Topic: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Started by: Peter Nordstrand
Started on: 7/31/2004
Board: Adept Press
On 7/31/2004 at 7:41pm, Peter Nordstrand wrote:
[Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Hi,
I am about to run my first session of Sorcerer ever, and am wondering if I am getting the combat rules correctly. So, here is three combat rounds as I would handle them. Participants are Albin the sorcerer, his very powerful demon, and an unnamed adversary. For simplicity's sake, this example ignores role-playing bonuses etc.
ROUND 1
DECLARATIONS
Albin orders his demon to Boost his Stamina.
Demon decides to use Shadow to make things harder to hit for Adversary.
Adversary shoots Albin.
ROLLING THE DICE
Albin rolls Will to order his demon: 10, 5, 4, 2, 1.
Demon rolls its Power to affect the illumination: 10, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 3, 2, 2.
Adversary rolls his Stamina to shoot Albin: 10, 7, 4, 1.
RESULTS
Adversary shoots Albin, who decides to suck it up (rolls a defensive die of 2, ouch!). Albin is now at -6 for next action, with -3 lasting. This is more than twice his Stamina 2, so he is out, right?
Demon affects illumination. Adversary, who has already acted, rolls his full Stamina for defense, successfully dodging the effect with 10, 9, 7, 5.
Albin cannot command his demon.
ROUND 2
DECLARATIONS
Albin looses his roll due to damage.
Demon decides to punch Adversary in the face.
Adversary shoots Albin again.
ROLLING THE DICE
Demon rolls its Stamina to attack Adversary: 9, 8, 6, 3, 3, 3, 1.
Adversary rolls his Stamina to shoot Albin: 9, 5, 3, 1.
RESULTS
Demon punches Adversary, and Adversary aborts his action, rolling 9, 9, 8, 4 for defense taking no damage.
ROUND 3
DECLARATIONS
Albin, who is now only at -3 attempts rolls Will vs. the 2 dice he wants to use this round. He is successful. Again, he wants to order his demon to Boost his Stamina.
Demon decides to punch Adversary again.
Adversary wants to shoot Albin again.
ROLLING THE DICE
Albin rolls 9, 6.
Demon rolls 9, 9, 6, 6, 3, 3, 2.
Adversary rolls 7, 6, 4, 1.
RESULTS
Demon goes first. Adversary aborts again (rolls 9, 5, 3, 1) and gets - 4 next action, including -1 lasting.
Albin shouts to the demon to Boost his Stamina. The demon decides not to resist, so the action is a success. (However, if the demon wanted to resist, it would get a +3 bonus to its Will roll, as a result of Albin's lasting damage from the first round, right?.).
Am I doing anything wrong here? Would you do things differently? Why?
All the best,
On 7/31/2004 at 8:58pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Hi Peter,
Here goes! You're in italics, I'm in bold.
Round 1 is just fine as written.
ROUND 2
DECLARATIONS
Albin looses his roll due to damage. Error here: right now, he can roll Will to overcome a stated number of dice, and if successful, may use these dice to act this time after all. Revise all subsequent actions accordingly; you're forcing Albin to lose an action he doesn't need to lose.
Demon decides to punch Adversary in the face.
Adversary shoots Albin again.
ROLLING THE DICE
Demon rolls its Stamina to attack Adversary: 9, 8, 6, 3, 3, 3, 1.
Adversary rolls his Stamina to shoot Albin: 9, 5, 3, 1.
RESULTS
Demon punches Adversary, and Adversary aborts his action, rolling 9, 9, 8, 4 for defense taking no damage.
ROUND 3
DECLARATIONS
Albin, who is now only at -3 attempts rolls Will vs. the 2 dice he wants to use this round. He is successful. Again, he wants to order his demon to Boost his Stamina. He coulda done this earlier, as stated, so now Albin would be at -3 for whatever action he wants to try. Revise all actions from this point accordingly.
Demon decides to punch Adversary again.
Adversary wants to shoot Albin again.
ROLLING THE DICE
Albin rolls 9, 6.
Demon rolls 9, 9, 6, 6, 3, 3, 2.
Adversary rolls 7, 6, 4, 1.
RESULTS
Demon goes first. Adversary aborts again (rolls 9, 5, 3, 1) and gets - 4 next action, including -1 lasting.
Albin shouts to the demon to Boost his Stamina. The demon decides not to resist, so the action is a success. (However, if the demon wanted to resist, it would get a +3 bonus to its Will roll, as a result of Albin's lasting damage from the first round, right?.). Actually, all this would be part of Round 4 - it's a new action and can't be included in this round.
Hope that helps!
Best,
Ron
On 8/1/2004 at 2:29am, Yokiboy wrote:
Re: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Great thread Peter (glad to see more Swedes getting into Sorcerer), and Ron's clarifications will definitely help me with my own first run. I do have a question regarding Round 1 though, see the parts in bold below:
Peter Nordstrand wrote: ROUND 1
DECLARATIONS
Albin orders his demon to Boost his Stamina.
Demon decides to use Shadow to make things harder to hit for Adversary.
Adversary shoots Albin.
ROLLING THE DICE
Albin rolls Will to order his demon: 10, 5, 4, 2, 1.
Demon rolls its Power to affect the illumination: 10, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 3, 2, 2.
Adversary rolls his Stamina to shoot Albin: 10, 7, 4, 1.
Why does Albin have to make a Will roll to order his demon, is this used purely for initiative, as otherwise I thought you only had to roll Will vs Will in case your demon was dissatisfied (Stage 1 or higher on the Dissatisfaction Meter)?
The GM plays the demon, correct? If so when will a demon decide to use its abilities without word from its master? Like in Peter's Round 1 example, why did the demon decide to punch the adversary? Is this just based on his feelings towards his master at the time, as in do I enjoy being bound to this schmuck or not? A bratty demon could stand around and do nothing unless ordered into action, right? (I keep working out answers to my own questions by typing as I puzzle the issue at hand.)
I might have a few more questions about this example after consulting the rulebook regarding Shadowing and rolling Will to overcome damage. I will get back to that later.
I do have a question regarding the whole Fortune-in-the-Middle concept though. I saw it explained like this somewhere:
Sorcerer puts the system-monkey's money where his mouth is. You want Fortune methods and system to be involved? Here you go. You've got plenty of free time, with no commitments, to settle what it is you want to do. After that, the system speaks. When it speaks, you listen. THEN, for the reactive rolls and so on, you get to twiddle again. (That's why it's Fortune-in-the-middle.) But while the system speaks, no fiddling.
How is this actually played out though? My hang-up is the fact that you can revise your actions during the Declarations Phase until everyone's happy, having had a chance to react to their foes' and friends' announcements and eventual revisions. Do you actually roleplay these announcements in order to get bonuses, when you might end up scrapping that action moments later as your foe announces something unexpected?
Seems like the possibility of a lot of wasted effort and energy. Why not declare basic intentions during the Declarations Phase and then, when a given player's turn come up, let them describe their actions in detail for bonuses? What am I missing?
TTFN,
Yokiboy
On 8/1/2004 at 3:33am, Trevis Martin wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
it looks like in the case you are using the Will roll for determining initiative order only, assuming the demon doesn't resist at all. On the other hand the GM may want to roll for the demon just to see how he reacts to the command.
Do you actually roleplay these announcements in order to get bonuses, when you might end up scrapping that action moments later as your foe announces something unexpected?
Well, if by roleplay you mean describing a really atmospheric and cool action along with maybe a one liner in there...then yeah. The reason you describe the cool stuff for bonuses at this point is because it effectivly means that The cooler you make your action (i.e. the better you roleplay it, more atmosphere, tactics, good lines....etc.) The higher liklihood that you'll get to do it because of the added dice on the initiative.
The demon will fight for his master without being asked at the GM's discretion. If the Sorcerer is on pretty good terms with the master then you can probably assume it'll go in swinging. Yep, it looks like you got it. :)
Trevis
On 8/1/2004 at 4:18am, Valamir wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
I believe the Will role is purely for initiative but its also important to reiterate that the demon can do only one action on a turn.
In round one the Demons action is to use Shadow. Albin's action is to order boost.
Even if Albin goes first, he isn't getting boosted this round. His order will hit the Demon before the demon goes, but the Demon will have only 2 options.
1) abort to resist the order (possible if the Demon were being particularly bratty).
2) or don't abort and resist with a single "defense".
If the demon chooses not to abort, and it wins its defense its going ahead with the Shadow anyway, orders be damned. If it loses the defense then it will follow the order NEXT turn. Whether it proceeds to go with Shadow or not this turn would depend on the nature of the Demon its relationship to its master and the exact wording of the order.
The demon can't suddenly edit its "Shadow" into "Boost" in the middle of a round once dice have hit the table.
Least ways that's how I understand it working.
On 8/1/2004 at 4:38am, sirogit wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
In my personal expiereince, the possibility of canceling announcements is a feature, not a bug.
It adds an incentive to go through with the action. It makes people value bonus dice more, that they not only accomplish something mechanicly, but they get to pull off that spiffy move.
On 8/1/2004 at 11:00am, Christopher Weeks wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Would you call it double-dipping for Albin to attack Adversary on that first round (as his rolled item) and to also call for a boosted Stamina from the demon? (It'll be totally up to the demon what it does with the knowledge of Albin's desire, though.)
Also, there's a lot of information being tossed around in the free and clear stage. If Albin's player says something like "Hopefully the demon will provide a stamina boost so I can survive this gunshot and maybe whip some ass...I'm trying to kick Adversary in the head." Is it kosher to assume that Albin has made some trivial indication to the demon of what he wants? Because he can always revise his action based on what the demon declares.
I've played it these ways, and thought it was proper.
Chris
On 8/1/2004 at 1:39pm, bcook1971 wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
"Peter Nordstrand wrote: Adversary shoots Albin, who decides to suck it up (rolls a defensive die of 2, ouch!). Albin is now at -6 for next action, with -3 lasting. This is more than twice his Stamina 2, so he is out, right?
Ron Edwards wrote: Error here: right now, he can roll Will to overcome a stated number of dice, and if successful, may use these dice to act this time after all.
I don't have access to my book right now, but this doesn't follow my understanding. What is the upper limit of total penalties during combat at which a sorcerer may master for score dice?
** ** **
I guess there's room for variety in processing the round. I can see myself taking cues from announcement that inform demon choices; and players switching to something like a Punish or a gun, once their demons are properly representing.
In fact, the tone of Peter's example suggests that he's playing up the potential for contrary demon behavior. I guess I'm just continuing in the vein of Christopher's comment.
There are many good things about the way Sorcerer handles announcement. But it does allow table talk to refine co-ordination which can obviate command actions for all but rebellious demons, unless the GM is just being cute.
On 8/1/2004 at 4:05pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Hello,
Yokiboy, Albin has to order his demon to Boost his Stamina specifically because the demon has announced a different action. It's also the case that if the GM had stated the demon's action as "waiting for the order," that Albin would still have to take this action. Think of this action not as "forcing the demon to do what it doesn't want to do," but rather as "making it clear to your demon what it is you want it to do."
My hang-up is the fact that you can revise your actions during the Declarations Phase until everyone's happy, having had a chance to react to their foes' and friends' announcements and eventual revisions. Do you actually roleplay these announcements in order to get bonuses, when you might end up scrapping that action moments later as your foe announces something unexpected?
Seems like the possibility of a lot of wasted effort and energy. Why not declare basic intentions during the Declarations Phase and then, when a given player's turn come up, let them describe their actions in detail for bonuses? What am I missing?
Yay, classic question! See FitM and bonus dice, and let me know if you need more.
Trevis, the demon does roll one die in defense if it does not abort its action to resist the command more actively. Hence the Will roll is far more than an "initiative setter," although of course it plays its usual roll in the turn order, like any other roll. Ralph's (Valamir's) breakdown is good.
Christopher, that is definitely double-dipping. See my comments in [Sorcerer] Dialogue and combat and [Sorcerer] More on complex conflict.
Bill, the limit is "total penalties exceed one's Stamina." It doesn't matter to me whether the stated example exactly conforms to this (it does), as Peter was confused about the essential issue that the sorcerer character does not lose his action at all if he or she can make that Will roll. That's the important thing to correct.
Wait, though - Bill, I just figured out your point after all, I think, and yeah, it deserves review. Now that I look at your example, Peter, I think you might be confusing "total penalties exceed one's Stamina" (a momentary condition) with "lasting penalties more than twice Stamina," which is usually only referenced at the end of the fight. Let me know if we need to break that down to clarify.
Bill, you wrote,
There are many good things about the way Sorcerer handles announcement. But it does allow table talk to refine co-ordination which can obviate command actions for all but rebellious demons, unless the GM is just being cute.
I don't think this is especially accurate, as the above example shows - even if the demon is perfectly willing to Boost Stamina instead of using its Shadow, it still has to get the Will vs. Will roll in time in order to receive and process the command. The free-and-clear discussion does not change this requirement.
Best,
Ron
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On 8/1/2004 at 7:00pm, bcook1971 wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Ron Edwards wrote: I don't think this is especially accurate, as the above example shows - even if the demon is perfectly willing to Boost Stamina instead of using its Shadow, it still has to get the Will vs. Will roll in time in order to receive and process the command. The free-and-clear discussion does not change this requirement.
Truly. My point is that during announcement, a players wishes for their demons may be revealled. The GM may then announce their actions accordingly. So no need to command. If announcement weren't free-and-clear and the GM had already announced actions for his demons, their could be more need to announce command actions.
It's a subtle downside that I feel is outweighed by the benefits that this approach to handling announcements provides.
On 8/1/2004 at 7:24pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
A GM who does that isn't really doing his job, Bill.
The GM's job is to play the Demons like real characters not use the free and clear stage to cater to player whim.
Perhaps if the player has an established history of fulfilling need and had just fully satiated the demon's desire so the demon was feeling fat and happy and eager to please nice master, the GM might retro change the demon's action to be in line with the player's wishes during free and clear. But that would be no more or less than figuring that the demon would have had a pretty good inkling of what the master wants and was happy to do it.
But most times, you'd think of what the demon wants to do based on its own motivations same as you would for any NPC.
No?
On 8/2/2004 at 2:24am, bcook1971 wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Yes. I'm getting the impression that play is served by defining demon wants/needs that conflict with player interests so as to highight the master-to-slave relationship. If this point is not given proper emphasis during demon creation, I think most players will default to defining for advantage, thinking that they need to maximize combat effectiveness (i.e. easily satisfied needs = cost free obedience = combat efficient) when they should be defining for greatest grist for the most conflict-laden material (i.e. bitch of a need = devastating, unsustainable consequences = inevitable betrayal/rebellion).
You could say that a lack of contrary demon choices for action is the best indicator of fluffy wants/needs.
On 8/2/2004 at 2:25am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
You betcha! Plus the common companion of such a feature - the Kicker with no Kick.
Best,
Ron
On 8/2/2004 at 3:07am, djarb wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Ron, I think you meant to link this thread in the above discussion of FitM and bonus dice
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On 8/2/2004 at 3:11am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Indeed I did. Or rather, I remembered the greyorm thread but forgot that it relied on another earlier one. So many posts, so many explanations ...
Best,
Ron
On 8/2/2004 at 3:23am, djarb wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Thank goodness for the wiki
On 8/2/2004 at 10:28am, Peter Nordstrand wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Hi folks,
Thank you for participating in the discussion, but you need to slow down. Right now a new post appears before I even manage to change facial expression. Now, with all due respect, please shut up and let me collect my thoughts for a second.
Cheers,
On 8/2/2004 at 9:41pm, Yokiboy wrote:
Fortune-in-the-Middle
sirogit wrote: In my personal expiereince, the possibility of canceling announcements is a feature, not a bug.
I've come to the same conclusion after reading this thread, and checking out some of the Actual Play stories. I think I have a grasp of Fortune-in-the-Middle now.
Valamir and Trevis, you're input was very valuable as well.
Ron Edwards wrote: Yay, classic question! See FitM and bonus dice, and let me know if you need more.
If it's a "classic question" shouldn't the link appear here? ;)
Actually reading the replies to this thread, along with some story accounts of other people's games cleared it up for me, and I am now psyched to give it a go myself.
Peter, I'm sorry if I added to the confusion by tacking on my own questions on top of yours. You might want to check out the Sorcerer Wiki for some advice.
Thanks,
Yokiboy
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On 8/5/2004 at 8:15am, Peter Nordstrand wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Hi again,
I didn't mean to sound grumpy, you were all moving too fast for me, that's all.
You may have to refer to my original post to get what I'm saying below.
Ron Edwards wrote: Here goes! You're in italics, I'm in bold.
Round 1 is just fine as written.
ROUND 2
DECLARATIONS
Albin looses his roll due to damage. Error here: right now, he can roll Will to overcome a stated number of dice, and if successful, may use these dice to act this time after all. Revise all subsequent actions accordingly; you're forcing Albin to lose an action he doesn't need to lose.
Hang on. Sorcerer page 108 says: "As long as the sorcerer is not carrying penalties greater than twice his or her Stamina, this attempt may be made." But Albin is carrying penalties equal to three times his Stamina, isn't he? *Thinking.* Unless you count Albins lost action in Round 1 as his "next action", in which case he is only at -3 at the beginning of Round 2 ... ah, yes, that must be it.
Ron Edwards wrote: Albin shouts to the demon to Boost his Stamina. The demon decides not to resist, so the action is a success. (However, if the demon wanted to resist, it would get a +3 bonus to its Will roll, as a result of Albin's lasting damage from the first round, right?.). Actually, all this would be part of Round 4 - it's a new action and can't be included in this round.
This I do not get at all. How can aborting to defend be a new action? Or are you saying that Albin cannot shout to his demon to Boost his Stamina, when that was his exact declaration?
Thank you for your kind assistance,
On 8/5/2004 at 1:56pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: [Sorcerer] Combat example -- is this right?
Hi Peter,
Second part first - you're right, I forgot that Albin had stated his action to command his demon back in the announcement phase. So let's see how it works.
He shouts. Demon doesn't defend. Demon does roll one die, to see whether it perceives and understands the command. (See? Don't ignore the system. Always use it in the middle of complex conflict.)
Now for the first part, which is far trickier. Due mainly to me, not to you.
Taking it from the top ...
Albin is dealing with some serious difficulties: major damage, albeit mostly temporary. Yes, according to what you quoted, he shouldn't get the Will roll - the sentence is accounting for a simple "blowout" hit that knocks the sorcerer so far for a loop that it's not even funny.
But ... some groups ignore this rule. I tend not to ignore it for sword-and-sorcery, but indeed to ignore it for Demon Cops. Sometimes (as in my post to you) I forget to remember to forget about it ...
But given that you're using the rule, yep, you're dead on.
Best,
Ron