Topic: [Capes] Danger from the Shadows
Started by: LordSmerf
Started on: 7/18/2004
Board: Actual Play
On 7/18/2004 at 5:25am, LordSmerf wrote:
[Capes] Danger from the Shadows
So we played Capes tonight. I had a lot of fun, especially considering its half-finished state.
A little background: We had three players with me as the GM. We've all been playing RPGs together for a while and have known each other for 4+ years.
Our Heros were:
Zero, an insecure young man whose powers effect those around him.
and
The Roach, a man living below the poverty line.
We didn't really define the heros all that clearly, and we probably should have. It worked out fine anyway.
We started with a cover: "Zero stands in a ruined building looking around cautiously. Unseen by Zero, but seen by the audience is a shadowy figure with glowing red eyes in the shadows behind Zero."
The first page opened with an apartment building exploding violently and throwing Zero to the ground. Rubble rained down, some of it landing on Zero. A groan escapes from beneath the pile.
I'm really lazy and will forgo a highly detailed description. Essentially everything ran through a pair of 15 point conflicts. In the first conclict both Heroes racked up 5 or 6 debt and just barely defeated The Shadow.
Comments on play (note: some of these may due to misreading the rules):
1. Having the option to spend a 5 or 6 on gaining 2 points towards winning a conflict discourages people from using those points to take special actions.
2. Debts and Gambling seem a little clunky. Perhaps some more examples or a little bit of re-write could provide more focus here.
3. How do you attain the Session Wonder (how much until this session ends) if someone has attained 2 Wonder short of the target value? Start another conflict?
4. Having a Villain reveal things about himself instead of accruing debt is really cool. One of the players pointed out that the game needs some mechanic that reveals things about the Heroes. Without something like to do this, there is no reason to develop the Hero. We learned a decent amount about the Shadow this session, but we didn't really learn much about Zero or The Roach.
Overall we had a lot of fun, and we'd be willing to play again. Though in our opinion more than 3 heroes in a single game would probably be pretty cumbersome in play.
Thomas
On 7/18/2004 at 8:49am, LordSmerf wrote:
RE: [Capes] Danger from the Shadows
Oh, one other thing...
The game "felt" a lot better and truer to the source material when i was visualizing the action as a series of frames. I feel that requiring descriptions to encompass a number of frames equal to the number of dice spent for Wonders could really add a lot to the general atmosphere.
Thomas
On 7/18/2004 at 3:10pm, TonyLB wrote:
RE: [Capes] Danger from the Shadows
Wow... somebody played it. Cool! Thanks!
I like the frame idea. It's an interesting structure to help people with their narration. I could see some fun interactions with different comic styles, too... like a Manga-version where each frame is a different point of view on the same dramatic moment (reaction shots from other characters, the sweat on the opponent's brow, etc.)
1. Having the option to spend a 5 or 6 on gaining 2 points towards winning a conflict discourages people from using those points to take special actions.
I suspect that is a miscommunication. A five or six only gains 1 Wonder Point, whether you use a special action or not. I'm pretty sure I understand which section you're talking about (in the example when Smogzilla spends two Wonder Points but only achieves one Wonder Level because of a complication that drains his effectiveness), and I can make it clearer.
2. Debts and Gambling seem a little clunky. Perhaps some more examples or a little bit of re-write could provide more focus here.
Cool. Good to know. I'll work on it.
3. How do you attain the Session Wonder (how much until this session ends) if someone has attained 2 Wonder short of the target value? Start another conflict?
There are a couple of options: The minion who pops up attempting some last vengeance. Or a non-combat Epilogue. I'm currently thinking through how to apply the mechanic to the non-powered interpersonal scenes that are such a foundation in many comics... hopefully I'll be able to make better recommendations when I've got an idea on that.
4. Having a Villain reveal things about himself instead of accruing debt is really cool. One of the players pointed out that the game needs some mechanic that reveals things about the Heroes.
That's solid thinking. Consider it stolen.
Once again, thank you for testing and thanks for your feedback! If I may ask some questions:
Was the concept of buying Wonders confusing or offputting in practice? I've had a lot of people in my local gaming group give me quizzical looks as I described it, so I worry.
How much variation did you see in how people spent their dice pools? Were they always rolling the whole pool, or did strategies evolve about how many dice to roll, when?
How did you work out turn order, given that you had two heroes? I dodged the question in my example by having it solo, but I know it's an issue. Did everyone roll at once, and declare Wonders as the success pools varied? Or did you sequence it as two player-vs.-Editor rolls? Or something else?
On 7/18/2004 at 5:52pm, LordSmerf wrote:
RE: [Capes] Danger from the Shadows
First, some more questions. Then i'll give you some answers.
1. How do you determine how many dice to start a villain with? In the example Smogzilla starts with 10... why?
2. If you control a Complication does it still hinder you?
3. Is there any mechanics reason to resolve a complication that you started? From the example, was there really any need for Smogzilla to begin resolution of the Helicopter or the Building?
I have a suggestion regarding number 3. You get Wonder Points equal to the number of points you have in control of a Complication (regardless of how many your opponent has) when you resolve it. This will make high value Complications hotly contested, it also makes you deal with complications since there's no clear reason to do so at the moment since the dice you spend go towards victory no matter what effect they have.
TonyLB wrote: I suspect that is a miscommunication. A five or six only gains 1 Wonder Point, whether you use a special action or not. I'm pretty sure I understand which section you're talking about (in the example when Smogzilla spends two Wonder Points but only achieves one Wonder Level because of a complication that drains his effectiveness), and I can make it clearer.
I think you are right, i misread that and didn't realize that two dice had been spent.
You want answers? Fine... :)
TonyLB wrote: Was the concept of buying Wonders confusing or offputting in practice? I've had a lot of people in my local gaming group give me quizzical looks as I described it, so I worry.
I sort of explained how Wonder Level buying worked as we played, so i never provided a single coherent explaination. However i think everyone involved enjoyed it to some degree. I really liked it. I think my favorite moment was when the Shadow ran off, rolled really well, and got his Second Wind. Only to be chased down and immediately hit with Massive Overkill (in the form of a falling elephant).
TonyLB wrote: How much variation did you see in how people spent their dice pools? Were they always rolling the whole pool, or did strategies evolve about how many dice to roll, when?
We pretty much just rolled all of our dice all the time. There doesn't seem to be a statistical reason to ever hold back. The only thing that might make you hold back is thinking "one bad roll could really screw me," but then again one good roll can really help (like the time the Shadow rolled all 12 of his dice and go 7 successes, 5 of which were 6s). I can't really think of a solution to this. Essentially, statistically X number of dice will produce the same number of successes if they are rolled until they are all gone whether you roll them all at once or one at a time.
TonyLB wrote: How did you work out turn order, given that you had two heroes? I dodged the question in my example by having it solo, but I know it's an issue. Did everyone roll at once, and declare Wonders as the success pools varied? Or did you sequence it as two player-vs.-Editor rolls? Or something else?
Some stuff i kind of made up as i went, but essetially we went in the order specified in the rules: most dice remaining gets to decide to act, pass, or end the turn. Basicly what i did was check before the roll and before activating Powers and Attitudes how many dice everyone had available. Going from fewest to most we activated Powers and Attitudes (providing an advantage to the player with the most dice at start). Then re-checking available dice we declared how many we were rolling (again fewest to most). Finally, whoever had the most dice in front of him after the roll got to act first. If there was a tie for most dice then you were not allowed to end the turn and had to pass, if the person you passed to passed, it would be handed to the next guy down the pole. Essentially if the villain has more dice than any of the Heroes he can end the turn, if he's tied with one they both get to act. It's a little cumbersome, and could use some rules written to cver it.
One other note: we did share control of Complications. The Villain had however many points he put into it while the Heroes shared the points they put into it.
Thomas
On 7/18/2004 at 8:34pm, LordSmerf wrote:
RE: [Capes] Danger from the Shadows
One other thing that needs clarification (at least i don't remember seeing this adressed in the rules):
Setting Drive values. Can i have a Drive at 0? (I assume not since it could never rise). Do Drives increase by 1 at the conclusion of every Bet in which the Wager is the value of the Drive itself? How many points do you allocated to drives at character creation? (I made my players start all Drives at 1 and then allowed them to add 4 points wherever they wanted).
Thomas
EDIT: Another thing i noticed is the rate at which Debt rises. Assuming that you fight a 15 point Battle (which we did) a lot of powers will get activated. In our case 5 for each player. That's 5 debt in a single battle. You can only do that once (assuming that you start with a total of 9 in Drives). From this point it only takes losing one big Bet to make create a horribly bad situation for a Hero. I would suggest considering making Activating a Power to be a Level 1 Wonder that doesn't get you extra dice. This means that Powers only add to Wonder Level, but it also means that Debt will only rise as Players need extra Dice and Wonder.
On 7/19/2004 at 4:23am, TonyLB wrote:
RE: [Capes] Danger from the Shadows
LordSmerf wrote: 1. How do you determine how many dice to start a villain with? In the example Smogzilla starts with 10... why?
I don't know. My initial thought was that the Editor (like each player) would have a dice pool that carries from action to action and from scene to scene. But it's worth putting some brain-sweat into.
2. If you control a Complication does it still hinder you?My intent was that the answer to that was "No".
3. Is there any mechanics reason to resolve a complication that you started? From the example, was there really any need for Smogzilla to begin resolution of the Helicopter or the Building?
I have a suggestion regarding number 3. You get Wonder Points equal to the number of points you have in control of a Complication (regardless of how many your opponent has) when you resolve it. This will make high value Complications hotly contested, it also makes you deal with complications since there's no clear reason to do so at the moment since the dice you spend go towards victory no matter what effect they have.
There is no mechanics reason to resolve a complication. I had a vaguely formed notion that resolving the helicopter and the building would mean that lots of civilians died when they fell respectively, but it wasn't systematized in the rules.
I very much like your way of dealing with it. Indeed, I like it so much that I think I'll lift it wholesale and plop it into the rules, as it obviates a lot of other rules that I thought I was going to write. For instance, one no longer needs rules to handle betting on Complications, because the struggle over them folds directly into the ongoing struggle for Victory Points.
Setting Drive values. Can i have a Drive at 0? .... I made my players start all Drives at 1 and then allowed them to add 4 points wherever they wanted).
I think I wrote something like "Distribute nine points, and no drive may have less than one"... but what you wrote above is mathematically equivalent, and much clearer.
Another thing i noticed is the rate at which Debt rises. Assuming that you fight a 15 point Battle (which we did) a lot of powers will get activated. In our case 5 for each player. That's 5 debt in a single battle.
Really? Wow. That's a huge amount of powers activated.
First, to respond to your concern, I don't think rapid high debt is a problem for the system. I think it's a sign that people are quickly getting to the fun stuff. If they lose a big bet, and now they're dealing with constant penalties to their wonder levels, that's fun stuff too.
Second, I'm curious. Do you see activating lots of powers as a preferred strategy, or simply one among many equals? I'm not sure how much you view "lots of powers will get activated" as a truism, and how much it was just your experience.
On 7/19/2004 at 5:38am, LordSmerf wrote:
RE: [Capes] Danger from the Shadows
TonyLB wrote: First, to respond to your concern, I don't think rapid high debt is a problem for the system. I think it's a sign that people are quickly getting to the fun stuff. If they lose a big bet, and now they're dealing with constant penalties to their wonder levels, that's fun stuff too.
I think part of the problem is that the current rules don't really seem to actually make debt the "fun stuff." It should, and i realize that's your plan, but it didn't really come accross that way. The key is probably going to be the development of the non-combat stuff where this really comes into play.
TonyLB wrote: Second, I'm curious. Do you see activating lots of powers as a preferred strategy, or simply one among many equals? I'm not sure how much you view "lots of powers will get activated" as a truism, and how much it was just your experience.
From our session it's not so much a case of activating Powers over using Attitudes or Tropes as it is that you need all the dice you can get. Essentially in our 15 point fight we ended up tapping out all Attitudes, Tropes, and Powers before it was over. However we didn't accrue any debts to get more dice or Wonder Levels.
My guess is that in any given fight a Hero can be expected to utilize everything they have to get Dice. So i figure that if a charater has 3 Powers they will activate 3 Powers, if they have 4 they will activate 4, 5 will activate 5. There's even a decent chance that you'll deactivate or have a Power deactivated for you and activate it again...
Thomas