From what I have heard about Trollbabe’s mechanics and metagame system, It strikes me as something I might want to get in on… but the whole ‘Troll+babe’ thing leaves me a bit cold (even if I enjoy the heck out of the comic).

Is this hardwired into the game’s mechanics, or can they be easily ported over to other settings or types of characters?

Also, Ron’s recent comment about basing some of the game’s concepts on his observation of ‘girlfriend gamers’ makes me think this might be the perfect game to entice my wife (a very rare gamer) further into the gaming fold.

How easy if Trollbabe for semi- to non-gamers to digest and play?

Thanks

-Ben

Hi there,

You are raising two extremely different issues, and I suggest that they aren't as compatible as one might think.

1. Trollbabe for people who don't role-play, who might like to, but who might be suspicious of gamer culture/interactions. They might even have tried to play, then discovered that everyone's enthusiasm about "oh boy! we get to turn to crit-hit table 4!" wasn't at all interesting.

(This outlook is very often mistaken for a combat/no-combat preference dichotomy, which it emphatically is not. Combat is merely the arena of imagined activity during which, in most games, the real mis-match is occurring.)

I suggest that Trollbabe is emphatically written precisely for these people, and that any of its features which a gamer might consider "advanced gaming" (e.g. narration rights) are actually normal and typical human creative features which most RPG texts have stripped out or ignored.

The challenge in playing Trollbabe is not "role-playing in this weird and funny way" but rather in de-gamerizing oneself, to keep from screwing up the experience for oneself and others.

2. Trollbabe for people who don't flash on the appeal of the trollbabe imagery and setting. You know something? This is gonna hurt ...

Gamer power-fantasy characters are actually intensely off-putting to most people. Vampire-werewolf hybrids ... effete but deadly goth romantic killers like Vicious in Cowboy Bebop ... power-armored cyber-pilots with flashing grins ... equipment which snaps together in any way at all ... a bandolier of spells which can do this, and do this, and do this too ...

... just lose it. All that flash and all that motion is essentially ADD fetishism, by most people's standards. You know how the eighteenth kick-maneuver in a Jet Li film is just as cool as the first one? Not to most people. By then, they're bored. They are normal, we are weird.

(Note: this is often mistaken for some kind of non-gamer distaste for violence and sexuality, or for cartoonism. That is not the case; most people like violence, sexuality, and cartoonism. What they don't usually like is fetishism.)

Trollbabe's different. It's not about options, and it's not about flash. In fact, it's kind of grimly and arrogantly underground. Underground is different from pop. To be into pop stuff, you're a fan; to be into underground stuff, you're a fellow ideologue.

So my claim, BW, is that your confusion/mismatch the trollbabe idea/imagery is a totally separate issue from a non-gamer or semi-gamer's potential confusion with role-playing per se.

I suggest that if you want to play Trollbabe with your wife, that the only thing that will permit it to work is if you leave your gamer-tweak over-the-top "let's do it this way" habits aside. Trollbabe, only with half-vampire hybrids? Trollbabe, only set in the far future where everyone has a nanotech implant? Trollbabe, only with eighteen styles of kung fu to choose from?

Nope. Just Trollbabe. It'll only work if she flashes on the underground side of it. She likes the cover? Likes the illustrations where the trollbabe tells the troll, don't eat these sheep? Comes up with a trollbabe's hairstyle in 1.2 seconds? That's the basis for the game, and it's there for a reason. It's stripped down, straightforward, and based exactly on what I've observed literally hundreds of semi-gamers to want to do.

Trust the game, man. More than any other game or proto-game I've written, every feature and detail is there for a reason and integrated with all the others.

Best,
Ron

Er... I should have been more clear.

I was asking two, entirely separate questions (the second one popped into my head after I had written the first).

I think the entirely unmodified Trollbabe package would be perfect for my wife and where she is coming from- what you say above is pretty much spot on which my gaming experiences with her thus far. Groovy- I think you've made a sale on this point alone.

The first question was one based entirely on my personal preferences, and didn't relate to the second at all- is the "Troll" and the "Babe" integral and inseparable from everything that makes the game work? "Trollbabes" are neither human nor troll, and become points of interface/conflict/action between the two worlds... is it this half-breed status which is important, or the actual 'troll' and 'babe' which you need?

Thanks,

-Ben

Hi Ben,

The halfbreed status is pretty much the "kick" that assures that player characters will become involved in much drama, whether they want to be or not, but I think the female role also does a lot for the game as well.

I've noted that players(both male and female) play female characters differently than male characters. First, the characters tend to be more social, and second, folks tend to avoid the masochistic "tough it out" gamer thing as much. I think for guys it might help disengage the male ego a bit, but I really need to watch it more often to really call it.

Chris

Hiya,

Here's where I'm coming from with the troll & babe thing(s).

1. The half-and-half status is actually the least important thing. People who want to adapt it to Dhampyr or whatever type stuff, because it's about "trapped between two worlds," are way off the mark. The only purpose the half-and-half status serves is to make the protagonist relevant and interesting to everyone she meets in some way.

Key concept: the target role-player wants his or her character to matter to NPCs. The halfiness is only a bit-part in this concept.

2. The troll stuff is about a few different things. One of them is strength. The trollbabe is not "just a stripling" who can only dream about physical or magic effectiveness. She kicks ass, case closed. This is 100% antithetical to the typical RPG situation in which the non/semi-gamer is told, "One of these days, your character could be really powerful!" as if that were good news.

(Note that power is relative. White Wolf heads, pay attention next time your girlfriend picks a bunch of powers for her vampire or mage-ess, then watch her face fall when you-as-GM introduce the really tough NPCs who will be her mentors, tormentors, and so on. Yeah. Losing points = you.)

Another aspect of the troll stuff is alienation - the sense of being different. This is why trollbabes aren't a race. They aren't even a "breed." In fact, they aren't defined in the game-world at all! All they are is a "look and feel," and specifically a non-compromising one. A trollbabe cannot disguise herself. She cannot put herself aside. She cannot objectify herself into someone else's category, no matter how much they do.

And hence it's not alienation after all - it's identity, and since the game doesn't tell you what being a trollbabe "is," it's your identity to own. In other words, in Trollbabe (and unlike every RPG your non/semi gamer friend has probably encountered) you really do get to play your character.

3. The babe stuff is a big deal. Female, everyone, trollbabes are female. They have tits, and those tits sag and bounce, off to the sides like real ones do (see illos in book). They also have haunches and abdomens that slope down into female crotches. Trollbabes are females that cannot be marginalized as such; the game is asking, very bluntly, "And what would you do with being female, if you weren't being marginalized?"

That's the underground thing, as opposed to the pop thing. Imagine that you're reading an underground comic - and here's this trollbabe in the first panel, walking along. Whoa! You know that by the end of the first page, you will discover whether the author & artist "gets" femaleness or not. You know that the character will either be a stupid caricature, a clever caricature, a jerk-off fantasy, or (shock) an actual female character of whatever depth, but with verve.

If the creator got it right, then you will be hooked like a snake just to see what the character does next, when faced with adversity or opportunity.

Guys: this is why your girlfriends and wives keep picking up your comics and your RPG books, and leafing through the illustrations. And it's why nearly all the time, they groan and put it aside. Or why sometimes, vastly to your confusion, they like someone like Faye in Cowboy Bebop ("Why not Julia?" you ask, puzzled and clueless; I'll just let you suffer).

Trollbabe allows the player, male or female, to "get it" if he or she can. I've seen it happen a dozen times, easily - 3/4 of the way through character creation, the player is twitching with eagerness, and before I'm done with three sentences into the first scene, he or she is blazing away because there is no question about what this trollbabe is going to do next. It's a wave-front of gratification at finally being able to see it done (i.e. to do it) right.

Best,
Ron

Thanks, that is pretty much exaclty what I wanted to know.

So the answer to my topical question- "how versatile is it?"- would be "not very, but this is exaclty as intended."

I can deal with that.

If Sarah likes the looks of it (I pointed her to the website and comics) I'll order up a copy soonest.

-Ben

Ron Edwards wrote:

2. Trollbabe for people who don't flash on the appeal of the trollbabe imagery and setting. You know something? This is gonna hurt ...

Gamer power-fantasy characters are actually intensely off-putting to most people. Vampire-werewolf hybrids ... effete but deadly goth romantic killers like Vicious in Cowboy Bebop ... power-armored cyber-pilots with flashing grins ... equipment which snaps together in any way at all ... a bandolier of spells which can do this, and do this, and do this too ...

... just lose it. All that flash and all that motion is essentially ADD fetishism, by most people's standards. You know how the eighteenth kick-maneuver in a Jet Li film is just as cool as the first one? Not to most people. By then, they're bored. They are normal, we are weird.

(Note: this is often mistaken for some kind of non-gamer distaste for violence and sexuality, or for cartoonism. That is not the case; most people like violence, sexuality, and cartoonism. What they don't usually like is fetishism.)

Bailywolf wrote: So the answer to my topical question- "how versatile is it?"- would be "not very, but this is exaclty as intended."

I can deal with that.

So, coming in late here, but, don't listen to the game's designer. He's biased in its favor. ;)

Seriously, Trollbabe is very versatile in terms of color, not so versatile in terms of meaning. Basically, Trollbabe will work well as long as your protagonists are beings that other people will try to manipulate. I honestly really don't like Trollbabes. I've played the game with trollbabes. Two of the times were multi-session campaigns, the other time was a one-shot. I really enjoy my current Vampire game and and the old Demi-gods game a lot more. For a lot of people, there's a whole "cheesyness" factor associated with the trollbabes that has nothing at all to do with the way the game playes mechanically. So, if the people you're gonna play with are bothred by the cheesyness factor, you can change the trappings of the game, without changing the meaning.

Fucking heathens.

Best,
Ron

(hee! I love not being "general moderator" in this forum)

Hi,

I think y'all are missing the point. The half-breed issue serves to ensure drama within the setting of Trollbabe. It simplifies the usual splat issues you have with Clans, Orders, Tribes, or whatever from being 1 out of 7 to 12, to simply being caught between 2 groups.

In actuality, if you're going to play TB in a different setting, the half-breed issue becomes moot. Likewise with other people's concerns with your character.

A few months ago, I ran a Streetfighter game using Trollbabe, and it worked just fine. Everyone involved knew the genre expectations, and so, we already knew what were the sources of conflict(rivalries, bullying, teenage romance). There was no need to further inject reason to start the drama.

Trollbabe, due to the fact that it neither has a strong established "genre", nor heavy on the background setting, uses the halfbreed issue as the most concise set-up for conflict and why these particular characters KEEP getting caught up in it, aside from personal nosiness and pluck.

Chris

Heathens, indeed. I have to agree with all the heathens so far on this thread.

Despite Ron's claims, Trollbabe works excellently in any setting where the PCs, as Ron says, matter to the NPCs, for whatver reasons (which can be the halfbreed thing, but doesn't have to be). It's notable you can have all the elements Ron mentions -- strength, alienation, identity, and "babe stuff"-- without Trollbabes. Those themes are all classic. It's the same reason you can play Sorcerer where the "demons" are actually robots, so long as you get the themes right.

So, yes, you can de-couple the Trollbabes from the system, but only if you're careful what you replace them with.

A few months ago, I ran a Streetfighter game using Trollbabe, and it worked just fine. Everyone involved knew the genre expectations, and so, we already knew what were the sources of conflict(rivalries, bullying, teenage romance).

Ron Edwards wrote: Fucking heathens.

Best,
Ron

I've been watching old Angel episodes on disk, so maybe I've got Angel on the brain, but I think an Angel-style game would be excellently served by Trollbabe.

Angel is a Trollbabe.

ethan_greer wrote: Angel is a Trollbabe.

Neato.

How about 'Wizkids' about powerful but young magical prodigies? Not adults, but not quiet kids, as powerful as Wizards, but perhaps not as wise. Important to the adult world for many different reasons- the affection of parents, the manipulation of devious senior sorcerers, the fear of the mundane populace, the respect of grown-up wizkids... important to other kids as role-models, friends, or rivals. A normally marginalized class of people- preadolescents- with the power and strength not to be marginalized, ignored, or abused if they choose to exert it.

Ron- I entirely dig what you are saying, so please don't interpret these questions as me not 'getting' your whole Trollbabe mojo. Its just the more I like a game, the more I like to monkey with it.

Thanks all- you've sold me Trollbabe.

-Ben

Hi Andy,

Correct, we changed magic to Chi Powers and altered the specialities. The key point in what I'm saying is that using actual Trollbabes works for all the reasons Ron points out, if you are using that setting... it's a quick and easy way to establish things to non-gamers.

Now, all the other setting ideas, like Planescape or Vampire, etc. work ONLY if everyone "gets" the gist of it. If you slap down 120 pages of necessary reading into the setting, most new folks will simply not play. The reason any of the other settings work(mine as well) is because you're primarily dealing with folks who have genre familiarity. Without that, it becomes an uphill battle to communicate the setting to new players.

The other big feature of TB's setting as stands is that it is divorced enough from any other mass media pop genre, to where its also free of the genre expectations that come with it. In D&D, you expect crazy wizards, dank dungeons, a lich and a dragon. They pretty much HAVE to show up for it to be D&D. With vampires, there has to be angsty romance.

With TB, there's... um, well, yeah. There's no set genre expectations, added with the unique character, not only do you have a blank slate to play your character, you also have a pretty blank slate to define the world. Notice that in the pictures, you have Trollbabes, humans, or trolls. There's no giant dragons, serpents, or undead running about. In the text we get a brief mention that weird stuff is about, but no definition. It's up to you and your group to draw that for themselves. Ron pretty much designed everything to be a frame, and you provide the picture.

Chris

I do see the payoff in play of the specific definitions that Ron puts in Trollbabes, and how trying to change what a Trollbabe is removes something of the appeal. Ron seemed a little presumptious on why people wouldn't want to play Trollbabes, as I think there's a myriad of reasons that people are uncomofrtable with playing Trollbabes.

The thing about Trollbabe is that like Sorcerer, its very focused on creating the type of play that it professes through every choice of the game design, but contains some revoloutinary, very fun ideas that may be used more generally.

People who dig the concept behind Trollbabe first and foremost benefit the most, they get a game system that translates it clearly to actual play.

But there are alot of people that are attracted to those fun ideas without being totally sold on the concept. And they can use the rules to have fun. It just isn't likely to get that Zen moment where you, the other players, and the game designer know exactly what you want to do and do it without any hurdles whatsoever.

sirogit wrote: But there are alot of people that are attracted to those fun ideas without being totally sold on the concept. And they can use the rules to have fun. It just isn't likely to get that Zen moment where you, the other players, and the game designer know exactly what you want to do and do it without any hurdles whatsoever.

Personally I keep running into the idea of adapting Trollbabe to noir as I think the reroll mechanics lend themselves nicely to the detective genre. Replace magic with 'investigate' or 'hunch' or some such and you get players elegantly creating the clue path for Sam Spade that is so normally tedious to go through in your run of the mill RPG. On top of that, the relationship mechanics are perfect parralels to the kind of entanglements those tough guy PIs are always roping themselves into. I haven't sat down and done it yet, but it's certainly in the back of my mind.

-Tim

P.S. - I love Trollbabe as it stands as well. Ron pushes a whole lot of angles with this game, and monkeying with it will often remove some of those angles. The big one that's often stripped off is the 'babe' portion, and Ron (from what I've gathered via posts and just from talking to him) is really wedded towards pushing against that particular button. I think it's a worthwhile button to push, and people ought to run the game straight just to see how it resonates unmodded.

Hey Tim,

I'm a noir fiend, so if you work something up I'll find some people and force them to play test it with me. Get crackin'!


-Chris

C. Edwards wrote: Hey Tim,

I'm a noir fiend, so if you work something up I'll find some people and force them to play test it with me. Get crackin'!


-Chris

I finally have Trollbabe, and have been devouring it like a fiend...

I was struck by how excellent a Kung-Fu chopsocky game it could make... or a Lord of the Rings (movie-flavor) game.

I didn't get a sense that mechanics were somehow melded into setting... you would get a different kind of dynamic if everyone in the game is a martial artist rather than a Trollbabe, but it wouldn’t be a better or worse game...just different.

For a Middle Earth kind of thing, you replace Magic with Lore and it becomes a catchall for magical objects, secret knowledge, actual spells and invocations, or mesmeritic power (depending on your Specialty). Fighting remains unchanged, as does Social.

The Remembered Spell reroll can be used to activate a magical object you carry around.

The Ring is a relationship for all who have come into contact with it.

Social would be based on the higher of Fighting and Lore.


For a Kung Fu game, I’m not sure what you would do with Magic... its all about Fighting after all. Perhaps breaking it into Hard and Soft? Or simply ditching it and making it Kung Fu and Social (roll over, or roll under).

Remembered Spell becomes Secret Technique


Ron- thanks for writing this gem. I'll have a blast running it as-is, and another entirely separate blast fiddling with the system.

-B

How about when you are doing those ' Crouching Tiger,Hidden Dragon abilities like running up walls and balancing on a blade of grass that aren't actually fighting. If your character was a ninja then magic might be 'ninja training' and it might deal with stuff like 'melding with the darkness' or 'ninja gadgets'....
Its interesting to note that 'magic' abilitites scale bsed on the scale of the adventure so their range of effects depends on how important what is going on is.....

Hmmm... How about Fighting, Wuxia, and Social?

Wuxia for all that mystic-fu stuff... and Wuxia+Fighting battles would be of the bamboo-forest or water-skipping type. Otherwise, Wuxia is used for mystical/sneaky stuff (meditation, awareness, athleticism, sneaking etc)

Golden Sword Wan
Number: 5
Fighting: 1-4 (Sword)
Wuxia: 6-10 (Lightfoot)
Social: 1-5 (Charming)
Carries: A sword of quality in a well-worn sheath.
Costume: A simple long tunic and robe, trousers, and walking slippers.
Looks: A quietly charming man. He wears his hair in a long qeue.

-B

Bailywolf wrote: Hmmm... How about Fighting, Wuxia, and Social?

Wuxia for all that mystic-fu stuff... and Wuxia+Fighting battles would be of the bamboo-forest or water-skipping type. Otherwise, Wuxia is used for mystical/sneaky stuff (meditation, awareness, athleticism, sneaking etc)

Golden Sword Wan
Number: 5
Fighting: 1-4 (Sword)
Wuxia: 6-10 (Lightfoot)
Social: 1-5 (Charming)
Carries: A sword of quality in a well-worn sheath.
Costume: A simple long tunic and robe, trousers, and walking slippers.
Looks: A quietly charming man. He wears his hair in a long qeue.

-B

I'm reading Bridge of Birds by Barry Hugart right now- the first in the Master Li and Number 10 Ox books (set in a "China that never was.").

Brilliant, and the Trollbabe system is the one to use for this kind of quirky, sneaky, and darkly funny work.

The three action types are Brawn, Guile, and Fight. You roll under your Number for Brawn, over for Guile, and the HIGHER of the two plus the number for Fight. Which ever one you favor determines your style of fighitng.

Compare Master Li and Numebr Ten Ox. Kao Li would have a 2, and would roll over it for going sneaky, devious, or clever things. His fighting is also devious, and his throwing kinves are deadly (Fight of 2-10). Ox is a big strapping honest peasant sort of lad who solves problems best with phsycial solutions. He would be an 8, and his fighting style is all main strength and raw power for which he rolls 1-8.

Less extreme characters are certainly possible, but unlike the tweked Trollbabe, this one favors extreme characters in two areas.

Something I was thinking about while walking back from lunch.

-B

Hmm. Ron comes in and suggests that Trollbabe only makes sense as written. This prompts a bunch of people to post about how it can be used for all sorts of things. Now, people will buy it to play whatever, and if it goes wrong, Ron can say, "Toldyaso!"

Well done, Ron, well done. :-)

Mike