Also, while the product's image is important in getting them to buy it initially, do you think the quality of the product (how fun it is) will be important as well? At least in getting the customers to recommend the game? After all, one sale should multiply by 5 if they love the game, because thats how many players most people have.

I've also found that the image of a game is not only in the artwork, it is also in what people say about it.
I've always hated listening to conversations about games that included lots of game mechanics, so I've always strived for a system design that allowed you to play the game without having to talk rules all of the time.

I've heard that people are either visual, kinesthetic, or audio, so perhaps the image of your product that you project should appeal to all three?


Perhaps we should start a new thread on this.....

Yes - image is important. We have spent countless hours sweating over what will be good cover art for Lore: Uprising. A well covered professionaly bound book goes along way. A potential customer who has never heard of your game might pick it up to at least glance through it based on looks alone. I know that is why I picked up Vampire. I saw the green cover with the rose and thought "That looks cool...wonder what this is," and I ended up walking out of the store with it.
Reader opinion is just as vital. I can not tell you how many games I have bought because a friend of mine told me about how well the game was done. Where image will get people to look at your game, gamer opinion will get people to either buy it or blacklist it despite the image. You could have the prettiest bok in the world, but if you system is subpar you are wasting your time.
The multiply x5 is a good thought to keep in mind, but a bit optomistic in my own cynical opinion...lol. How many times did you simply use your friends books because you did not want to shell out $30....lol. But I digress...lol.
It comes down to a package - you want to have a well designed and well imaged product, but it needs to be solid as well. The two will feed off each other. Image will get you a good first impression, but system/setting will give you staying power....This is all in my opinion of course though...lol

Hi folks,

When I refer to image, its the entire way the game or product is "spun" in terms of media promotion. A good deal of that is producing the perception of "community", which is what a lot of the conventions, tournaments, magazines, online forums, "Living Campaigns" and LARPS are aimed at. The more popular it "seems" the more people get interested into it. The key point is that each of these things reinforces advertising the game itself.

If you can generate interest in the game, in enough people, over enough time, you will have sales. Most gamers buy games never having played them, never knowing if the game actually will suit their needs or if the system does anything that the back cover says it will. You simply need to keep folks hearing about it until they are willing to lay down cash to see for themselves.

Now, the long term issue of actual content; its about what people perceive about your game. Most rpgs are missing major sections on how to actually play(if you've never played before), most have really wonky systems or bad writing, which is why games often have serious errata or tons of house rules floating around. In some cases, people are literally selling incomplete games. But this is never seen as a problem amongst the fans, its either overlooked or considered a "feature", not a bug. As long as people are willing to do so, they'll keep playing it and supporting it regardless of content. A lot of players are still waiting for the magic day when their fighter levels up to the point to take on that dragon...

It's creating this sense of ongoing community and identification with the product that produces the die-hard fans. When you attack D&D, or White Wolf, or whatever game is the this person's "fan favorite", they take it as a personal attack on who they are. The same thing happens if you happen to diss a band that someone likes. It's instantly "transferred" to an insult of them personally.

Now, smaller games also can produce this sense of (rabid) community. Check out how fierce things get for Riddle of Steel! Along with the establishment of a community, there will instantly appear folks who hate it for no real reason. While both the fanatical supporters and detractors rarely have anything meaningful to say that really informs people about what the game is about, what it does do is produce continued curiosity and interest in the game, and more people buy it. Oftentimes its just to see what the hell is it about this game that gets everyone riled up.

All in all, this is less of a matter about individual aspects of artwork, layout, etc., and best looked at in the sense of marketing; You're looking at an overall message being conveyed by all forms of media. If you're looking to do the small, long term sales, such as most of the games here, then you're looking at building a strong community and letting that be the source of most of your promotion. If you're looking at doing larger sales, then its simply a matter of mass marketing and distributing, and focusing on the perception of the game.

Just remember, if you're out to create rabid fans either way, the only difference between your rabid fans and those of D&D(or Whitewolf, or whoever) is who's pocket they're filling. They're still just as likely to be obnoxious and crazed as any.

Chris