Topic: Ropecon AAR
Started by: Eero Tuovinen
Started on: 7/25/2004
Board: Conventions
On 7/25/2004 at 4:16pm, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
Ropecon AAR
Well, Ropecon came and went. I did some time behind the table, gave two lectures (one theory, one about Kätyrin osa) and ambled around. All in all an interesting experience. We adjusted our marketing strategy to lose practically all demoing of games after it became apparent that we wouldn't have enough people to both man the table and demo the games. I hope we didn't inconvenience any who worked to get us demo materials. We'll use them later on, promise.
Kätyrin osa (the translation of MLwM) was received well. We sold 43 copies during the convention, which is roughly what I expected going in. Many more people were interested, so I'd expect that we'll sell 50-60 before the year is out. Meaning that we just might break even, what with all the hassles with our printers.
Other games sold reasonably well, too. I'll give some random numbers off the top of my head. Books not mentioned sold from zero to three copies, roughly.
Burning Wheel: 6 (sold out within hours. Book Finland up for a reprint, our hobbyists want more heavy fantasy rules for pursuing the Dream)
Dust Devils: 5 (sold out next, being extremely likable for anyone with a whit of taste. Book us up for a reprint, Finland wants more.)
Elfs: 3 (which is two more than I expected in Finland, frankly)
kpfs: 10 (biggest surprise to me; they started selling after I figured out the need to force people to read the first sentence AND tell them that it's funnier than Paranoia. Forget one and it's either disgust or disinterest)
Sorcerer: 6 (about what I expected. This is a game I'm planning for the long run, building interest slowly.)
Universalis: 7 (likewise)
I don't have a clue as to where these stand compared to an American 3000-person convention. I'd expect the numbers to be a little higher, as many people come to Ropecon to buy games as well. Also, I might have some edge with my Finnish brethren as compared to American indie vendors and their people, what with things being less commercial overall here. Content counts for more, I imagine.
Overall people were glad and congratulatory for our stepping forth to get them games they've heard about. There's also a minority that takes Kätyrin osa as fighting for Finnish language, which it of course is. Then there's some that take any commercial activity as betraying the roleplaying revolution (don't laugh, Finland is a social-democratic country with a strongly anti-commercial culture). They were drowned by the positive opinions, though.
The single highest point of the convention was giving a lecture about Kätyrin osa. People there asked me why there were no demos of the game arranged. I explained about the manpower shortage and offered to give a demonstration for the interested after the lecture. I then ran a short Dracula remake for four people afterwards. It was extremely rewarding how each and every one got the game instantly, weaving an engrossing narrative about gypsy's love for his daughter, englishmen's pride and how a vampire can see innocence. I've planned before running a Dracula game, and this was all I could have hoped for. With complete strangers to boot. Finns are clearly ready for MLwM, I hope many people write us about their experiences with it.
I also "met" Eric Wujcik when he browsed our table. He picked up kpfs and asked how much it cost. No sale, probably because we'd had to price it at 15€ to cover shipping and buy-in. I'd have said something if I'd known how to pronounce his name (laugh all you want, and then try to pronounce my name correctly on your first try).
I'll supply additional details after the rest period if people are interested. Newsalor, others: how about telling your impressions about our exotic convention? And how'd you like the games you bought?
On 7/25/2004 at 4:44pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
As far as sales numbers, I'd say that we'd be very hard pressed to do that well here for a convention of the size of Ropecon. Might even be impossible to do that well here, though Luke would know better.
Mike
On 7/25/2004 at 6:12pm, Merten wrote:
Re: Ropecon AAR
Eero Tuovinen wrote: I'll supply additional details after the rest period if people are interested. Newsalor, others: how about telling your impressions about our exotic convention? And how'd you like the games you bought?
I wasn't able to attend any panels or speeches, as I had a social overdrive day and spent it with beer & talking about games (which might lead to something - it's easy to get excited in conventions and then forget about it in the following week. But we'll see).
I bought Burning Wheel (and reserved a copy beforehand, which turned out to be a wise decision) and pondered between Universalis and Sorcerer, finally deciding on Universalis. The rest of the stuff looked instresting as well, so I'll have to buy the rest of the stuff available later.
Burning Wheel certainly looks intresting; being an all-rules book, it's not an easy read. With first glances, it'll looks complete, if a bit heavy system. I'll have to digest it with time. Universalis I've only managed to skim through so far; kudos for the clear layout and graphics. It seems to be easy to digest - the idea looks intresting, though probably not my piece of cake.
As for the sales, I did expect the numbers to be a bit higher - while Ropecon isn't really a sales convention (as far removed from such as possible, come to think of it, excluding card games), I would have thought that the low pricetags and indie-approach would have sold a few more copies.
On 7/26/2004 at 7:38pm, abzu wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
from my very limited experience selling at cons, eero, I'd say those numbers are great!
it looks like you've got a lot of interest in small, exotic games. A con like that would be a very good one for me.
-L
On 7/26/2004 at 8:01pm, Merten wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
abzu wrote: it looks like you've got a lot of interest in small, exotic games. A con like that would be a very good one for me.
... Continuing that line of thought, I wouldn't mind having an indie game publisher and/or roleplaying theorist with attitude and opinions (preferably different ones than people representing major publishers have) being invited as a Guest of Honor in Ropecon 2005.
It might skyrocket the sales, but I'd be even more intrested in what kind of content such person could bring to our little convention. We have a long list of established designers with long (and usually well known) careers as GoH's - I'd be quite happy hear views, opinions and outright challenging of the status quo delivered in one or two speeches.
Just a thought.
On 7/26/2004 at 10:11pm, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Merten wrote:
... Continuing that line of thought, I wouldn't mind having an indie game publisher and/or roleplaying theorist with attitude and opinions (preferably different ones than people representing major publishers have) being invited as a Guest of Honor in Ropecon 2005.
This is something I've lobbied somewhat with the people deciding on the convention, but the main part of activists here are strongly immersionist and "nordic", with all the attitudes that entails. I therefore don't see this happening yet, but who knows - it's possible that we could invite someone in the year 2006... Talk with your con representatives to make it happen!
On 7/27/2004 at 10:47am, Merten wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Eero Tuovinen wrote:Merten wrote:
... Continuing that line of thought, I wouldn't mind having an indie game publisher and/or roleplaying theorist with attitude and opinions (preferably different ones than people representing major publishers have) being invited as a Guest of Honor in Ropecon 2005.
This is something I've lobbied somewhat with the people deciding on the convention, but the main part of activists here are strongly immersionist and "nordic", with all the attitudes that entails. I therefore don't see this happening yet, but who knows - it's possible that we could invite someone in the year 2006... Talk with your con representatives to make it happen!
I don't that's the main issue (though it might be, I wouldn't know); the main problem is that indie games and/or roleplaying theory is something that covers a rather small percentage of intrests of the participants. This seems to be chancing, though.
Have to think about it and do some queries as the organising committee for the next year's convention forms.
On 7/27/2004 at 12:48pm, Ville Takanen wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Hmm... I think most of the participants are more intrested in GW / MTG tournaments ;-)
The idea of lobbying an indie game designer as one of the GOHs is an novel one, alltough maybe not for 2005... There will probably be much fuss about the White Wolfs "WOD 2.0" material in next years 'con.
And not to mention, that I think all the larp GOHs have been indie game designers as well!
ps. Does that 6 pcs. of Sorcerer include supplements too?
On 7/27/2004 at 2:10pm, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Ville Takanen wrote:
And not to mention, that I think all the larp GOHs have been indie game designers as well!
Good point, indeed! The main difference of course is the frame of reference, as the Forge-type indie designer works through the American sociological theoretical frame, while the larp designer draws from the nordic tradition. So getting an American would be a change of pace theoretically, not ideologically.
What I'd expect from such a GOH would be one lecture on theory he bases his work on and another on the industry.
ps. Does that 6 pcs. of Sorcerer include supplements too?
Nope, we sold some of those, too. I expect that the rest will start moving after people get a chance to realize how good a book they have.
On 7/27/2004 at 9:59pm, Ville Takanen wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
IMHO:
As the lecture on theory, would be of intrest to the developers lurking at the 'con, I think that it should be more "this is my game (and I used these theories while designing it)", as we would like to promote the indie games too.
And the industry lecture should be more, "what is indie game designign and why/how it it happens".
On 7/28/2004 at 6:36am, Merten wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Ville Takanen wrote: As the lecture on theory, would be of intrest to the developers lurking at the 'con, I think that it should be more "this is my game (and I used these theories while designing it)", as we would like to promote the indie games too. And the industry lecture should be more, "what is indie game designign and why/how it it happens".
Not to forget publishing and market; Finland is clearly lacking in games translated to other languages (in other words, none come to my mind), so that should be intresting and hopefully thought-provoking.
What comes to larp GOH's, I'm not aware that they would have an indie publishing career.
On 7/28/2004 at 8:49am, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
It would be challenging to get an American to a convention in Finland, I fear. I don't know how many copies of a game would have to sell to finance such a trip, so it would have to be someone who either was coming to Europe for some other reason anyway, or could arrange to do a string of conventions successfully.
Also, it might mean skipping Origins or Gencon or both, which are mainstays of many game publishers' income (although less so for indies, I think).
But I'm sure you could find several who would love to do it.
--M. J. Young
On 7/28/2004 at 9:04am, Merten wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
M. J. Young wrote: It would be challenging to get an American to a convention in Finland, I fear. I don't know how many copies of a game would have to sell to finance such a trip, so it would have to be someone who either was coming to Europe for some other reason anyway, or could arrange to do a string of conventions successfully.
Well, considering that the Convention pays for the trips, accomondation and food (*), the financial stress shouldn't be too hard. And isn't Origins well before and GenCon well after the last week of July?
*) Unless things have drastically changed in the last few years. But how many American designers would come to Northern Europe on their own?
On 7/28/2004 at 11:47am, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Merten is right: the con policy has for many years been to handle the GOHs with greatest honors, and thus we haven't usually had any trouble getting prestigious guests. One of the best points of Ropecon, IMO. We've had Justin Achilli, Eric Wujik, Jonathan Tweet and other's of similar calibre, and usually they've been happy to come and have talked about the convention afterwards with highest praise.
On 7/28/2004 at 6:48pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Wow, a con the size of Ropecon in the US would almost certainly not be able to comp transatlantic flights.
Wow.
How are these things funded?
Mike
On 7/28/2004 at 6:55pm, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Mike Holmes wrote:
How are these things funded?
AFAIK the three main methods of funding are the tickets, voluntary work and different kinds of subsidies. That is, most participants pay 20€ for entrance, nobody is paid for any work they do, and both local and national institutions tend to support these kinds of endeavour.
On 7/28/2004 at 7:17pm, Merten wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Eero Tuovinen wrote: AFAIK the three main methods of funding are the tickets, voluntary work and different kinds of subsidies. That is, most participants pay 20€ for entrance, nobody is paid for any work they do, and both local and national institutions tend to support these kinds of endeavour.
Not to mention that the convention finances are in capable hands. I'm not aware of any funds that Ropecon would have received, though. Might be that I've just missed such thing, though.
On 7/28/2004 at 10:06pm, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
That kind of financial support for a guest of honor would certainly make a difference. I'm not saying that you could have your pick of indie designers with that offer, but you'd probably have a pretty good selection.
--M. J. Young
On 8/4/2004 at 3:51am, Erick Wujcik wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Merten wrote: ... Continuing that line of thought, I wouldn't mind having an indie game publisher and/or roleplaying theorist with attitude and opinions (preferably different ones than people representing major publishers have) being invited as a Guest of Honor in Ropecon 2005...
Um...
Erick Wujcik here, Gaming Guest of Honor at the recent Ropecon 2004.
Since I'm "an indie game publisher and/or roleplaying theorist with attitude and opinions... different.. than people representing major publishers..." It seems you got your wish.
By the by, I had a terrific time, ran eight diceless/experimental role-playing events, and met a whole bunch of people who had some very progressive ideas about role-playing.
I'd recommend Ropecon to one and all!
Erick
On 8/4/2004 at 3:55am, Erick Wujcik wrote:
RE: Re: Ropecon AAR
Eero Tuovinen wrote: I also "met" Erick Wujcik when he browsed our table. He picked up kpfs and asked how much it cost. No sale, probably because we'd had to price it at 15€ to cover shipping and buy-in. I'd have said something if I'd known how to pronounce his name (laugh all you want, and then try to pronounce my name correctly on your first try).
By the time I got to your table I'd already bought two copies of "Beyond Role and Play," all my pocket money at the time...
Erick
On 8/4/2004 at 5:29am, Merten wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Erick Wujcik wrote: Since I'm "an indie game publisher and/or roleplaying theorist with attitude and opinions... different.. than people representing major publishers..." It seems you got your wish.
In a sense, yes - though while I enjoyed your Guest of Honor speech, I have to say that it was more of intrest to the small computer journalist inside me than the small roleplayer inside me. Personally, I would have been eager to hear more about, say, design principles behind Amber, why it hasn't become a mainstream (and how it differs from mainstream games) and issues connected to that. But then again, I might have been a minority with that wish.
I wouldn't exactly call Amber an Indie game, though. ;)
Still, that mentioned computer journalist was quite happy, indeed.
On 8/6/2004 at 11:12pm, Erick Wujcik wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Merten wrote: In a sense, yes - though while I enjoyed your Guest of Honor speech, I have to say that it was more of intrest to the small computer journalist inside me than the small roleplayer inside me. Personally, I would have been eager to hear more about, say, design principles behind Amber, why it hasn't become a mainstream (and how it differs from mainstream games) and issues connected to that. But then again, I might have been a minority with that wish.
I sent the convention a very full list of my seminars (doing only one at a convention is odd for me), but they only wanted me to put on the one.
Here's a more complete list:
http://www.47rpg.com/resume/Seminars.html
Merten wrote: I wouldn't exactly call Amber an Indie game, though. ;)
Why not?
1. I started Phage Press exclusively to publish my old role-playing game design... a design that I couldn't get published by 'mainstream' publishers.
2. It was, from the very first, my own company, so it was definitely 'designer owned and operated.'
Does Amber Diceless fail the 'Indie' test simply because it was successful?
Erick
On 8/6/2004 at 11:51pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Hiya,
By Forge criteria, Amber has been an independent game throughout most of its history.
Best,
Ron
On 8/7/2004 at 8:03am, Merten wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Erick Wujcik wrote: I sent the convention a very full list of my seminars (doing only one at a convention is odd for me), but they only wanted me to put on the one.
Which suprises me; for some reason, almost all of the GOH-speeches given by roleplaying game designers are titled "the future of roleplaying games". I wouldn't mind that, if we had a change of getting another lecture on, say, game design.
The problem with one speech per GOH is that the speeches are all quite similar and follow the same lines. Even more so, as a good number of long-time game designers have moved to the computer games sector and tend to have a habit of including lot's of views concerning the future of roleplaying and computers.
Which is fine, and usually quite intresting (though, as I said, more so for me as a computer game columnist than as a roleplayer) - but I wouldn't mind getting something else as well. There seem to be plenty of good picks in your seminar list, especially on game design. I think I'll have to point this out to the organising committee.
Erick Wujcik wrote:Merten wrote: I wouldn't exactly call Amber an Indie game, though. ;)
Why not?
Originally, I was thinking along the lines that it's based on quite well known series of books, which sort of lifts it from the indie-category with sheer amount of publicity aquired. Then again, I realize this is somewhat limited viewpoint, and I'll have to re-examine it. (And/or buy the game).
Wouldn't those criterias make Vampire: The Masquerade an indie game as well?
On 8/7/2004 at 7:19pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Ropecon AAR
Hello,
Merten, the discussion of "independence" is off-topic for this thread. See the Discussion of the term "independent" and search for similar threads in Site Discussion. The definition at the Forge is extremely simple and clear, and many people try to make it more complex in order to object to it. Contact me if you have any questions.
Best,
Ron
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