Hi all,

Thought I would present the very barebones of my system in hope for a little inspiration from your input. This is very barebones. I do have other rules ideas but there is no need to present them as yet. I’m really dissatisfied with combat, as it is currently resolved with one roll, and seeing that this game has a lot of combat I’m looking for some more rules to add a bit of drama and even tactics-as well as seeking general opinions.

Anyway here it is:

Attributes
All the items on the Character Sheet are known as Attributes. These are your Characters personality traits, skills, passions, desires, beliefs-indeed anything that is important to your character is noted on the Character Sheet. Each Attribute has an associated level, and a dice at that level, defining the depth or proficiency of the Attribute. In system terms, there is no difference between any of the attributes; a characters traits, skills, etc. all function the same and can ‘connect’ with each other; traits can affect your skills, or the camaraderie you share with your fellow men on the battlefield can increase your chance of victory, for instance. But more on this later. Some entries we might find on a Character Sheet may look like this:
Horse training 1D6
Horse Riding 2D12
Archery 2D20
Generous 1D8
Impulsive 1D4
To understand the meaning of those dice next to the attributes let’s look at the dice ladder:

The Dice Ladder
There are seven dice, from low (d20) to high (d4), on the dice ladder, these are:
d20 d16 d12 d10 d8 d6 d4
Now this dice ladder lies within another ladder of bigger steps or levels. So if a d20 is the bottom and a d4 is the top, how do we go higher than a d4? We simply use a d20 but at level 2. The level is represented by a number before the dice. Therefore 1d20 means a dice 20 at level 1. 3d8 means a dice 8 at level 3. Although the characters will frequently transcend it, Level 1 is considered the human level. This means the average person will have average (1d10) strength, wisdom, intelligence etc.

Target Rolls
Uncontested rolls are rolled against a TN (Target Number) set by the GM. The default TN is 5 at any level. The PC rolls the dice. If the number is 5 or less then it is a success, a roll of 6 or above is a failure. In uncontested rolls the GM should move the TN up or down instead of modifying the characters dice level.

Contested Rolls
Contestes Rolls are used when two characters are in a contest. Both contestants roll their dice and the difference is noted. In contest rolls the results are always deducted from each other and the margin of success noted for the the person with the lowest (best) roll. When the two opponents are at different levels a margin can still be easily found. Just add 20 to the opponent on the lower level before deducting them. E.g. Player A rolls a 5 on a 1d8 (d8 at level 1), Player B rolls 16 on a 2d20 (d20 at level 2). Player B beats Player A by a margin of 9. In combat, a Players Character may roll a minor victory over his opponent and the opponent leave sulking in one scene, and yet in another, the GM may have the opponent tenaciously fight, making numerous rolls until his demise by a total victory.
- If there is a tie, there is a tie.
- If the difference is 1 to 5 then the victory is fairly negligle.
- If the difference is 6 to 10 it is a minor victor.
- If the difference is 11 to 15 it is a major victory.
- If the difference is 16+ it is a total victory

Total Victory
The Player can decide on the results of a total victory, In combat this may mean he chooses anyhting such as:
Death to the opponent, severe injury, the opponent is knocked unconscious or humiliated, a ransom is asked or the opponent is taken into slavery, ask the opponent for a favour/help etc. etc.

The Critical Success
A roll of a 1 is a critical success and the PC may immediately reroll with a d20 at the next level.

Equipmet
Eqipment; weapons, armour, grappling hooks etc. work differently to attributes and are used to modify them. They represented by bonus die as +1, +2, +3 etc. e.g. A dagger might be +1, a broadsword +3.

Mods
Mods or modifiers are bonuses or penalties that alter your dice ladder, they are added by the PC or GM. In a given situation the PC may modify his main attribute with other relevant attributes to gain an increase in dice. The additional attributes give a bonus in dice equivalent to the level of the attribute.
Example:
Akira is wielding his mace in war. He is using Mace Fighting (1d8) as his main attribute for the situation. His Mace has a damage potential of +3 and because mace fighting also requires strength for effectiveness he adds the level of his Strength (1d8), which is 1. Now Akira rolls a 2d16 (1d8 +3, +1) for his attack.
The GM may grant bonus dice or penalty dice (usually no more or less than 5) according to the situation. For example shooting a moving target may give a 1 dice penalty, fighting from higher ground may give a +1 bonus etc.


So that’s the basic kernel of the system.

* Critiques?
* Suggestions for tactical/dramatic/interesting combat?

Thanks,
Akuma Kyo.

Akuma Kyo wrote: I’m really dissatisfied with combat, as it is currently resolved with one roll, and seeing that this game has a lot of combat I’m looking for some more rules to add a bit of drama and even tactics-as well as seeking general opinions.
...
* Suggestions for tactical/dramatic/interesting combat?

Hi Andrew,

Yes, there is a lot more to the game than combat but my post is specifically addressing this part of the game. It is too much to go into my entire sketchbook here and at the moment it is only really combat- or multiple contents, to be more precise-that is bugging me. I understand what you are asking and realize here at the forge you like people to delve deeper than just combat stuff but in this post I really am just wondering about this aspect.

Have you checked out D&D3E or Riddle of Steel (for challenging combat systems), or IronClaw and the Window (for step dice systems) yet?

Akuma Kyo wrote: Besides, I think I am too attached to my system,..

Hi, Akuma Kyo. (Sorry, I can't tell which is your personal name.)
I'll just try to reveal what your goals seem to be in your post above:

Akuma Kyo wrote: ...it is only really combat- or multiple contents, to be more precise-that is bugging me.

...I like the idea of wargaming but the stuff I want to do is like with thousands, millions of units, think of the CRPG: Shogun: Total War.

TROS - ... Can't live with the magic section. ...combat looks terribly complex and slow. Do I really need to be so realistic (my game is more cinematic samurai/ninja stuff).

I get the feeling that there will be samurai and ninja, lots of showy martial arts with samurai swords whirling and flying shuriken from the ninja. There's really big battles as well, where the fates of rulers are decided on the battlefield. And there's no Western magic, but there might be some low level Eastern magic? Something that fits a fantasy Nippon? Players roleplay samurai in service or daimyo?

Is that about right? Or is there more?

Hi, Akuma!

First, I love your setting idea - seems like it offers a lot of potential for conflict (both social & physical). It helps, too, that I've always liked Asian-themed settings. :)

If you're still looking for some system or setting information, you might check out WotC's Oriental Adventures ruleset for d20. Even if you can't stand the d20 system, you could probably glean a few ideas from it... I remeber the martial arts stuff in particular having some neat ideas. I think there was a Sorcerer supplement that included rules for martial arts, too, though I don't remember which one.

I've got a couple of questions about your rules, though.

For target rolls, the default TN is 5. How does this work when you have a level greater then one? Do you add an automatic 20 to the TN?

Could you tell us a little more about character creation? What does it cost to move up the dice ladder, etc?

Cheers,
-joshua

Hi all,

This should be an alarm bell to you.

Sorry, couldn't edit last post but I forgot to add equipment mods, should look like this:

Combat Rolls
There are two rolls to determine combat. The first to establish initiative, the second for attack and defense.

Step 1. Both characters roll one dice for initiative.
INITIATIVE = Weapon Mastery (Main Attribute) + Any Appropriate Mods (agility, speed etc...) - Deduct Armour/weapon strength/weight ???

Step2. The better initiative roll now rolls attack, the loser rolls defense dice.
ATTACK = Weapon Mastery (Main Attribute) + Any Appropriate Mods (strength, eagle eye, etc...) + weapon
DEFENSE = Weapon Mastery (Main Attribute) + Any Appropriate Mods (armour, shield, dodge etc..) - deduct weapon strength/weight???
All rolls Moded with other appropriate attributes like; love of fair maiden, anger, hatred of huns etc. of course.

Akuma,

I think you need to take a good hard look at how the system works. For instance, 1d6 vs 1d6 can't get more than an "incidental victory". Is how you want things to run? It might be, but it does seem a little counter-intuitive.

Why is 1 a critical success? If high is good, don't you mean "max result" or something like than?

Be advised with the critical rules as they are I'll take a 1d4 against 1d6, 1d8, maybe 1d10. 1d4 has a 25% chance each roll of getting a critical, and then next round I get the big 1d20 and get a good chance of putting my opponent away. A little counter-intuitive.

Dear eef,

I think you have got it wrong.

Why is 1 a critical success? If high is good, don't you mean "max result" or something like than?

For instance, 1d6 vs 1d6 can't get more than an "incidental victory".

Just thought I would step back a bit here and reply to one of Andrews posts, only because a question he asked has stuck in my head and really made me think .

Have you checked out D&D3E or Riddle of Steel (for challenging combat systems), or IronClaw and the Window (for step dice systems) yet? In what ways, would your ideal system surpass or exceed these systems?

Akuma Kyo wrote: Hi all,

This should be an alarm bell to you.

Sorry, I somehow missed this post Andrew. I won't rule out you being right. I am very open to adopting another system, but honestly, what are the chances that one will fit your bill?

Akuma Kyo wrote: There's something about rolling a "1" that gels well with perfection.

There's several ways of making a contest "more interesting". What makes it more interesting to you, Akuma? Would it be more rolls? The interaction between weapons and armour? Stategy and tactics, like flanking or getting behind your opponent? What about the samurai semi-mystical perception abilities? What about video game options, like throwing fireballs from the hands, dancing on bamboo stalks, or flying?

remove the large steps in the quality rating table

and remove the uncontested target number of 5, replacing it with the GM rolling an appropriate number of D4 - D20, so all rolls are contested.

The difference in the two totals is the number of facts the winning player can narrate.

Akuma Kyo wrote:
Lower roll is better (within a level), roll a 1 and you can immediatley roll again at the next level up. When I say "level" I mean another whole set of 7 dice.

DIAGRAM:

LEVEL 1-------------------------|-LEVEL 2-------------------- etc..
d20 d16 d12 d10 d8 d6 d4 | d20 d16 d12 d10 d8 d6 d4 etc..
Amateur -------------Perfect | Amateur------------------Perfect

Does this help?

eef wrote:

Akuma Kyo wrote:
Lower roll is better (within a level), roll a 1 and you can immediatley roll again at the next level up. When I say "level" I mean another whole set of 7 dice.

DIAGRAM:

LEVEL 1-------------------------|-LEVEL 2-------------------- etc..
d20 d16 d12 d10 d8 d6 d4 | d20 d16 d12 d10 d8 d6 d4 etc..
Amateur -------------Perfect | Amateur------------------Perfect

Does this help?

I'm sorry but I'm being really dense here.
Let's say I have 1d4 against 2d10. I roll
1d4 3
2d10 6, 7

who wins?

Akuma Kyo wrote: And what if one character rolls a critical and the difference ends up being 35! That's a lot of facts to narrate.

Akuma Kyo wrote: Just off hand, have you ever come across anything that dealt with armies of thousands?

eef,

Andrew is righ. I know that 2d10 traditionally means 2 x d10 (roll two d10's or a d10 twice) but in this system the number before the die represents the level and has nothing to do with the number of rolls. Confusing, I know, sorry-I did think of writing it other ways; d10 (2), 2-d10 etc. but it just didn't look as neat as 2d10.

I'd also remove criticals and fumbles as well. They're just deprotagonising to players who suffer the effects of an NPC's critical or who roll a fumble themselves.

To reduce the size of the differences, I'd have each level difference being a second chance, instead. So a player with level 4 at D10, versus a second player with level 3 at D12, would roll two D10, and choose the best result, while the second player just rolls one D12.

Or let each player roll one die each, and the highest level allows that player to reroll either their own die or their opponent's die a number of times equal to the difference. So with the first player at Level 4 with D10 and the second player at level 1 with D6, both players roll 1 die each (D10 for player 1; D6 for player 2). The first player has 4 - 1 = 3 reroll oportunities. For example, player 1 rolls D10, gets: 9 and player 2 rolls D6 and gets 1. Player 1 spends a reroll opportunity and player 2 has to reroll and gets, say, 4. Player 1 then spends another reroll and rerolls their own D10 and gets, say, 3.

I've found that most conventional RPG systems dealing with large battles are very easily broken by gamist players.

Akuma Kyo wrote: Andrew, the link to rebol in your posts doesn't work - internal server error.

Akuma Kyo wrote: Also a lot of the game links at your site give a 'file not found' error.

Akuma Kyo wrote:

I've found that most conventional RPG systems dealing with large battles are very easily broken by gamist players.

Poo. I was hoping that someone had written a chess-like wargame, a game with total replay value that can't be broken-just like chess.

Thanks a lot, Andrew. My apologies for being so dense.

The dice system is making sense now, and it is rather interesting. However, be advised that the dice (if I have it right!) are going to give lots of weird results.

For instance, take 1d4 against 2d20. 1d4 has a range of 1d4+20 = 21-24, with an average of 22.5 2d20 has a range of 2-40 with an average of 21. The range of results (ignoring criticals) is 2 - 24 = +22 for 2d20 to 40 - 21 = + 19 for the 1d4. Since the 1d4 criticals 25% of the time and 2d20 criticals about 10% of the time, I'd actually give a slight edge to the 1d4 over the 2d20.

On the other hand, I'd expect 2d12 (range 2-24) to crunch the 1d4 pretty easily. So 1d4 is equal to 2d20 but is much worse that 2d12.

That may be a bug, that may be a feature. Up to you.

eef,

I'm not sure if your getting it. The easiest way to understand it is to forget about the levels for a moment. Let's pretend there are no levels, all we have are 7 dice from bad (d20) to good (d4). These are; d20, d16, d12, d10, d8, d6, d4.

Now the PC's and NPC's roll the dice in a contest, the lowest roll wins.
e.g. Akira has sword mastery of d16 vs a monster who has a fierce attack of d8. They both roll, Akira gets a 10, the monster gets a 2. The monster wins by a margin of 8.

O.K. Now let's say they are both at level 1. The dice remain the same. Akira rolls a d16 and the monster a d8.

Now let's say the monster is heaps stronger at level 2. The dice remain the same Akira rolls a d16 and the moster rolls a d8. The only difference this time is that Akira gets 20 added to his roll. So the results in this contest if the results are the same as ther previous example-Akira rolls a 10 (Now add 20 to this for being on a lower level) so he gets 30. The monster, as before, gets a 2. Now the difference is 28.

Does that make better sense?

Andrew, expect an email from me soon about S, Simple Skirmish etc...

For now I will go back to the lab and experiment with the ideas in this thread a bit further.

Thanks everyone for their input.

Best,
Akuma.

Actually when it comes to actual play my mind subtracts the higher levels' roll from 20 then adds it to the lower levels rolls.

It's sounds complex but in reality it's very simple - looking at the dice your mind can just work it out in a second very naturally.

For instance imagine Character A level 1 gets a 5 against Character B at level 2 with a 10. The difference is 15.

FUNKY TABLE:

.....Level 1 ----------------| Level 2 ---------------------------------
<--10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 | 20 19 18 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7-->
.....................^ Character A rolls 5 ............................. ^ Character B rolls 10
..................... | <----------- the difference is 15 --------> |


O.K. just try rolling the dice and you'll see what I mean. :-)

Yes I understand now. My apologies for being spectacularly dense in this thread. Thanks a lot for your patience.