Hi all,

I decided to use HQ for my games in a setting from a german low-fantasy game (Das Schwarze Auge= The Dark Eye).

Now I still have a problem with the concentration of innate magic. If a player decides during character creation to concentrate his magic on innate magic (talents) what does this mean in rule terms?

That's how far I got: He must abandon any other form of magic. It halves all learn and improvement costs. He can use talents as active abilities.

But which and how many talents does he get? 5 like everyone who chooses common magic? Or all the talents in his religion keyword?

Suggestions???

Cay

Hi Cay,

Caynreth wrote: That's how far I got: He must abandon any other form of magic. It halves all learn and improvement costs. He can use talents as active abilities.

Caynreth wrote: But which and how many talents does he get? 5 like everyone who chooses common magic? Or all the talents in his religion keyword?

Suggestions???

Peter Nordstrand wrote:
He gets five common magic abilities at 17. He may make up his own talents, pick talents from the sample list in HeroQuest page 29, or from his religion keyword (if any). But the total number of common magic talents is five.

Well, you asked about the rules and you got a straight answer.

Is concentrating common magic disadvantageous compared to other forms of magic? Perhaps. However, "game balance" is a concept that is highly problematic in most games, and in HeroQuest most certainly so. The character with the highest rating (after augments) in the contest at hand is the one with the advantage. Will this be the character with the most abilities? Sometimes, yes. At other times, no. Here is some food for thought: Perhaps the character with the highest number of useful relationships is the one with the greatest advantage.

Peter Nordstrand wrote: He gets five common magic abilities at 17. He may make up his own talents, pick talents from the sample list in HeroQuest page 29, or from his religion keyword (if any). But the total number of common magic talents is five.

Exception: If his narrative or list mentions talents, these are added to the keyword, but at a rating of 13.

I am a bit confused because p. 17 says: "Even abilities not listed in these rules under a keyword can be used at the keyword rating..."

I thought than that someone who decides to concentrate on any kind of magic/religion gets all the magic that fits the keyword.

Caynreth wrote: I am a bit confused because p. 17 says: "Even abilities not listed in these rules under a keyword can be used at the keyword rating..."

I thought than that someone who decides to concentrate on any kind of magic/religion gets all the magic that fits the keyword.

Well, that makes sense.

Finaly I can finish converting magic and religion to HQ.

Thanks for your help!

Cay

Glad I was of some help, Caynreth. After writing that, though, it did occur to me there was an aspect of your question I'd rather missed. If you're following the 'standard' HQ pattern of keywords where each character gets a CM keyword _and_ a 'specialised religion' keyword, it naturally arises what happens if your 'specialised religion' _is_ a common religion. And this will necessarily arise if you're concenrated in talents, since only common religions have them (as a general rule, at least).

In Glorantha this doesn't seem to be anticipated to happen much, and certainly no common religion we're seen to date seems to be constructed in the expectation of being anyone's "main religion". In another setting, you might certainly want to revisit that assumption as you write them up. In such cases, you might want to consider writing them up in terms of "all of the following talents (etc)", or "[n] from this list", or a bit of both, say.

Cheers,
Alex.

Alai wrote: If you're following the 'standard' HQ pattern of keywords where each character gets a CM keyword _and_ a 'specialised religion' keyword, it naturally arises what happens if your 'specialised religion' _is_ a common religion. And this will necessarily arise if you're concenrated in talents, since only common religions have them (as a general rule, at least).

There were some clarifications of some of this in a stink I raised on the HQ-Rules list. Mark or Rory (or both, can't remember) cleared it up pretty well after a lot of thickheaded prodding by myself. It might do to check there.

It may be that this will confirm the above (might be where Alex is getting some of this), but, IIRC, there were some subtleties that might be being missed here.

This all said, on the Hero Improvement Costs - Magical Abilities, it indicates some interesting things. First, interestingly, all magic is indicated as starting out at 13. Affinities (and linked feats, of course), Grimoires (and linked spells), relationships with spirits. One reading of this is that magic is an exception to the keyword rule - only the mundane abilities under a keyword "default" to the keyword level. There's a sort of logic to this. If this is the case, then it makes sense that Common Magic, too, would follow this rule.

But this is odd, because then the common magic keyword only makes any sense if it pertains to a common magic religion (with attendant mundane abilities). Otherwise it's just a placeholder. Further, what would happen if I were to raise the keyword? Would the five abilities go up, but not the others?

There's another reading to all of this. When a player starts out, he has all of the affinities for his god by default, or all of the Grimoires for his order, basically all of the magic for his chosen magic, all at 17. So the starting at 13 might be meant to refer to magic that's the sort that makes sense for the character to take, but lies outside the keyword technically. For instance, a character with Initiate of Destor could know another subcult affinity. If so, then does this affinity fall under the keyword or not?

If not, then it's no surprise that it starts at 13. Just like any other non-keyword ability. Meaning that what's intended is that those based on the keyword, should, in fact, start at 17. That all said, the rules for practitioners and binding spirits seem to preclude this. But this may be the exception itself.

Also, the charts list the cost for sidekicks as giving them at 13. But if they pertain to the Keyword, that's when they start at 17 as the section on them relates. So, again, the 13's may only be for non-keyword associations, and the keyword rule may superscede these costs when it applies.

One thing is sure, secrets are definitely keyword related (or seem so to me as you can't get one without the keyword), but always start at 13. So that's another strike against the theory.

But, possibly telling, here, the listing for common magic says only that the cost of a new common magic ability is 2 (1 if concentrated). It does not say at what level. This might, again, imply that it's at keyword level. Else why not list the 13 as all of the other listings do?

Note that I'm using the game aids version of the chart, which I'm assuming is the same as the one in the book.

For my money, the simplest way is just to assume that if it's in the keyword that it starts at 17 like mundane abilities do. This might contradict the rules, but it's by far the easiest way to sort it all out.

But I'd like to hear if somebody can clarify any of this.

Mike

Caynreth wrote: Actually that was the idea behind my question.

Caynreth wrote: In the setting I want to play are elves, who believe that everything special you do or are able to do arises from your personal life-energy. That made me think of talents or innate magic as described in the Basic Magic Chapter.

Caynreth wrote:
As you pointed out this is a general problem when you decide to concentrate on innate magic and therefor give up any other kind of magic. It seems to me that the creators of HQ didn't take this situation into account although they gave the rules for concentrating.

I think I will just increase the number of talents the players can include in their magic keyword if they concentrate on innate magic.

Mike Holmes wrote: If not, then it's no surprise that it starts at 13. Just like any other non-keyword ability. Meaning that what's intended is that those based on the keyword, should, in fact, start at 17. That all said, the rules for practitioners and binding spirits seem to preclude this. But this may be the exception itself.

Alai wrote: I'd suggest the first quiestion to ask yourself is, how close a mapping do you want or need between Glorantha's magic, on the one hand, and HQ's realization thereof, and this different world's, and your HQish take on it, on the other? Do you plan on using all four (and a bit?) of HQ/Glorantha's magic systems? Do they have a similar relationship to each other? If not, it might be possible to simplify quite a bit without really 'losing' anything from the core system.

Alai wrote: So it may be a fairly logical omission But as you'll have to write up your own specialiist religions anyway, it's just another step to consider one structured around talents.

Well, there's no doubt that this is what the keyword rule says. But it seems that there may be exceptions. Again, for certain, if you get a new relationship with a spirit, it starts at 13 according to the specific rule on how to do that. And that's whether or not it's part of your practice or not. Secrets start at 13, not keyword level. Affinities and Grimoires are similarly listed as starting at 13 in multiple places. This makes sense in the case of those that are outside of the keyword, in those cases, but for abilities that aren't out of keyword, it seems an odd thing to state.

The question is whether or not these 13s are following the general rule, and would be superceded by the keyword rule, or if they are exceptions to the keyword rule. I'd be very happy to hear that it was the latter. That said, the secret would be an odd case. Basically it would be saying "start the secret at 13, or at keyword level, which is basically keyword level, since the secret always applies to the keyword."

Basically, if the rule is as simple as, "All new abilities start at 13, except for those that are part of a keyword, which start at the keyword level," then it was very confusing to put the 13s in all of the example. They should have said, "starting level" and let the above rule determine what that is.

Mark? You out there? Mark'll know what the answer is.

Mike

At the risk of following up one post on the heels of the one above it:

Peter has reminded me that he's clarified the subject with his interpretation of the rules, and, indeed he has. But somehow I'm still unsatisfied. It's not that I don't believe Peter, it's that there still seems to be some problem with the rules that the explanation doesn't iron out.

Could you explain to me where my perceptions are incorrect, Peter? More importantly, I'm not so much concerned with the local interpretation for Common Magic, but I'm trying to get at the principle below it. That is, very generally, the rules of HQ are that abilities that start belonging to a keyword begin at the level of the keyword. Those that do not belong to a keyword start at 13. So, given that Common Magic Abilities seem to apply to the Common Magic Keyword, which of the following is the reason why the ones beyond the first 5 start at 13 instead of 17.


• Magic abilities do not belong to their respective keywords, proper. That is, the abilities that start at 17 are actually bumped up to represent experience in the field, but all magic (or at the very least common magic) should be considered to be outside the keyword to which it would otherwise seem to belong.
• Only the five abilities chosen belong to the keyword itself. That is, the Common Magic Keyword is tailored to include only five abilites ever, and any more must perforce be outside of the keyword.
• The general rule on starting ability applies only where not otherwise stated. That is, first follow the specific rules stated in the book, and then, if no other rule applies, then the rule about keywords applies.
• Magic abilites (at least common magic abilities) are an exception to the keyword rule. That is, they are part of the keyword, but still start at 13 as a specific exception to the general rule.
• There is no keyword rule that says that related abilites start at keyword level.
• There is a keywork rule, but it only applies post chargen.
• Something else that I'm not seeing is going on.



For any answer above, consider:
1. What the impact is on the Common Magic Keyword. For example, if 1 is the case, then, unless the rating represents a CM religion, the keyword doesn't represent anything after chargen.
2. What happens if you raise the CM keyword with Advanced Experience?

Obviously if anyone besides Peter wants to explain it to me, that's just fine, too.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: So, given that Common Magic Abilities seem to apply to the Common Magic Keyword, which of the following is the reason why the ones beyond the first 5 start at 13 instead of 17.

Mike Holmes wrote: Only the five abilities chosen belong to the keyword itself. That is, the Common Magic Keyword is tailored to include only five abilites ever, and any more must perforce be outside of the keyword.

Mike Holmes wrote: 1. What the impact is on the Common Magic Keyword. For example, if 1 is the case, then, unless the rating represents a CM religion, the keyword doesn't represent anything after chargen.

Mike Holmes wrote: 2. What happens if you raise the CM keyword with Advanced Experience?

IMO, it doesn't. (In any event.) Really represent anything, that is.

Mike Holmes wrote: See, if this is the case, and the CM keyword is an exception this way, then why not do the simpler thing, and just say that the character starts with 5 CM abilities at 17? Why have the keyword at all?

Note that many of my conclusions may be erroneous, there, but I ws trying to make sense of what info was bding given to me. Basically, it seems that if you take a Common Magic religion, then either it is part of the character's Homeland keyword, in which case it uses that keyword's level, or it's selected individually, in which case, it's a specialized magic religion, and gets its own keyword and it's own rating.

There's an associated question - what level do Affinities and Grimoires start at? If I'm an Initiate of Destor, and I pick up a sub-cult affinity, what level does it start at? Is that Affinity part of my Initiate of Destor keyword? That is, if the keyword goes up, does the ability go up with it? What about Grimoires? What if I find a Grimoire that's central to my order, but which was lost a long time ago? If I learn it, what level does it start at? Is it part of the keyword? Will it go up if the keyword does?

As it happens, I'm just in the middle of giving some of my players some keyword levels ala the Saga System. So this isn't an idle inquiry.

Alai wrote: Well, quite. I think ad hoc keywords are a rather poor idea, and the CM keyword is explicitly entirely ad hoc. If OTOH, you want to reverse-enginneer a Good Reason for this Wise Decision... I can only wish you good luck.

Note that many of my conclusions may be erroneous, there, but I ws trying to make sense of what info was bding given to me. Basically, it seems that if you take a Common Magic religion, then either it is part of the character's Homeland keyword, in which case it uses that keyword's level, or it's selected individually, in which case, it's a specialized magic religion, and gets its own keyword and it's own rating.

rather, they anticipate you'll select from one common magic religion (or cherry-pick from several), and those abilities will be at the rating of your "Common magic keyword", which is different from either of the above. Either of the above might have been clearer, mind you.

Your common magic 'keyword' consists of 5 ad-hoc abilities -- from different religions, or 'home brew'. I'd not treat this as a keyword, in the above sense. Indeed, I'd allow it purely to be 'sideways compatible' with HQ on the topic.

For 'new' affinities and grimoires: for me that's a function of the structire of the religion, or other practice, that underlies the keyword. If you're just getting an ad hoc 'extra', as in if you decide to take a Starkval affinity via the 'sub-cult' rule, just cos, it starts at 13. If your local Destor practice all worship some specific sub-cult (or a sizable number of them, as a 'standard variant'), I'd start it at the keyword rating. Likewise for your sorcerous example.

As it happens, I'm just in the middle of giving some of my players some keyword levels ala the Saga System. So this isn't an idle inquiry.

No, but it it does fall under 'making a rod for your own back'. ;-)

Mike Holmes wrote: First, again, the implication was that, in fact, under many circumstances it is the case that a CM religion can become your specialized magic keyword. Given that you can find Donandar listed in the section of many homeland's specialized religions, for instance, it's pretty obvious that you can do this there. If, OTOH, the religion was part of the homeland in terms of being in the CM section of it's listing, then it was free as part of the homeland keyword.

Second, CM keywords do come with all of the nifty stuff that other religion keywords come with in terms of a piety ability, and mundane abilities. In fact, I think they tend to have more than most other specialized magic religions. So I don't think that the above options are true. Or, at least, the word is that this is definitely not what's intended.

Alai wrote: If you're following the 'standard' HQ pattern of keywords where each character gets a CM keyword _and_ a 'specialised religion' keyword, it naturally arises what happens if your 'specialised religion' _is_ a common religion.

Yeah, Ian got it. It's a question of whether or not it "costs" your specialized magic keyword slot, and whether a stingy narrator wants to restrict the player to either one or the other of common magic and specialized magic. For example, if one has a common magic religion as part of their homeland keyword, I think that the rules as they've been explained to me would indicate that this doesn't "cost" anything. That is, it's not the same as having a common magic keyword.

To be more precise, if the narrator dissallowed the player having a character with both kinds of keywords by the rules on P 18, then the player could still take the common magic religion offered by his homeland. Those skills and all would still be available. Just not the common magic itself such as would be under the CM keyword.

OTOH, if the ability were not part an offered common magic religion for the homeland keyword, but taken instead using profession as a rationale, Lanbril for example in many places, then that counts as the character's one specialized magic keyword. Thus one can't be an Initiate of some other god, and have the Lanbril CMR keyword to start.

This all comes down to the rationales for how to balance starting characters. In general the idea seems to be to give them all the same sort of keywords - one homeland, one occupation, the Common Magic Keyword and/or a specialized magic keyword. As such, the question of when something is it's own keyword, and when it's an addendum to another is very important.

The problem is in having religion "keywords" that are actually addenda to the other keywords. Basically in coming up with the explanation regarding the CMR being listed in the homeland under common magic, you make those homelands with one (or more - not sure if there are any with more than one) actual CMR keywords more attractive than those without.

Even more potentially confusing is that it would seem that philosophically, if I understand the argument correctly, every CMR has associated abilities. It makes sense - as part of the description of the overall keyword, if the player can come up with an ability that "should" be something that the character should have as a member of the CMR, he'd get it at 17. Essentially this means that the character has keywords for each of these religions, just that they're not enumerated at start because they probably don't provide too many abilities, or just ones that are largely uninteresting.

To get really theoretical about it for a moment, the idea is that all characters have a potentially infinite number of abilities if you take the time to define them all. As a member of a family a character may have had a Burp Loudly ability that they learned from their older brothers that makes sense with any homeland keyword in which the characters are raised in families (pretty much all of them). And myriad other abilites. These, if needed, can all be brought out at keyword level if/when neccessary, in theory, as this is one of the things that keywords provide - filling in the cracks in the character enumeration. From this POV, CMRs in which the character is involved as part of being a member of the homeland certainly provides this sort of support. And I don't dispute this on a philosophical basis.

OTOH, I've heard other sources say that that's just not true - basically, there's not really much of anything going on in the religions that only have CM magic listed for them, such that membership means only having the magic in question. Essentially they don't merit relationships to religious communities or other abilities taught from participation, because they're simply too unorganized. It seems to me that this is a matter of perspective.

I think that they're both sorta true. What's problematic, however, is how many of these keyword addenda are allowable. Ones with a lot make such homelands pretty attractive. When people discuss this stuff, they then bring up the idea of limiting the number of CMR keywords associated with the character in some way. I've heard two bandied about as a good limit, for example. But some homelands only have one keyword listed.

Personally what I'm doing is to just state explicitly that all religion keywords are their own, separate, thing. This is not to make them "modular" so that you can mix and match religions between homelands - I might allow this with a good rationale, but that's not my intention. I agree that most religions are specific to certain homelands (even if they have the same name, they'll vary from homeland to homeland). The rationale is that in having the religion keyword separate from the homeland, you can discreetly "charge" for it, putting the balance back in chargen by, say, allowing each character to have only two religions overall (in my alternate universe, I only allow one as there are fewer religions). If this seems too restrictive, then perhaps three or more religion keywords could be the standard starting allotment. Not just CM religions, but all religions. So, if the limit is two, an Orlanthi could take Storm Pantheon and Flesh Man, or another combination like Storm Pantheon and Lanbril. Or even Flesh Man and Lanbril for a well explained character.

Other simple solutions present themselves as well.

The clarification I don't like, is calling a common magic religion keyword a speicalized magic keyword. Not only is if potentially confusing (I thought these were mutually exclusive for a long time), but it's an exception to the pattern again. Basically other religions have religion keywords separate from magic keywords. One can be a member of the Orlanthi Storm Pantheon, and simply be a worshipper, not an Initiate, or a Devotee - those are separate considerations. Note that this basic level of participation gives the character some very basic magic abilities - calling on their god for intervention, for instance. The majority of the magic is in the specialized magic keywords themselves, however.

As such, it's a simple thing to say that the Common Magic Keyword is simply the magic delivering keyword associated with worship of CM religions. That is, the religion keyword itself just establishes one as a member of the religion, and the CM keyword itself is where the associated magic abilities reside. Given that set up and how the CM keyword abilities are constructed, I'd rule that in fact, CM represented general facility with the magic of the mundane world, and allow new abilities to be added at keyword level.

This seems powerful, but there are mitigating factors in terms of how CM is constructed as compared to other magic keywords (in terms of, for example, breadth). Also, I'd only allow the abilities to start at 17 if that's how other magic abilities are supposed to be constructed. At the moment, I'm a little hazy on the ruling there. But the point is that whatever ability level I started CM at would be equal to what other abilities start at in other forms of magic. That is, I'm not suggesting that CM should start at keyword level, and other forms at 13. Just that they should be equal in this regard.

That said, if abilities were supposed to start at 13, then the keyword would be useless, again. So I'm tempted to go with 17 for all, again generalizing off of the basic keyword rule.

Mike

Ian Cooper wrote: In fact HQ suggests a beginning character has either a common magic keyword or a specialized magic keyword. A narrator may allow both, but its not the standard (altough a lot of folks probably play it that way.

I'm not sure we're really 'on' any specific point at this late juncture in this thread, much less the original one, so perhaps we're approaching the degree of Drift where thread death and/or split would be the more merciful alternative. As this stand, tangents seem to be getting sparked off any never really resolved. But heedless of my own advice, once more unto the breach...

Mike Holmes wrote: For example, if one has a common magic religion as part of their homeland keyword, I think that the rules as they've been explained to me would indicate that this doesn't "cost" anything. That is, it's not the same as having a common magic keyword.

To be more precise, if the narrator dissallowed the player having a character with both kinds of keywords by the rules on P 18, then the player could still take the common magic religion offered by his homeland. Those skills and all would still be available. Just not the common magic itself such as would be under the CM keyword.

OTOH, if the ability were not part an offered common magic religion for the homeland keyword, but taken instead using profession as a rationale, Lanbril for example in many places, then that counts as the character's one specialized magic keyword. Thus one can't be an Initiate of some other god, and have the Lanbril CMR keyword to start.

To get really theoretical about it for a moment, the idea is that all characters have a potentially infinite number of abilities if you take the time to define them all. As a member of a family a character may have had a Burp Loudly ability that they learned from their older brothers that makes sense with any homeland keyword in which the characters are raised in families (pretty much all of them).

OTOH, I've heard other sources say that that's just not true - basically, there's not really much of anything going on in the religions that only have CM magic listed for them, such that membership means only having the magic in question. Essentially they don't merit relationships to religious communities or other abilities taught from participation, because they're simply too unorganized. It seems to me that this is a matter of perspective.

Personally what I'm doing is to just state explicitly that all religion keywords are their own, separate, thing.

The clarification I don't like, is calling a common magic religion keyword a speicalized magic keyword. Not only is if potentially confusing (I thought these were mutually exclusive for a long time), but it's an exception to the pattern again.

Basically other religions have religion keywords separate from magic keywords. One can be a member of the Orlanthi Storm Pantheon, and simply be a worshipper, not an Initiate, or a Devotee - those are separate considerations. Note that this basic level of participation gives the character some very basic magic abilities - calling on their god for intervention, for instance. The majority of the magic is in the specialized magic keywords themselves, however.

Given that set up and how the CM keyword abilities are constructed, I'd rule that in fact, CM represented general facility with the magic of the mundane world, and allow new abilities to be added at keyword level.

I've moved the discussion of common magic religions here.

I do think that the answers to the original poster's questions will be found in the rationales for the rulings on these things (including whether or not to use the Glorantha specific rules as is for the other setting). But I agree we've gotten far afield in trying to find it.

Mike