Given the flexibility of which die to use, and the effect on conflict resolution, and balance between strong (high number of dice) and weak (low number of dice) pools, I'm curious to see what long term players of sorcerer use in their games, and why. Especially if they've spent time toying with a variety of dice rather than just starting and sticking with one type (I'd assume most likely d6's or d10's).

For a long time, I thought resolution was done with d6. When rolling d6, I was always frustrated by the low number of successes and the high number of discards that would appear. Switching to d10 increased the number of successes rolled by an individual since there was a greater range the results could fall into. I haven't really tried resolution rolls with any other die size, so no anecdotal data there.

What Raven says is statistically true. That is, the effect of lower dice is slightly less successes. Otherwise there's very little effect on the overall outcomes of relative differences in ability.

Here are a couple of threads in which it's disccussed:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6967
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=7628

I myself have only used D10s.

Mike

Hello,

I've used d10s in all my major games, but have used d6 and d20 in demo situations. The effective differences are covered pretty well here and in the previous threads.

Best,
Ron

d6's because they're the cheapest.

Ties increase handling time. All other factors being equal, I'd prefer any larger number of sides over any smaller number. But I've used d10s like everyone else because that's what everyone has. (And who wants to see fifteen thirty-siders go rolling off the table?)

Chris

At the weekend I bought every standard price d20 my games shop had, in preparation for Sorcerer.

However, on seeing

Ties increase handling time

In person, probably D10s since, like most people, that's what I have tons of (years of Storyteller and its clones). Haven't run one in person yet, however.

Online, my first game uses 12s 'cause I just like that number and the look of the die, even though I don't get to actually see them roll. I've also toyed with the idea of running a sorcerer game using a d13, 'cause of the whole superstition thing surrounding that number and the fact that, online, you don't need to worry about mathematically correct solids.

Hello,

Beware odd-sided dice. The Sorcerer system is built to run on even-sided dice; the d7 hadn't been invented (or I didn't know about it) when I wrote the system.

The system is built on the principle that the die sizes are merely subdivisions of d2 (coins). Odd-sided dice don't conform to this and shouldn't be used for Sorcerer.

Best,
Ron

KingOfFarPoint wrote: At the weekend I bought every standard price d20 my games shop had, in preparation for Sorcerer.

However, on seeing

Ties increase handling time

it belatedly strikes me that the scanning time to spot highest two digit roll might be noticably longer with a whole load of d20s than spotting the highest one digit values on the same number of d10s, and that this might outweight the effect of ties making d10s preferable.

Anyone in a position to actually comment on the difference between the two from experience?

KingOfFarPoint wrote:
However, on seeing

Ties increase handling time

it belatedly strikes me that the scanning time to spot highest two digit roll might be noticably longer with a whole load of d20s than spotting the highest one digit values on the same number of d10s, and that this might outweight the effect of ties making d10s preferable.

Ron wrote: Odd-sided dice [aren't multiples of d2] and shouldn't be used for Sorcerer.

Statistically, since Sorcerer is a "high numbers" game, it makes no difference whether the die-sides are odd or even; nothing in the mechanics is dependent upon whether the results are even or odd. Sooo, it doesn't matter...sorry, Ron.

Well good, you guys can talk to the smug monkey who emailed me with an elaborate argument for how my "any dice will do" claim was all screwed up.

Best,
Ron

Hey King- Up until now every game of Sorcerer I ran used d10s. I bought a bunch of d20s for this weekend's demo games of high-action Sorcerer. Insted of getting the pretty speckled dice (I'm a dice whore), I bought about 14 dice, half were white dice with black numbering, the rest were solid dark colors with white numbering. I wish they had more of the same die type.

Anyway, the speckly dice might throw you off for counting the highest number only if you have a bunch of different dice and they are all colored and speckled different- But that's true for d10s, etc too.

I'll be able to comment more on how successes turned out and the like after this weekend. Well, statistically I know what's supposed to happen, but still I'd like to see what the "side effects" are (see below)- The only thing that makes me hesitant about the d20s is this:

A couple weeks back, we played a 4-game Dread campaign. You're regularly rollying lots of d12s. They're rather "round", though not as round as the d20. Anyway, when you have a pile of 5 or more dice, they often bounce off each other and fly all over the table. That's the only thing I'm wary of.

But if it didn't bother you in Donjon, you're golden.

This is about the only thing I'm not worrying over as we're preparing to play Sorcerer for the first time. See, I worked at Chessex for a few years and have more dice than you can shake a stick at! :D

I will probably go with d10, although my group loves d20 (yeah and the game system of the same name).

TTFN,

Yokiboy

Hey Ron, do you still have that argument? I'd be interested to see what line of reasoning the 'smug monkey' used.

Hello again,

What about using D6s just for their stability, as they're stable and easier to move around the play area, while saving rolls during combat etc. The little we played with the system while creating characters for our first run, the D10s we were using rattled and rolled all over the place. What is the experience of more seasoned Sorcerer players?

With D6s you'll probably end up with less victories though, but on the other hand the handling time to spot what's been rolled should decrease. Eh, I just have to start playing this game so that I can decide for myself what I like or not. :p

TTFN,

Yokiboy

The problem with D6's is the high incendence of ties. You'll have a lot of marginal vicotories. Of course that might suit the flavor of your campaign.

Trevis.

OK, ran my wuxia gunslinging action Sorcerer setting at the Con last weekend- I'll post an Actual Play writeup when I can.

I used all d20s. I wasn't satisfied enough with the moderate amount of successes that my recent d10 rolling had been giving me- Not for this game, anyway. Note, that this observation is the equivalent of saying "My dice are cursed" with a straight face, so take it with 2 cc's of salt.

Outcome: Fan-fucking-tabulous in most regards - and again I wouldn't recommend it always, just for wild action, wild drama games. Rarely were you crossing off the highest die, looking for the "one die that was higher than the other guy's"- Just reading the top die was enough to let you know who won.

Rolling 8 dice vs 2 isn't such a guarantee of a Sure Win as it is using d10s, to be sure. It caught me off guard when a relatively huge pool of dice was knocked out by a single "18" or "20". But again, that's the flavor I chose and I rolled with the punches.

In other words, a player will choose an action ("I bluff the gunslinger - my 6 dice, 8 for the really cool way I just described it, vs his 2 dice"), as he does so you'll naturally let your brain think "OK, in the bag, start thinking 5 seconds ahead as to what happens"... and you may come up with a cool outcome. Then the dice come up, and the underdog won, forcing you to "hiccup", rewind your brain about 20 seconds, and pursue another path.

A small, small irritation. And again, I don't suggest d20s unless you're willing to have a 10 die roll potentially get slammed by a one die roll 10% or more of the time.

Amping abilites/rolls gets a little riskier too. It helps in d10 Sorcerer when you use a high-rated action to Amp, in the next roll, another action (using the Sorcerer Currency). You figure you have your player do something he's good at in the first "round" to amp something he's not good at in the second roll. Well, I had 2 Amps (of about 4 or 5) backfire in the course of a 3-hour adventure. Amping isn't the die-getter it is with d10s.

Hope that wasn't too vague.

-Andy

Over in the Anvilwerks forum, the dice used in Donjon (which uses the same roll V roll core die mechanics as Sorcerer- only with d20's by default) were kicked around- and if memory serves, there was talk of 'd02' or even/odd resolution. It turns into something like the Headcount resolution from GMS's UnderWorld. Throw a number of coins, count the heads, and compare to the heads the other guy throws.

Something I played with when using d6's was to give the winner all ties. This pumped the levels of success up pretty high. A 6, 6, 6, 5, 4, 3 vs a 6, 6, 6, 4, 4, 2 in standard Sorcerer would give you 1 Victory to the first guy. With winner-takes-ties, this would be 4 victories.

-Ben

Y'know, that's actually pretty interesting- I had the same thought a long, long time ago and totally forgot about it since. Thing is, if you use d6es or d4s, you could get some incredibly wild results right off the bat, even more than with the d20s...

-Andy

Hello,

You guys do remember that Sorcerer's core system's direct parent is Prince Valiant (1989), right? Underworld's system is essentially identical to Prince Valiant.

Or if you want to look at it this way, "Sorcerer using d2."

The Donjon variant is pretty interesting, but I think it would best apply to Sorcerergames in which character death isn't too likely even with death-potential damage (lasting penalties > 2x Stamina). I'm not sure if you guys are used to playing in games where a demon with Power 12 is likely to whack a player-character with Lethal Special Damage, but even using the standard Sorcerer rules, it's a very ugly thing. If ties go to the victor, I see a lot of dead characters in the future.

If I were to use that variant, then I'd do it in a genre in which taking that level of damage would be "correctable" in easier ways than modern day or low-tech historical.

Best,
Ron

How do the maths work out on the various die types? Has anyone charted them out?

-B