Fun Size is a proposed anthology of original horror roleplaying games and source material for existing indie roleplaying games. Fun Size is a project designed to be fun and to introduce readers to several different designers’ work.

It is my hope that at least 9 to 10 people will contribute to Fun Size. This project is open to anyone – experienced game designer or newbie looking for experience and publishing credits.

The Rules

1. Horror genre only.

2. Open to anyone.

3. Submissions are due September 3rd, 2004. All submissions should be sent to philip@philipjreed.com.

4. Final product size will be 7” x 10”, perfect-bound. Full-color cover.

5. Printing expenses will be shared by contributors. Estimated page count is 96-pages and, at a run of 1,000 copies, I’m estimating $17-$20/page. Thus, if your contribution is 10-pages you would pay $170-$200.

6. The 1,000 copies will be distributed to all contributors based on contribution size. If we have 10 contributors, and each has 9-pages in the final product, each would be shipped 100 copies of the 1,000 run.

7. Contributors are responsible for distributing their copies of the anthology product. Take them to cons in your area. Give them to friends. Sell them at local stores. Sell them on your website. Whatever you want to do with your copies.

8. Artist contributors (i.e., those who contribute art only) are accepted. Artist contributors will be factored in when copies are distributed. An artist with one full-page piece of art in the final product would pay $17-$20 and be shipped 10 copies. So if, in the above example, we had 10 game contributors with contributions of equal size and 6 artist contributors (each with 1 page) the game contributors would be shipped 94 copies (each) and the artists 10 copies (each).

9. Fun Size will be shipped to the printer on or about September 17, 2004.

10. Philip Reed will handle all layout and design of the final product. Contributors are encouraged to send logos and artwork for their contributions.

11. All contributors will retain ownership of their copyrights.

12. Starting November 1, 2004, Philip Reed will sell Fun Size as a PDF. 50% of all proceeds from the sale of Fun Size will be donated to The Forge.

And that’s Fun Size!

It’s my hope that many will enter and that we’ll get an amazing collection of games and articles. I would like to turn this into a yearly event but first we have to complete the first book.
If you have any questions or comments please post them at The Forge.

Thanks for reading!

Hey Phil. Working on the vs. Monsters Anthology was great, and I'd love to be involved in this project, but I have a few questions.

1. It sounds like you're asking contributors to give up the electronic rights to their submissions, and it's not clear to me what we get in return, aside from the 50% donation to the Forge. Does the other 50% pay for your time organizing the project, doing layout, and getting it printed, then? Do you get any print copies, or are you just sticking with electronic distribution?

If we're not giving up electronic rights, then the PDF product is really just the compilation of these articles, since they could potentially be made available elsewhere. Am I reading that right?

2. Just so I get the math right: people who write longer articles have to pay more of the printing costs (since it's divided by page number), but then get more copies of the final product.

3. There're no general guidelines for what to sell the book for, so one person could sell them at cost ($2, say) and another for $5 or $10. This seems potentially confusing (especially to people buying the book), but I guess it might work.

4. Is the book going to be published by Ronin Arts, effectively? I'm just wondering from a marketing standpoint (since you've built a nice reputation for yourself). Will it say that on the cover?

All in all, it sounds like a neat thing to try. I'm going to be out of the country all next year, though, so I might have to find people to distribute the books for me. Maybe a few contributors could band together to sell through RPGmall and/or Key20's new distribution system.

Jonathan Walton wrote: 1. It sounds like you're asking contributors to give up the electronic rights to their submissions, and it's not clear to me what we get in return, aside from the 50% donation to the Forge. Does the other 50% pay for your time organizing the project, doing layout, and getting it printed, then? Do you get any print copies, or are you just sticking with electronic distribution?

Jonathan Walton wrote: If we're not giving up electronic rights, then the PDF product is really just the compilation of these articles, since they could potentially be made available elsewhere. Am I reading that right?

Jonathan Walton wrote: 2. Just so I get the math right: people who write longer articles have to pay more of the printing costs (since it's divided by page number), but then get more copies of the final product.

Jonathan Walton wrote: 3. There're no general guidelines for what to sell the book for, so one person could sell them at cost ($2, say) and another for $5 or $10. This seems potentially confusing (especially to people buying the book), but I guess it might work.

Jonathan Walton wrote: 4. Is the book going to be published by Ronin Arts, effectively? I'm just wondering from a marketing standpoint (since you've built a nice reputation for yourself). Will it say that on the cover?

philreed wrote: Maybe "Collected by Ronin Arts" or something. Any ideas?

Jonathan Walton wrote:

philreed wrote: Maybe "Collected by Ronin Arts" or something. Any ideas?

That (or something like it) sounds fine to me.

One more question: if contributors also submit their own artwork, I assume that it'll just get tacked on when determining cost and copies, right? Each page of art (or 2 half page pieces, 4 quarter pagers, etc.) would count as a page of material, then?

Being that the compilation would include very different kinds of material, what style would the cover be? Are we talking about the cutefunnyawww halloween style dominant in American entertainment? I like the idea, but the game I'm thinking for this would fall apart faster than an Afgan government in a humorous context. The same question applies of course to the back cover as well. I'm essentially asking if you're planning horror or "horror". An added point is that I doubt how well a book with cutesy vampires and witches in the cover would sell in Finland...

Another question is the exact type of material. If I'm participating, my game will be an eight-hour larp/tabletop hybrid for fifteen players based on a Lovecraft story. Do you have problems with
- larp connection
- scenario-based design instead of an open-ended game
- a design context more suitable for convention play, with heavy GM preparation and a minimum of ten players
- a heavy intertextual relationship with Lovecraft?

Eero Tuovinen wrote: Being that the compilation would include very different kinds of material, what style would the cover be? Are we talking about the cutefunnyawww halloween style dominant in American entertainment? I like the idea, but the game I'm thinking for this would fall apart faster than an Afgan government in a humorous context. The same question applies of course to the back cover as well. I'm essentially asking if you're planning horror or "horror". An added point is that I doubt how well a book with cutesy vampires and witches in the cover would sell in Finland...

Eero Tuovinen wrote: Another question is the exact type of material. If I'm participating, my game will be an eight-hour larp/tabletop hybrid for fifteen players based on a Lovecraft story. Do you have problems with
- larp connection
- scenario-based design instead of an open-ended game
- a design context more suitable for convention play, with heavy GM preparation and a minimum of ten players
- a heavy intertextual relationship with Lovecraft?

Something I've been thinking is dumping the PDF release completely. I'd then just count myself (and my number of pages) in when it comes time to pay and split up the books.

I'm in.

Just had to run my plan by Jason Blair first. I'm going to take 10-20 pages to further develop the "Vespertine/Vesperteen" concept that is a semi-authorized sequel to his Little Fears. I knocked some of the basic design out last year when I did a 24-hour Game version of the idea, and now it's time to flesh it out.

The game's about teenagers, sin, and how everyone you know is turning into a monster. Great metaphor for growing up, I hope. Phil is the perfect person to do layout work for this game, anyway, so BONUS!

Eero, I don't think you need to worry too much about cute little ghosts and witches. Not that I mind them, especially, but I sincerely doubt that many of them will be in the book. Chris Shy certainly isn't going to put them on the cover.

Phil, can you share a bit about what's making you lean away from PDF? In my mind, anthologies seem ideal for the PDF market, because you can buy a dozen games, read over them, and then only print the ones you actually decide to play.

Primarily the paperwork. I've got enough to keep straight without adding another product that I send a % of sales off to somewhere else.

Also, it may make the anthology more valuable to people if it's only available in print.

Opinions?

I think that you should consider making the PDF. How about arranging it so that the participants themselves sell the PDF (with 50% going to Forge) if they want to? That way you yourself wouldn't necessarily have to, and the book would be available more widely. We (meaning the Forge) have all kinds of customers in strange places, and with this kind of sporadic distribution there's no guarantee that anyone can get the book.

Anyway, I'm in the book if you'll have me. The game is "The Temple", an 8-hour convention scenario based on the Lovecraft story. It was first played in Ropecon 2003, and the response was overwhelmingly positive. The mechanics are a keen edge of complete GM control over mundane coupled with player control over psychology - very rules light, but IMO completely nonarbitrary. I don't know how long the writeup will be, but I'll be including art from my court painter, the low grouse. I estimate about 12-14 pages plus a cover page.

That said, are we doing separate cover pages for the games? How about page size? I have to always ask the latter, I've no idea at all about how the american page sizes work.

Eero, standard American page size is 8.5x11", but I imagine Phil's just going to want some kind of text or word processor file that he can layout himself.

On the PDF issue, I think it's going to be more difficult to sell 1000 print copies through our websites if we're selling PDFs too, since most of the website crowd is pretty comfortable with PDF products (which would be cheaper too). Maybe we could release the game as a very cheap PDF ($2) starting in January, with all the profits going to the Forge (I don't know if that paperwork would be easier), or even release it for free once the print copies are mostly (say 90%) gone.

I like the idea of releasing it for free at a later date.

Size is 7" x 10". And while I would rather handle all of the layout I'll certainly entertain other options.

I'm tempted to submit Pretender but that's already going to be in the No Press RPG Anthology. Is submitting something that's already in another anthology going to be a problem?

(Also, I'd want to check with Luke regarding before doing such a thing, but...)

Hmm I would love to participate.

I have one question though:

YOu say Horror Genre Only, but could I say set it in Space, but be a focused Horror in space kind of thing?

I am not saying it will be in Space I was just curious.


Thanks


Sean

Hey Phil,

Printing expenses will be shared by contributors. Estimated page count is 96-pages and, at a run of 1,000 copies, I'm estimating $17-$20/page. Thus, if your contribution is 10-pages you would pay $170-$200.
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The 1,000 copies will be distributed to all contributors based on contribution size. If we have 10 contributors, and each has 9-pages in the final product, each would be shipped 100 copies of the 1,000 run.
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I had planned to list a retail price on the cover....I was thinking $15 but figured the final price would be determined after we see just how big the product is.

So, a designer with a 9 page game would pay between $153 and $180, and receive 100 copies. Are you planning a traditional print run, or will you use a POD printer? I've never been strong in the ways of finance so I guess I'm struggling to understand where all the money is going. I could POD a hundred copies of a 50 page game for the same amount of money. Shouldn't a traditional print run of a thousand copies be more cost effective?

That, and being one of ten games in a $15 anthology would seem to devalue my game in the market. If I wanted to sell it as a pdf I'd have already set a very low price precedent.

Paul

Paul Czege wrote: That, and being one of ten games in a $15 anthology would seem to devalue my game in the market. If I wanted to sell it as a pdf I'd have already set a very low price precedent.

I need to finish a few projects today but will come back and answer questions.

Thanks for the patience, guys.

Phil

More Questions!!! Obviously when you have the time...

1. What about Artwork? I have an artist I am working with who is willing to do two pieces of art for my game (I am paying him), is this allowed?

2. Is it ok if we show drafts of our game for Discussion here on the Forge? In Indie Design for instance.

3. Is there a page limit? Can we use our own fonts and sizes etc or will you be handling that?

sorry if these are repetetive etc.... just info I am looking for


Sean

Hi,

My turn to ask a question or two. Does it have to be a complete game or can it be a supporting supplement? I published my own game (horror/conspiracy type), but I think it would be kind of cool to publish a supplement in the anthology.

Will the formating be uniform throughout the book?

For the marketing angle, have you considered something like Ronin Arts Presents. It has worked for Dark Horse. Speaking of them you couls also try The Ronin Arts Book of Horror (similar to DH's Hauntings and Witches books).

Keith

Okay, just about caught up on the big rush jobs. I'll come back later today with a revised proposal that attempts to address all of the questions raised so far.

Hello all

Whil ePhil look sover the various questions I was just curious how many definites are going to be participating.

I can count myself as a definite... just curious as to how many others.


Sean

Hi,

Well you can count me as a definate if it is cool for me to submit a horror related supplement to my game. If not then I would have to be counted out since my current focus is Conspiracy of Shadows.

Keith

I'm definitely in, since I've already got Gary Simpson (aka Hive) doing illustration work for Vespertine. So, in a worse case scenario, if Phil gets up to his eyeballs in other stuff, I think we should go ahead anyway (though maybe in a POD format), since the Halloween Anthology is a great idea.

At this point I'm definitely in, because I have a horror game besides Pretender to submit -- the LARP system WRATH...

Okay, with vs. Monsters shipping, the Forge stuff out of the way, and the freelance work gone I'm ready to dive back in.

Later today I'll post a revised proposal for this project.

So, what's the status of this project? I'd like to know before sealing the art commission and translating my game. Ideally I'd like to know it at least a week before the deadline, to get it done in time.

The deadline's going to be September 15. I'm just waiting for one last bit of info on this. I should have it in the next few days.

These will be printed here:

http://www.quintinpublications.com/printing.html

Not to be a bore, but I'd like some definites on this project. The questions asked in the thread are a good start. Can't be too busy to answer, can you?

Or has there been developments elsewhere I'm not aware of?

Eero Tuovinen wrote: Not to be a bore, but I'd like some definites on this project. The questions asked in the thread are a good start. Can't be too busy to answer, can you?

Or has there been developments elsewhere I'm not aware of?

OK, my game's ready to go, if this is happening. I'd have to find someone to buy a part of the printing off my hands, though: the game's about twenty pages long, so my share of the printing would be hundreds of copies. I can confidently take fifty, considering the size of the Finnish market. So if somebody wants to buy some copies at the printing price, let us know...

If that can't be arranged, I cannot participate with good conscience. I don't much fancy sitting on three hundred copies of the book.

That being said, it's not a great loss either way. I got my game translated and illustrated, so I can easily go into PDF business with it at some junction ;)

I talked a bit to Jason Blair about the possibility of getting Key20 Direct to help me distribute my copies, and it might be possible that he'd be interested in doing that for some other people's stuff, assuming that sales demanded it.

We can talk about that more when the time comes.

I definitely want to participate but I know Neuter will not be ready for the deadline, my Editor is behind schedule and then there is the re-write and playtest. I think it will likely end up in the 15 page range...


So perhaps we could push back the deadline? If not then I will definitely take phil up on his secondary offer at some point...



Sean

The only problem with pushing back the deadline is Halloween. I think we'd all like to get copies of the book a few weeks before the special day.

Push back by how much?

Yes I did not even think about that... uhm I would say back by one more week... I could push the Editor a lil harder and see what we come up with, I know already a few changes I want to make and then playtest etc...

So a week tops, however, if everyone else is ready on time and it can go ahead without me, I don't want to hold everyone up... but if I had one more week I know I could get it done, and obviously I cannot speak for everyone else :)


Sean

Bleh

Well unexpectedly I just had to drop alot of money on some personal things and I will not be able to participate in Fun Time. I appreciate the chance and am sorry this is not going to work out, but it's just not doable right now. Likely Neuter will come out in October as a PDF or some such.

Thanks All


Sean

Well, fuck.

It's the 19th now, two days past Phil's due date, the Vespertine playtest still hasn't happened, and I've still got a bit of writing left to do.

Is the project just a bust? With Sean dropping out and me not having my act together, I doubt Phil's got the material to make it work. Do we try to just pull together a horror (non-halloween) anthology a bit later, or just give up on the idea?

Jonathan Walton wrote: Well, fuck.

It's the 19th now, two days past Phil's due date, the Vespertine playtest still hasn't happened, and I've still got a bit of writing left to do.

Is the project just a bust? With Sean dropping out and me not having my act together, I doubt Phil's got the material to make it work. Do we try to just pull together a horror (non-halloween) anthology a bit later, or just give up on the idea?

You know, that sounds like hella-good advice. Make a good product first and then worry about distributing it to people. More game companies should think like that.

philreed wrote:

Jonathan Walton wrote: Well, fuck.

It's the 19th now, two days past Phil's due date, the Vespertine playtest still hasn't happened, and I've still got a bit of writing left to do.

Is the project just a bust? With Sean dropping out and me not having my act together, I doubt Phil's got the material to make it work. Do we try to just pull together a horror (non-halloween) anthology a bit later, or just give up on the idea?

Here's my idea. Try to pull it together as a PDF and release it on Halloween. Take the extra time to make it right (hell, I'm _almost_ done with my submission). Then take the time to read it over and discuss printing it.

I'd rather have it in print ASAP but I think we'll all be happier if we take the extra time to allow people to get it right.