Topic: Feminist game design II (split)
Started by: dewey
Started on: 7/2/2004
Board: RPG Theory
On 7/2/2004 at 10:52am, dewey wrote:
Feminist game design II (split)
everyone:
I've just joined the Forge and saw this topic.
I read the first page - don't remind me to do that - and I didn't find something I think important.
What's the cause or purpose to make a game about feminist issues?
On 7/2/2004 at 1:10pm, Andrew Norris wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
dewey wrote: What's the cause or purpose to make a game about feminist issues?
Hi, dewey, and welcome to the Forge.
I think the purpose for making a game about feminist issues is probably the same as the purpose for making a game about anything else -- to explore those issues, both in game design and in actual play.
I don't mean that as a tautology, but there's precedent for it. Sorcerer's basically about "Do your ends justify your means?" and people have used it successfully to create a lot of stories about just that.
As for the cause, I think that would have to be answered by the person creating it, but I'd wager it has something to do with curiousity about these issues and an interest to see them dealt with in a play environment.
On 7/3/2004 at 7:45am, dewey wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
Thanks.
I have a vague feeling that exploring such a practical issue in roleplaying is somewhat decadent. Feminism is not an issue to be explored by those involved, it's an issue of day-to-day reality. If someone wants to KNOW something (or many things) about it, then there are lots of poeple, websites, organizations, etc. to ask.
But, then, it's only my opinion.
On 7/3/2004 at 2:59pm, ADGBoss wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
dewey wrote: Thanks.
I have a vague feeling that exploring such a practical issue in roleplaying is somewhat decadent. Feminism is not an issue to be explored by those involved, it's an issue of day-to-day reality. If someone wants to KNOW something (or many things) about it, then there are lots of poeple, websites, organizations, etc. to ask.
But, then, it's only my opinion.
Dewey,
I would totally disagree unless critical thinking has somehow become decadent. Role Playing itself could be considered an indulgetn decadence by some I suppose. It does not have to be all about slaying dragons though. Adressing real world issues can be quite liberating adn thought provoking and I would have no problem participating in an RPG session or even campaign that addressed serious issues. Breaking out of old modes is what the Forge is for.
Juts my 2 lunars and as the others have said, welcome to the Forge.
Sean
On 7/3/2004 at 7:46pm, dewey wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
ADGBoss wrote: Breaking out of old modes is what the Forge is for.
When a black person gets beaten up in a dark street and, in response, two passers-by decide to make a tabletop game or a roleplaying game about the discrimination of black people, it feels weird for me. And certainly does not seem a breaking out of old models.
Sorry for being rude.
On 7/3/2004 at 8:42pm, greyorm wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
So, what, we can't confront racism in role-playing games?
Someone tell RA Salvatore and all the Forgotten Realms fanatics that role-playing discrimination against dark elves is wrong and cheapens racism...for that matter, someone go tell Hollywood that movies that deal with issues of racism are just decadent and purposeless, and they shouldn't even be creating entertainment around such issues!
On 7/3/2004 at 10:45pm, dewey wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
greyorm wrote: So, what, we can't confront racism in role-playing games?
I never said anything about cans or can'ts, so I don't understand your anger. I said it is weird for me to design a roleplaying game about it.
greyorm wrote: ... someone go tell Hollywood that movies that deal with issues of racism are just decadent and purposeless
There's a "slight" difference in Hollywood making a film about racism, and making a roleplaying game about racism (or feminism). A film is a powerful tool to convey an idea (ie. that racism is bad) to the masses, while, I think, RPGs aren't. And that's because most people play for fun. And this means that making an RPG about feminism or racism achieves nothing to help the problem of feminism or racism, though, of course, it is not bad, either.
So, as I see it, it's just an empty gesture.
On 7/4/2004 at 12:13am, Matt Wilson wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
When a black person gets beaten up in a dark street and, in response, two passers-by decide to make a tabletop game or a roleplaying game about the discrimination of black people, it feels weird for me. And certainly does not seem a breaking out of old models.
Hey Dewey:
What's your assumption, though? That a game about feminism or race awareness involves someone being victimized? Bleah.
Empowerment works just as well, if not better. Consider this game.
Granted, you can't guarantee that anyone who plays such a game won't be a complete tool. But that goes for any kind of media that promotes race awareness or feminism or anything similar. You can only lead them to the water, so the saying goes.
On 7/4/2004 at 12:29am, dewey wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
Matt Wilson wrote: What's your assumption, though? That a game about feminism or race awareness involves someone being victimized?
I don't understand why people want to put words into my mouth I never said, or put ideas into my mind I never expressed.
I stated clearly:
dewey wrote: And this means that making an RPG about feminism or racism achieves nothing to help the problem of feminism or racism, though, of course, it is not bad, either.
So, as I see it, it's just an empty gesture.
There were no hidden assumptions, accusations, anything. I said what I meant.
What's not clear in this quote?
How on Earth could you squeeze "a game about feminism or race awareness involves someone being victimized" into what I said?
I can't help, but quote myself again, emphasized:
... though, of course, it is not bad, either.
On 7/4/2004 at 12:44am, dewey wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
Oh, I see.
dewey wrote: When a black person gets beaten up in a dark street and, in response, two passers-by decide to make a tabletop game or a roleplaying game about the discrimination of black people, it feels weird for me. And certainly does not seem a breaking out of old models.
OK. This means that those people won't help the beaten person by making an rpg about discrimination. Making an rpg is not real help, just a self-delusion of help, however good the intention is.
Is that what you understood differently?
On 7/4/2004 at 12:56am, dewey wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
james_west:
Are you angry with me because I think that making an rpg about feminism won't help the cause of feminism?
On 7/4/2004 at 1:32am, Christopher Weeks wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
dewey wrote: james_west:
Are you angry with me because I think that making an rpg about feminism won't help the cause of feminism?
Out of curiosity, what would make you come up with this? I suspect that James isn't reading the Forge right now. The last post to this thread before it was ressurected was 4.5 months old.
Chris
On 7/4/2004 at 1:36am, greyorm wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
Dewey,
The whole "Are you angry?" and "I don't understand your reaction" bit is a dead end discussion. After all, you apologize for being rude, then turn around and well, whine about rudeness from others. As such, it isn't a subject even worth discussing because it can go nowhere.
dewey wrote: making a roleplaying game about racism (or feminism).
Honestly, it sounds to me alot like you're confusing "making a game about racism" with "making a game of racism." That is, you think that because it exists in the context of a "game" it is somehow belittling to this "serious" issue.
A film is a powerful tool to convey an idea (ie. that racism is bad) to the masses, while, I think, RPGs aren't...And that's because most people play for fun.
Most people go to the movies for fun (ie: movies are made for purposes of entertainment). Hence, movies aren't a good medium for conveying an idea to the masses...at least according to the same logic you're using with RPGs.
So, you can think what you want about games not being a good medium for such-and-such, but I think your question about "why is it done" has been answered.
(BTW, you do know that games are used as socialization devices by societies, right? They aren't "just for fun" or simply have one 'obvious' purpose or affect upon a player.)
On 7/4/2004 at 5:27pm, dewey wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
whine about rudeness from others.
I wasn't whining. I don't know where you got this idea from.
That is, you think that because it exists in the context of a "game" it is somehow belittling to this "serious" issue.
Once again:
dewey wrote: ... And this means that making an RPG about feminism or racism achieves nothing to help the problem of feminism or racism, though, of course, it is not bad, either.
So, as I see it, it's just an empty gesture.
That's what I think, for the third time. Is that such a difficult paragraph?
On 7/4/2004 at 7:10pm, AnyaTheBlue wrote:
Empty gesture?
Hi, Dewey!
dewey wrote: There's a "slight" difference in Hollywood making a film about racism, and making a roleplaying game about racism (or feminism). A film is a powerful tool to convey an idea (ie. that racism is bad) to the masses, while, I think, RPGs aren't. And that's because most people play for fun. And this means that making an RPG about feminism or racism achieves nothing to help the problem of feminism or racism, though, of course, it is not bad, either.
So, as I see it, it's just an empty gesture.
I personally disagree that this is an empty gesture. Here's why.
While a movie/tv show/broadway musical/book/comic book/rock song/whatever may be a more powerful tool for conveying an idea to the masses, that doesn't mean that less powerful tools should be completely ignored in favor of the more powerful one. It doesn't follow that a less effective means of communication implies an empty gesture.
Not everybody can make a movie. Not everyone can write a novel. But some of those people who can't make movies can write RPGs.
And some people who hate 'chick' movies, or would never read a book about gender issues, might play an RPG which had them embedded.
To me, beating things like discrimination requires not just saying 'This is bad' to the masses, but saying 'This is bad' when three people are sitting around and one of them says something bigotted. RPGs might not be good in the first instance, but they are good in the second, more personal, context.
You might argue that RPGs are such a niche that they can have no impact on society as a whole, and that people ought to be putting their efforts in other areas. Well, okay, I can see that. But it doesn't change the fact that the gaming culture, of which most of us here on the Forge are active members in, is a subculture of it's own. And to an extent, you can see this kind of thing as an effort to "keep our neighborhood clean".
Gamers game. A good way to communicate with gamers is therefore with games. If gamers are racist and/or misogynistic and/or homophobic, well, a game about those things, while it may not impact Society At Large, may well impact gamers profoundly.
I don't see that as empty, personally.
On 7/4/2004 at 11:02pm, Akos Szederjei wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
Remarkable notion to say one builds a RPG to battle social problems. Commendable, but I so not think this is the most efficient approach. Naturally, RPGs includes social problems, but is it, or should be the real aim, or the primary aim of an RPG?
I applaud all souls, who try to better our society whoever and wherever he/she is. If one creates an RPG about feminism in a proper way, it will do good without question. Yet, I think Dewey was misunderstood (beside the fact that I am not sure who was rude, but lets leave that for the moderator). He did not state a RPG about feminism will cause "someone being victimized".
I think Dewey meant, there are more efficient tools to tackle this issue. Why not aid women-help group? The hours one spends on designing a game would be well spent there.
Of course in the end, it is a personal decision.
Christopher Weeks wrote:
Out of curiosity, what would make you come up with this?
Courtesy, good will to name a few.
Christopher Weeks wrote:
The last post to this thread before it was ressurected was 4.5 months old.
I am sure the moderator is a big boy and handled this issue accordingly.
greyorm wrote:
Most people go to the movies for fun
Hmm, I am not most people than. Beside the arguable fact, that movies are worse than RPGs to convey a message, movies are neither the most efficient way to tackle social problems.
But let me formulate in other way: you play RPGs for what reason then? Moral obligation? To combat social problems ?
I play it for fun too, so for me RPGs would have the same problem.
AnyaTheBlue wrote:
I don't see that as empty, personally.
OK, empty is bit much, I agree with you. Can we compromise, that there are more efficient way to change the world than writing an RPG about a problem?
I was under the assamption that Sorcerer was a game in which we have fun and tackle some moral question (in that order). Another formulation: we play it for fun, and the moral question is a tool for it (which can be useful without doubt).
Now, the reply below seem to indicate that Sorcerer moralist game, which aims to tackle problems in the real world. I am confused...
I mean it is cool to be a world-shaking sorcerer, and face moral dilemmas. But I think the cool parts dominate, before the moral dilemmas. Of course it depends on the group, but still I play it for the fun.
Akos Szederjei
On 7/4/2004 at 11:51pm, dewey wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
AnyaTheBlue wrote: While a movie/tv show/broadway musical/book/comic book/rock song/whatever may be a more powerful tool for conveying an idea to the masses, that doesn't mean that less powerful tools should be completely ignored in favor of the more powerful one. It doesn't follow that a less effective means of communication implies an empty gesture.
Not everybody can make a movie. Not everyone can write a novel. But some of those people who can't make movies can write RPGs.
Yes, that's unarguably true. However, I need to correct what I said, because it wasn't exactly what I meant. But, this is not only about feminism, so I'm going to open a new topic for that and continue there. When it's done, I'll put here the link.
Here it is: Current social issues in RPGs
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 126791
On 7/5/2004 at 10:37pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Feminist game design II (split)
The above posts were split from Feminist game design.
Dewey, welcome, and please review the site etiquette sticky post at the top of the Site Discussion forum. This site is pretty different from most internet forums.
Everyone who's posted, especially long-timers, please reflect privately on your interactions in this thread.
Best,
Ron
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 9738