I've been rereading the Harry potter books, and looking back through this forum to pick up references to the likes of Sabriel and The Amulet of Samakrand. Add to the mix a healthy dose of the Nocturnals, Heathers, the Shamantic Princess anime, Exalted’s Dragon Blooded, and my own traumatic high school memories… So here is a fairly scattershot riff on of my thoughts on running a ‘magic school’ game.

Something like a darker version of the Potter setting, in which magic-folk live secretly beside ordinary humans who are only aware of the hidden society at the highest levels of government and institution, and a general understanding exists- police your own, and we won’t bother you.

The potential for Sorcery isn’t inherent in everyone- you either have the ‘spark’ or you don’t (born with 1 point of Lore, or pick it up after some kind of realty-shattering occult experience). Sorcery favors a more traditional understanding- demons are actual creatures of the otherworld, though there is no consensus if all demons derive from the same core source. A sorcerer’s methodology will reflect his family’s traditions, his upbringing, his personality, and the school he attended. Sorcery isn’t inherently good or evil any more than any other activity, but the dangers it presents are different from mundane activity.

The hidden otherworld borders closely on the mundane world in places, and there is where the sorcerers gather. They live in huge old Cloaked demon houses no one seems to notice, or hide their uncanny abilities behind a veil of normality. The Background concept from Sorcerer and Sword fits better than Cover in some cases, but mechanically it doesn’t especially matter. Characters may have one of each- a Background to describe your life within the shadow society, and Cover to describe your mundane face (if you maintain one). They are derived from alternate scores (one from Will and one from Stamina). A sorcerer born to normal parents would favor Cover, while one born into one of the old sorcerous families would likely favor Background.

The sorcerous society is diverse, insular, highly-stratified, baroque, dangerous, and weird. Living with demons for generations has made many of the Old Families very very strange. Demonic half-breeds, inbreeding, and bone-deep corruption are epidemic in the Old Families. Compare to those new to the shadow world, first generation new-blood or mundane-born. Less familiar with the intricacies of Sorcery, but less burned, less corrupt. Tensions run deep between these Johnny-come-lately mages and the Old World lineages who can trace their ancestry back to Solomon.

The sorcerous world is governed by an elected body who has the power to enforce secrecy and security (and fear of this body is what motivates Demons to remain secretive in the use of their powers). Generally, it is a fairly hands-off government, but given just cause (practice of ‘back magic’ or attempts to subvert the council) they will come down on errant sorcerers like the wrath of God. Since the independents and new-blood sorcerers outnumber the Old Families, they have the advantage in voting power… but the Old Families have all the money and influence and favors, so in practice things balance out. Election years (every seventh) are total bloody chaos.

Because a lot of sorcery is going to be used in a society of sorcerers, I am following a tact mentioned on page 17 of The Sorcerer’s Soul in which Angel is quoted from the old mailing list. Humanity loss comes from what a sorcerer chooses to do to enhance his sorcery, to meet his demon’s needs, and to further his power. If a sorcerer begins to serve the power rather than making the power serve him, the result is humanity checks.

Humanity is a sense of social responsibility- a recognition of the greater need for civility and empathy. Where social responsibilities clash (catching a friend engaging in some heinous black magic) humanity checks come into play. Loss of humanity makes you more selfish, less empathic, more willing to do whatever you need to do to get what you want. Even the most corrupt and decadent Old Family has a measure of this sense of responsibility, even if it is somewhat limited to their own kin.

I’m thinking in this direction, because the anti-humanity nature of the default rituals is pretty harsh, and you couldn’t really teach it to a bunch of teenagers if half of them would be soulless evil things before the end of the quarter.

But to compensate, and to make sure Sorcery remains dire, I considered tying Need to a demon’s Power. The more Power a demon has, the harsher and more humanity-threatening its Need becomes. At 1 or 2 Power, a demon’s Need is casually and easily met, at 4 or 5 its Need will represent a fairly serious responsibility to meet, and at 8+ it is the kind of thing which will get you into serious trouble or threaten your humanity.

To be really powerful, you either have to take the slow and difficult path of increasing your Scores, or you can take the fast and seductive path of sacrifices and high-power demons bound with especially awful rituals.

Because using Sorcery doesn’t carry the automatic ding of the Humanity check (for anything but Binding), I think using it will be much more common among the people I usually play with… with a lessening of immediate consequences, it seems logical to assume an increase in the activity. However, I think this is a more rope = more nooses situation- more sorcery is more opportunity for trouble and complication.

Demons… can be all kinds of neat things. A half-breed half-brother (perhaps even an internally conjoined demonic twin), an imaginary friend, an actual imp-on-your-shoulder, a demonic valet your Father gave you when you went off to school, an old family heirloom- a ring, or book, or knife, a flawed first-effort at summoning. The Old-Families will live in demon-houses staffed with Spawned servants. A New-blood sorcerer’s pet dog might become his first demon. Later on, demons can be just about anything…

In terms of organization…I was considering something like ‘cabals- groups of students assigned to look out for each other, attend classes together, balance each other’s personalities, challenge, and protect each other. They are rewarded as a group for individual successes, and punished as a group of individual failures. Rivalry between Cabals is encouraged (within limits). I used this concept in a teen superhero game I ran (also set in a ‘special school’) and it worked great as a built-in ‘adventure group’ builder. Players seemed to ‘get it’ and created concepts which were more social… virtual relationship maps formed within the pod (as I called them there) before play even began.

I don’t have any prospects for running anything like this… but I might possibly find the time and energy for it if the idea takes off…

So…

Thoughts/ideas/suggestions/consequences

I’m all over the place with this… help me focus on what is important (such as nailing a premise question)


Thanks

-Ben

Well, I myself didn't think the harry potter books/movies were very clear about premise.

You have this great metaphor for Magic = Expressing power/identity/status as an adult(As expressed primarily through Harry and his friends.). But its sort of muddled with issues of evil, traditional socially-parasitic magic(As expressed through Voldemort), and just, you know, whimsical messin' around on brooms(Most everyone else).

I think one intereasting, concise set up would be where Sorcery keeps the metaphor as the emerging power of an adult, and one is living in a school designed to mature AND represses the children, Demons seen as an inevitable part of life but don't you dare touch that! It'd work better if you establish the idea that the Sorcerers not being ready for Demons as a legitimate outcome.

Not sure that'd work for your ideas. Hope it works out.

Potter is only one influence here- and more for situation/concept than for premise. I AM NOT talking about trying to shoehorn the Harry Potter setting into a sorcerer framework...

What did you mean by this bit:

think one intereasting, concise set up would be where Sorcery keeps the metaphor as the emerging power of an adult, and one is living in a school designed to mature AND represses the children, Demons seen as an inevitable part of life but don't you dare touch that! It'd work better if you establish the idea that the Sorcerers not being ready for Demons as a legitimate outcome.

Oh, I didn't assume you to try to shoehorn Harry Potter into a Sorcerer setting, I was using references towards itfor insight towards the conundrum of:

Magic is taught by school.
Magic is supposed to be here.
Magic is transgressive.

That this sort of setting usually deals with.

The bit I provided is just an example of how to make the premise click together if one wants to play up the transgressive/rebelious aspects of Sorcery... but I'm guessing you're leaning towards magic being less transgressive.

I'm leaning to the idea that magic can be transgressive, but doesn't have to be. Sorcery represents a serious temptation- screw everyone else, I'm going for the real power. The transgression comes when a student sorcerer gets tired of his teachers cautious, measured pace, gets sick of waiting for a taste of the deep power, or gets pissed off enough to take some risks.

There isn't as fine a line as in most Sorcerer implementations. The line between fair use and violation is blury. In many sorcerer games, that line is drawn right across the threshold into the world of Sorcery- if you do this thing to any degree, you must transgress against your basic humanity. In a School game like I imagine here, that line is deeper into the Art... and crossing it gives you a taste of something.. quicker...easier...more seductive...

I think I see what you mean by students being held back by their instructors- about being 'unready for demons' and yeah- this is something on my plate.

Some other things to kink up a setting like this:

Mystery Societies: Within the greater society of sorcerers, and that of the school itself, and of any official 'houses' within the school, there will be Mysteries. Secret societies and cults with their own Lore, influence, resources, and methodology. I can see something like Skull and Bones in which all the members take part in a generations-long necromantic ritual, secretly making sacrifices to keep the common pool of necromatic power strong, and benifiting from it later in life.

Changlings: Some of the Old Families practiced some pretty grim magic down through the ages- such as trading their own children to the Otherworld for powerful demons who they interbred with. Such changling children occasionally return, alien to sorcerer and human society both, with minds realing from the impossible to remember otherworld experiences of their youth. What to dow ith such a wild child? Send it to school.

Patrons: Some demons are so horrible and vast, whole families are dedicated to keeping them appeased, fed, and happy- and of course, to reaping their power for their own use, and punishing enemy families who serve enemy patrons. The practice is tolerated so long as the patrons stay under control...



-B

I'm reading the Amulet of Samarkan right now- wow.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/078681859X/qid=1089120860/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-7237160-1406461?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Tons of excelent source material here... Did Stroud read Sorcerer before writing this??? An amazing fit for a Sorcerer game.

Serious food for thought on this kind of game.

I'm going to float this idea at my biweekly M&M game tonight.

-B

Looks like I may have the chance to actually run something like this soon.


I'm looking for some mechanical advice now about some of the things I riffed on above.


Since this game would assume a society of sorcerers, sorcery itself can't be entirely transgression... rather, there are degrees of sorcery. Rather than a yes/no interface with sorcerous acts, humanity checks will be linked to what you do to perform sorcery, how you meet demonic needs, and how far outside 'acceptable bounds' you go perusing your sorcerous powers.

I'm not sure how to tweak the mechanics to best suit this...

My main concern is that it becomes hard to plausibly create the a setting in which young sorcerers attend a boarding school with others of their ilk, if all it takes is a single cascade of failures to leave the student a Humanity 0 skell. There needs to be a certain cushion to allow for more casual- if more modest- uses of sorcery. It also feeds into one of the core themes I’m playing with: desire for power VS ability to deal with it.

My basic tweak was this- you don’t make Humanity checks for Sorcerous actions (other than Binding, but not Pacting) with any demon with a Power equal or less than your Lore score. Lore becomes something of your advancement into the magical society, how much adult sorcerers trust in your ability to deal with dark powers, and how much ‘cred’ you have in occult circles. Lore could be thought to map roughly to class or grade level (though such things are not a part of the school). See the Descriptors below (‘Hidden Depths’ and ‘Worthy’) for more on how this works.

Getting caught doing sorcery beyond your ability (as judged by an adult sorcerer, typically a parent or instructor) can get you and your Cabal into trouble. Extracurricular sorcery is frowned upon. Demons (beyond the first demon all students are permitted to bring to school) are strictly controlled, and binding a demon beyond your safe threshold is a dangerous business (as it involves Humanity risk).

Some definitions perhaps:

Premise: “What would you do for power?” flavored as “Who and what would you betray for power?”

Demons & Sorcery: Demons are… something else. Ghosts, spirits, monsters, nightmares… they are certainly not human, often dangerous, typically untrustworthy (though not all malicious or evil… just weird or alien). Generally, the more powerful the demon, the more rarified and hard to meet its Need will be (often threatening Humanity checks to meet it). Sorcery is actual mystical rituals and occult practices. Nothing especially exotic here.

Humanity: Empathy, social connection, the ability to put the greater good beyond personal gain. A sense of responsibility to society (either the occult society of Sorcerers, or the mundane society of common humanity). Sorcery threatens this by offering great personal gain if a person contravenes social norms and puts himself before his fellows. You get internal conflict when social obligations and personal empathy conflict.

Humanity Loss Check: When personal empathy and social obligation conflict (catch your best friend cheating on an exam, and the Honor Code demands you turn him in).

Humanity Gain Check: When you can reconcile personal empathy and social obligation (Face your trial in Honor Court for cheating, and find some way to forgive your friend who turned you in. If your friend acts as your Defending Council, he might gain a Gain check as well.)

Still not sure about these.

Lore: Occult knowledge and awareness AND your apparent advancement and trustworthiness to adult sorcerers.





Descriptors

Stamina
Weedy: thin, wheezy, and quick to run
Jock: fit, athletic, and physically adept
Big for your Age: big. Big and strong.
Unnatural Vitality: something… weird about you.
Healthy: Just fit and hale.
Rangy: Thin and wirery, hungry and quick.
Ravaged: Health ruined from illness or magical disaster

Will
Obstinate: stubborn and spiteful.
Know-it-All: has to have the last word
Ignorance is Bliss: sometimes the best lock is a big iron bar.
Manipulative: likes to be in control, secretly.
Domineering: Likes to be in control, overtly.
Social Chameleon: A different face for every situation.
Popular: Likeable, good looking, and well regarded.
Kinda Crazy: Not quite right… unpredictable and sometimes scary.

Lore
Changeling (2-5): You grew up in the Otherworld, and bear shocking insights from the experience… but you are still learning to be human. You can trade down starting Humanity as per the Sword and Sorcery rules, but can’t take a Humanity cap.

Oldblood (3-5): You belong to on of the Families, and your childhood was filled with wonders and horrors to which you reacted with the blasé attitude of one old at an early age.

Natural Prodigy (3+): Sorcery comes naturally to you.

Shattering Experience (1-3): You used to be an ordinary kid… until one day your reality was shattered by an occult experience. You carry the scars and memories and insight from that experience forever.

Newblood (1+): Born to mundane parents, you are one of those who possess the natural the ‘spark’ needed for Sorcery from birth. Noticed by a Sorcerer, and introduced to your potential. You mundane family may or may not know of your powers and the nature of the School.

Half-breed (4+): Neither human nor demon, you are somewhere in the middle. You have a way with demons- you understand them better than most sorcerers- but humans remain a puzzle. The Oldbloods hate your impure blood, while the Newbloods fear your strangeness. You can trade down starting Humanity or accept a humanity cap as per the Sword & Sorcery rules.

Good Student (3+): You study hard and learn quickly and the future looks bright.

Hidden Depths (2+): You have knowledge and abilities not immediately apparent. Most people underestimate your sorcerous potential and prowess, but Adults tends to assume you aren’t ready for real power yet.

Worthy (1+): You radiate sorcerous ability and competence. People tend to assume you are more advanced than you are, and Adults assume you can handle power beyond your actual abilities.




Thoughts?


Suggestions?


I'm not dead-set on any of this quite yet, so if I'm missing something or if something might work better, please let me know.

-B

I'm one of Bailywolf's players, and this idea has me pretty psyched to play Sorcerer. I'm still reading Sorcerer, so I may have some of the terminology wrong/misunderstood, but here are my initial thoughts/comments.

-----
One thing that struck me from the Sorcerer text is that the default assumption is that Sorcerers are already the smartest, cleverest people on Earth. I think if you take this, and add it to your ideas about the school (established power versus 'new' power), and what you have is a school of prodigies, being taught by people who are only _as_ smart as the kids, and perhaps not even that.

This took my thoughts to 'Enders Game', where the prodigies are sent to a sort of isolated place where the teachers have absolute control over their intelligent and terrifying charges. I don't think you'd have to put the school in space, but far away from civilization and 'outside contact' (a boarding school is perfect!). The students would be controlled through rigorous study and artificial competition (the Battle Room games in Ender's Game, maybe some sort of small-scale competitive magic in this game?), which would also act as tests on their ability.

Doing magic outside of this context would be strictly forbidden. Of course, to get ahead in 'the games' you need to do some dangerous extracurricular study. Perhaps the teachers are up to something sininster, perhaps they're just trying to train the best, most careful Sorcerers they can.

Also, you can steal the 'Armies' idea from Enders Game and, like you mentioned, put the students into study groups/teams for the "competition". But perhaps these are 'named' groups (Like the Houses in HP or the armies in Ender's Game) that have histories. Example: Manticore Group is a cursed name. Manticore has never been ranked, has never produced any notable Sorcerers, and is often plagued by student injuries, and, on occasion, spectacular and gruesome deaths. Students have been known to drop out of school rather than face the legacy of Manticore. Perhaps you will be the first to change this. Perhaps not.

The other thing that strikes me about this setting is how it's a bit UnSorcerer-like. It gives the GM much more control over the overall plot flow (considering that the GM plays the teachers, who basically hold ultimate power over the student's lives) and reduces the power of Kickers. Whatever plots are in place at the school are the plots that are going to play out. It reduces a little of the unique freedom of Sorcerer, but the rest of the ideas are interesting enough that I'm pretty enthused to play!

I hadn't considered the 'smartest, cleverest' angle... but it may not be entirely relevant here. Kids almost always think they are smarter and cleverer than parents and teachers, and certainly many are smarter than they are given credit for being... in many ways, it doesn't really matter- no matter how smart you are (or think you are) the teachers still have the authority and power to shut you down... getting away with shenanigans in school can almost be thought of as part of the training, and you might only seem to have 'gotten away with it' while the headmaster sits back and listens to his demon recount your latest exploits. Learning how to rise in power without overtly violating the social order is a valuable lesson itself.


My plan for organizing students (and this, PC's) was to assign them to Cabals. A Cabal is a small group of students numbering no more than half a dozen. Cabals are responsible for each other- punishment is issued to whole cabals, not to individual students- and you receive two sets of marks- personal and cabal. Learning how to get along with other Sorcerers is part of what the School is for, and learning how to be responsible for the actions of other Sorcerers is also key. Some cabals remain resolute friends ever after graduation... others fall apart, and members hate each other.


The School is setup something like the Map in a 'Sorcerer & Sword' game, with new areas being added to the map as needed- 'discovered' through play. It is detailed through play, but will certainly be huge and old and very weird.


Kickers will still be essential, and can run the gamut from WB style teen angst stuff to full-blown magick-and-death kickers... they play out and resolve as you would expect them too. Obviously, there are certain things which must be accepted- a kicker can't take you away from the school and should be something which can be resolved (or at least played upon) in school. Kickers tied to the reason a given character joins the PC cabal, attends this particular school, or discovers (or is initiated into) sorcerous ability all work fine.


I don't think the setting will lessen the significance of kickers for driving play overmuch.

-B

What is your Humanity=0 condition?

This sounds like a really cool idea though ^_^

-- Jason

I like the idea of developing the school through play, filling in the map. That certainly captures the feeling of the Harry Potter novels, and could even be supported in the setting by giving the characters increasing privileges as they gain status in the school.

In reference to the comment about the GM having too much power, I'm not so sure. If you look at the source material (H.P. and the whole genre of boy's own stories, including Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn), the licit daylight world of classes and tests is only a part of what the stories are about. For that matter, the most competitive aspects of school life tend to be emphasized in the stories. The greater part of those stories revolve around the friendships and rivalries between students and the schemes they unfold behind the teachers' backs.

I wonder if you are planning to define the nature of Demons more strictly. If the young Sorcerers can bind low-powered Demons without risk to humanity, there should be some limits set so that a clever player doesn't load up on Power 2 utility demons, each friendly and easily satisfied, and unhinge the whole game with his Pokemon-like zoo.

Great stuff, a few random thoughts all over the place, I hope you can sort them out!

Early on, you stressed the aggression and intrigue of the Adult Sorcerer world – so it doesn’t make much sense for such people to turn their children over to others for schooling and interaction. If things are really as heated as “total bloody chaos”. I think maybe more of a Sorcerous cold war, or a sort of “elite” club identity among all sorcerers in contrast to the mundane world makes for a more stable situation in which people would want their children to be raised in a school environment.

So why are there schools? Perhaps because the adult sorcerers don’t want their children around all the time – distracting and a liability – perhaps their own demons are jealous of the newcomers or that parents fear their children in one way or another. Perhaps Sorcerers have lost the ability to relate to children and end up raising monsters and vengeful little sorcerers and schools are ways of socializing them and keeping contacts open between isolated and far-scattered Old Families, a sort of network through the use of children.

Ultimately, it seems like this could a premise based on exploring childhood and maturation. If this is true, than it seems to me that children are “open” and thus the first ones that demons mature into – and the demons are drawn to particular children. It could be possible that this is a situation of you reap what you sow – the child deserves the demon they get. You made the comment: “you either have the ‘spark’ or you don’t (born with 1 point of Lore, or pick it up after some kind of realty-shattering occult experience).” It seems to me this last part is backwards – you fail to acknowledge your spark after some sort of negative experience which causes you to block out the existence of your demon. Such a “black space” in your past could make for a lot of roleplay potential – what happened in your history to cause you to ignore your destiny? Was it the fact that your nascent demon told you to do something that resulted in the accidental death of your sibling? Were your parents terrified of your power and beat you when these powers manifested?

Changing Lore to Heritage or Something
To reflect the innateness of sorcery, I’d even re-label Lore to something like Heritage. “Lore” as a descriptor doesn’t seem to fit. Yeah, its mostly a cosmetic thing, but I think heritage, legacy, or birthright goes a long way to shifting the feel of the game.

Premise Revisited
As for you state: “Premise: “What would you do for power?” flavored as “Who and what would you betray for power?”, perhaps, since this is about children, we could ask instead “What will Power Do to You?”. I paraphrase a song lyric “They all started out with Bad Directions”. What if this school is not to help and educate Sorcerers, but to control and indoctrinate them? What if the schools are intended to produce a product: A Sorcerer Adult, willing to play the same games and machinations that their Old Families carry out. In this case, the characters have the option of trying to maintain their own identities and artistry in spite of the efforts of the school and the teacher. The socialization policies of these schools don't have to be obvious and upfront, but subtle and convincing.

In this case, you have a sort of clock ticking – Humanity could be dual: your innocence as a child AND your own identity in the face of a conformity producing institution.

Humanity Zero: You become the Sorcerer they want you to be – you have been socialized to be a Sorcerer, and at Humanity Zero you graduate. You’re out of the game, and become one of the Old Families, part of the status quo.

Premise Revisited
As for you state: “Premise: “What would you do for power?” flavored as “Who and what would you betray for power?”, perhaps, since this is about children, we could ask instead “What will Power Do to You?”. I paraphrase a song lyric “They all started out with Bad Directions”. What if this school is not to help and educate Sorcerers, but to control and indoctrinate them? What if the schools are intended to produce a product: A Sorcerer Adult, willing to play the same games and machinations that their Old Families carry out. In this case, the characters have the option of trying to maintain their own identities and artistry in spite of the efforts of the school and the teacher. The socialization policies of these schools don't have to be obvious and upfront, but subtle and convincing.

Hiya,

I may just kick this tweak in the head, and run it by-the-book, now that I think about it.

Ron Edwards wrote: Hiya,

I may just kick this tweak in the head, and run it by-the-book, now that I think about it.

Picture me with my head sideways on the desk, sobbing gratefully.

I've been restraining myself for twelve posts, knowing that if I were to say in my best Cartman voice, "Justrunitbythefuckingbookit'sbuilttodoallthis!!!", that everyone would dig in their heels with gamer stubbornness.

Best,
Ron

Hello,

In the interest of internet pedantry, here're the previous discussions about this stuff:

I wince as I type - Sorcerer for Harry Potter RPG
Child sorcerers: Amulet of Samarkand

Best,
Ron

Something in Ron's response to the "Harry Potter" thread rings a bell. I'd find a game like this very interesting, but I think there might be tension between the hard-core exploration of premise on the one hand and the genre expectations on the other.

Perhaps if one changed the setting significantly, it would lower the expectations of being just like the source material. Maybe if it were set in a Sword-and-Sorcery world, something like "Lord Greyskull's Academy of Necromancy"? Then the un-HP events of the game, such as trying to murder one's rivals and pin it on the prefect, would fit in better.