I'm a freelancer and independent PDF game producer.
I prefer setting specific systems that fit the mood and style of play.
I have lots of ideas for off-the-wall and out there games.

However, I have to support myself as an individual and a business.

Completely independent games don't sell nearly half as well as d20 or OGL material.

I find this unsatisfying but it is a necessity to make money.

So, how to turn things around so that I get to write the games I _want_ to write and manage to make a margin from it?

How can the Indy community encourage the take up of non d20-derived material?

GRIM wrote: Completely independent games don't sell nearly half as well as d20 or OGL material.

Data? No. Personal observation? Plenty of it. He could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Hi Grim,

I'm sure some of the publishers here will point out that they do make a margin. Perhaps not enough to quit their day jobs, but they do make profit. And a couple of folks are doing reprints, or getting distribution through Alliance and other major distributors.

If your concern is profit, you shouldn't be looking to rpgs. Sorry, but true. Unless you have the ability to pour in enough money to do a superb marketing campaign, plus incredible presentation for a solid product, your profit isn't going to be big enough to warrant writing for a game system you're not into.

So now, the questions to ask yourself are:

-What are your expectations from publishing games, and are they realistic?

-What kind of games do I want to make, and do I really want to make them, or will I require constant encouragement?

Chris

No hard data, but what about:

TROS
Sorcerer
Swashbuckler
Fvlminata
Orkworld

And there are more indie games that are successful. I postulate that the reason indie games seem not to sell as well, is that most indie sales happen over the Net. They just aren't represented in mainstream game stores very well, or not at all. (See WOTC, who happen to be in alot of malls and sell to the more casual gamer.)

I own about 14 different games, 10 at least which I went online to purchase. I plan to buy a couple more that I've run into while on these forums. This indie community is definitely encouraging the use of non-D20 games...

Jonathan

First, remember that material released under the OGL doesn't necessarily have to be d20 (there is, however, a default expectation that it will be). For instance, portions of Formless will be released under the OGL (and Formless doesn't even make use of dice, let alone twenty-sided dice). Frankly, I'd really like to see more indie games released under the OGL.

Shouldn't this thread be under publishing?

Build up a reputation. Start with d20 and branch out as your customer base grows.

If, say, Monte Cook came up with a brand new RPG system, it would sell like crazy because he has the customer base and reputation.

There is hard data.

RPGNOW publishes information that relates to their sells. It does show that the D20 market is the dominate market, but it also shows that indie games at least sale.

Check this interview out with James from RPGNOW:

www.emeraldpress.net/emeraldnight/articles/article1i.htm

In it there are charts and such that shows some sales figures. Also they compile this data into the ePublishers Guide: www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1668

Second hand data is poor evidence I know, but in speaking with a rep for a major distributor, I was told than on average (through the three-tier system obviously) a new non-d20 game will be doing very good to sell over third of the number of copies of new d20 or OGL game.
That's about the hardest data I've got available.

Hello,
I have a friend that works with a company that makes a pretty good line of games. He told me that they made a new product, and put a D20 logo on it, and the book sold out almost immediately. He said the amount of book sales was equal to a years worth of sales of one of their other (non D20) books.

I think there are three choices for indie game makers:
1. Produce great products and hope to establish themselves so they can compete like the other non D20 companies (Rifts, GURPS, etc.).

2. Fall for the dark side and make their games compatible with D20, to boost their sales.

3. Just keep making great products and a modest profit and ignore the big companies.


It's probably just a marketing thing.


Just my $.02

Thanks for the commentary.

Please don't speculate on the sales figures, I do have hard data both from the RPGnow figures and directly from my own experience.

I'm trying to find an adequete balance between my artistic and commercial demands.

My aims?

My aim this year was to make more in turnover than I was getting in welfare (I was a .com casualty and there's been no work in my area for my skills for almost two years).

I am going to acheive that goal this coming month with still a third of the year to go.

Go me.

However, that is only a foundation upon which to build.

I _despair_ at the sheer unreasonable popularity of d20, which isn't a good system - certainly not for all genres - but it does, certainly, sell.

You can do innovative things to change it, alter it, mess around with it - I have - but you're still subscribing to and supporting the phenomenon, and that IS going to crash and burn like card games did (though possibly slower).

So, what to do?

I should love to write more completely indy material but where's the margin? What motivation do I have? Will people buy? Will people make an extra effort to support Indy-RPGs?

Hello,

Let me give you a couple of observations from the last year.

I routinely pull in $100-$300 a week in direct sales for Adept Press. This is simply the amount that hits my business checking account via my Paypal account. It is typically more than enough to cover my business expenses for present and future projects.

I pointed this out to a very well-known freelancer who writes extensively for companies which are often touted as the most successful in RPG history. His jaw dropped.

You see, he is very "successful." That means waiting for paychecks to arrive, and often not getting them until months after they were promised.* That also means calling the owner of a book he contributed to and asking (politely begging, really) whether it's going to receive more promotion. And finally, it means having no control whatsoever over what work actually goes into print, how it's edited, how it's laid out or otherwise treated artistically, and whose work accompanies it.

Sure, on paper he makes money. But that money's actual presence in his account, in a reliable fashion, is a real crapshoot. And creatively speaking, he feels as if "his work" rarely fully reaches the audience - and even when it does in terms of text, the management of the books might not achieve it.

It floored him to discover that I did not correspond to his notion of the hobbyist-publisher, whose work is fueled by artistic drive and who lives in a wretched garret, warmed only by his knowledge that he is pure from filthy money matters.

Nope, I'm a filthy stinking capitalist pig. Adept Press makes me money. There is no downside, not creatively and not financially, as long as one accepts that we are talking about running a business rather than a career. And I'm not alone in this, not by a long shot.

Grim, given your stated goals (which I think are very clear), here are a couple of points I think you might want to consider in detail, and really to gather data about before getting wrapped up in some irrelevant concerns.

1. D20 or not D20 (or to expand a little, OGL or not OGL) is a complete and thorough non-issue. Use it if you decide it's well-suited to your needs, don't if it's not. Very easy.

2. Presence in game stores is one venue of several available; it can be as important or central to your business plan as you want it to be. "Must ... get ... into ... stores!" should not be your primary concern, however. It's best considered as a form of promotion, except for a few exceptional retailers.

3. Approval or justification from others is never going to be possible, not as a starting point. You ask, "Why should I do this?" and I can only say, no one can tell you why you prefer something. The more so when you're not even sure. Whatever it is you decide to do, is what it is.

Best,
Ron

* Credit where it'd due: of the well-known high-volume RPG publishers, White Wolf is widely respected for paying freelancers fairly and on time.

Ron Edwards wrote:
1. D20 or not D20 (or to expand a little, OGL or not OGL) is a complete and thorough non-issue. Use it if you decide it's well-suited to your needs, don't if it's not. Very easy.

GRIM wrote:
I'm trying to find an adequete balance between my artistic and commercial demands.

I'm a little lost.

GRIM, what are you trying to do? Self publish? Or freelance to a publisher?

If you are freelancing to a publisher, how do you normally get paid? My understanding is that flat rate or some per/word basis is the standard. If that is correct, what difference does it make to you how much the project you freelance for eventually goes on to sell?

Is your thought that d20 products sell more and therefor d20 publishers can afford to pay you more for your freelance services?


That may or may not be true (I have no idea really, never having been a freelancer or hired freelance writers) but here are 2 thoughts.

1) Alot of independent publishers who sell none d20 product sell the majority of their copies direct, meaning they put a hell of alot more in their pocket per copy than going through distribution. Thus, numbers of copies sold does not necessarily translate into greater revenue to pay freelancers with.

2) The handful of indie publishers I have knowledge of have generally been very successful at reliably paying the freelancers they hire (typically art and layout rather than writers since most author their own work) at the agreed upon time and often in part up front. While the dollars offered may not be as high, surely there is some value in getting $500 for certain, vs. $1000 sometime...maybe...if you nag enough. How much value, of course, is up to the individual to judge for themselves.

"GRIM, what are you trying to do? Self publish? Or freelance to a publisher?"

I do both.

"If you are freelancing to a publisher, how do you normally get paid? My understanding is that flat rate or some per/word basis is the standard. If that is correct, what difference does it make to you how much the project you freelance for eventually goes on to sell?"

Usually flat rate, sometimes advance against royalties.
However, you'd be wrong to think once you get a flat payment sales don't make a difference.
Write something critically acclaimed or that sells like hot potatoes and you'll get more work and can command a better rate.

"Is your thought that d20 products sell more and therefor d20 publishers can afford to pay you more for your freelance services?"

No, my thought is that in my own produced products, more people do buy d20 offerings.

D20 PDFs sell more copies. Example:

The Whispering Vault (Released 3/16/2003) -- 130 copies
101 Collection (Released 4/26/2003) -- 292 copies

(if I may ask)

Is this only the core rulebook, or with the "Whispering Vaults collection 1"?

(I understood the "d20 sells better" part, I'm just surprised in the difference, especially for these items.)

Rorimack wrote: (if I may ask)

Is this only the core rulebook, or with the "Whispering Vaults collection 1"?

(I understood the "d20 sells better" part, I'm just surprised in the difference, especially for these items.)