My group is a fairly gamist group. I recently began a second setting with them because I was tired of what I will call 'bad decision baggage'.

Briefly, to describe, I'd made quite a few rules, setting, character and plot decisions that seemed like the best idea at the time that ended up making intra-character and inter-world balance issues that basically came down to making appropriately powered challenges an act of more and more increased suspension of disbelief (e.g. to make a challenge appropriate to the 'overpowered' characters, they had to face ridiculously high powered creatures or groups of overwhelming numbers -- while the players still thought of themselves as being only as their character level indicated).

Instead of making systemic changes, rule rollbacks, or 'fleecing' the characters of their items, I lucked out and found that people were willing to try the new setting (we went from Forgotten Realms to Eberron, for those who know; high-powered to low-powered).

However, all of this may simply be exposition. I have already ran three game nights, and just had the fourth. In the past few games, I'd been ramping up my use of distinct 'voices' for my NPCs (the actual tone, pace, timber, etc.). I have had comments in the past of being confusing because all of my NPCs have sounded the same and I didn't state who I was talking as.

So, in the most recent game, I had many different NPCs ... the first mate of a ship they arrived on, the guide through the swamp, the reptilian care-taker of the local tribe of kobolds. The kobolds didn't speak the same language so I even spoke to them in syllables at times.

The first mate of the ship had a standard gruff voice I use often, so there was little different reaction than normal. When they made fun of the kobold guide (who tried to teach them kobold, but dropped into common often), I gave it over to good roleplaying on the character's parts, because the kobolds are not a major race in the world and not highly respected. But when the game got sidetracked three times in a row with the reptilian caretaker (I used a lot of 's' es), and I confirmed it was beyond just the slight silliness of it all. I did this by stating once that I was just trying to add some color or flavor to the game; they continued to make fun of the NPC, so I started using third person to quote the character. Everyone stopped making jokes (was it because they thought I was upset?) and the game continued on.

At the end of the night, we always have everyone vote anonymously as to whom they think was the Most Valuable Character and the Best Roleplayer. One player voted me as the best roleplayer, to their 'detriment' -- these votes accrue toward extra XP. He tends to be the most honest player I have, though.

Any thoughts, questions? I'm basically posting to confess a frustration but mainly to note and evaluate why my new techniques met with some failure.

AtR

Hey Aman, can you clarify what exactly the issue is?

Are you upset that your players made fun of your voice effects?

Hello,

Ralph's (Valamir's) question is a good one, but I'm going to make some assumptions and reply on that basis. Aman, let me know if I'm starting off in the wrong place entirely.

I perceive that using characteristic voice effects, especially if they are exotic rather than tone/timing based, is often employed by GMs in order to make players feel as if they are "there" and to imagine things more clearly.

However, I also suggest that the technique is very often not appropriate for this goal. Simply put: the human imagination is already very powerful and needs little help. It can use many cues to construct what it constructs in the human's head, and representational cues are often not as good as evocative or iconic cues.

To be clear: we are all imagining as we sit at the table together, and we are all cueing one another with suggestions and feedback about what's being imagined (individually).

Representational cue: using lots of S's when presenting a serpent-man's dialogue

Evocative cue: moving slightly sinuously or "acting" the serpent-man

Iconic cue: showing a serpent-man picture when the NPC appears, or even better, a set of pictures and saying "somewhere between all these"

I have three points to make about these.

1. The first type of cue is often not sufficient, and in isolation, rarely effective at all.

2. The first type, however, may be utilized well sparingly. This is important: the "sparingly" part might be merely a single stressed S during the entire scene when the snake-man speaks, and not even early in the conversation. (same goes for the second type, actually)

3. The first type also does well (when utilized sparingly) to reinforce either of the other two types. In fact, under these circumstances of providing evocative and iconic cues, you will find that you are not providing representational cues at all - the other people at the table will start doing so spontaneously!

And finally - this is a very important thing! - all of the above ignores the single most powerful vocal technique a person can employ during role-playing. This is to utilize the pacing, tone, phrasing, and volume of one's speaking as a modern human would to get across whatever the point the imaginary character is making, regardless of setting, imaginary language, or race/species of the character.

Nothing beats this technique. All of the types of cues listed above are subordinate to it. When applied without it, all of them become less effective (and again, #1 is similarly subordinated in power to #2-3 as well).

Addenda points

1. Music is often suggested as an evocative cue. I consider it possible and often fruitful, but also problematic for a lot of reasons. Simply put, role-playing and listening to music are two different activities.

2. Pictures do very well as collages and combinations, less so as single "this is it" represenations. Again, you are provoking imagination, not making imagination unnecessary by replacing it.

3. Study speech, especially as applied in theater. Contrary to popular belief, professional theatrical speech is not bombastic and florid, like a bad Renaissance Faire guy. It is "full" (due to breathing technique), often slower than normal speech, and above all musically timed.

Again, Aman, let me know if I'm off-base from the start.

Best,
Ron

Valamir wrote: Hey Aman, can you clarify what exactly the issue
is?

Hi,

Well my experience with trying to change styles with my players is that you need to explicitly let them know what you are trying to do. Be honest with them about what you are trying to do. It takes time, particularly with players that have not played different style games and those that actively dislike other styles even though they have no practical experience.

Personally I like to create rewards for players/characters to help facilitate the style of play. Over time it becomes old hat to them.

Keith

Aman the Rejected wrote:

Valamir wrote: Hey Aman, can you clarify what exactly the issue
is?

Why did my group balk at the new techniques?
AtR

Sounds slightly as if you felt that instead of getting into the mood and the roleplaying as you'd hoped when you increased your effort in playing NPCs, players staid OOC and made jokes, perhaps were feeling uncomfortable and/or made you uncomfortable? Is that what you mean?

Were you aiming to get in-character roleplaying out of them? What response were you hoping for that you didn't get? :)

I run Midnight for a DnD group with a Gamist slant but also (more recently, for some) increasing investment in roleplaying, and I've been shifting my game style a fair bit to find the best style for us all. If you can tell us more specifically what you were trying to do and maybe include some quotes from players that bothered you if you can remember, then maybe we could offer more useful advice?

Also, have you talked to your players about how they liked the session? IME talking to players and getting feedback can help finding solutions that outsiders on some bulletin board would never be able to come up with.

Ron Edwards wrote: 2. This is important: the "sparingly" part might be merely a single stressed S during the entire scene when the snake-man speaks, and not even early in the conversation. (same goes for the second type, actually)

Ron Edwards wrote: . . . utilize the pacing, tone, phrasing, and volume of one's speaking as a modern human would to get across whatever the point the imaginary character is making, regardless of setting, imaginary language, or race/species of the character.

Valamir wrote: Are the players upset with the new technique? Did they indicate that they didn't find it fun? Was their enjoyment negatively impacted by your voices?

StalkingBlue wrote: Sounds slightly as if you felt that instead of getting into the mood and the roleplaying as you'd hoped when you increased your effort in playing NPCs, players staid OOC and made jokes, perhaps were feeling uncomfortable and/or made you uncomfortable? Is that what you mean?

StalkingBlue wrote: Were you aiming to get in-character roleplaying out of them? What response were you hoping for that you didn't get? :)

StalkingBlue wrote: Also, have you talked to your players about how they liked the session? IME talking to players and getting feedback can help finding solutions that outsiders on some bulletin board would never be able to come up with.

Aman the Rejected wrote:
I've asked on many occasions, whether face to face, one on one, via email, etc. if they're having fun, what they'd like to see ... and I get generic answers. "I'm fine, it's fine, you're doing okay, I like what I'm seeing ..." over the course of the past 3 years or so. I find it difficult to extract actual feedback from them.

AtR

ADGBoss wrote:
Ok here I think I am going to go out on a limb a little Aman. I think it is very interesting, the last part of your quote there. I am taking that mean that you have been the GM for the last three years?

ADGBoss wrote:
1) When you decided to change settings, was there any thought of having someone else run the game?

ADGBoss wrote:
2) Related to #1, do you all have other games (RPG) where you are not the GM or do you participate with another group as a player?

ADGBoss wrote:
3) If you were to stop GMing for the group would the group fold or would someone else step up to the plate?

ADGBoss wrote:
It could very well be that some of the issue is your own fatigue as a DM / GM as well as their inertia.

When you say that your attempts to introduce distinctive voice as a role-playing technique
was a failure, it begs the question of what you hoped it would accomplish.

I can think of three reasons to use distinctive voices off the top of my head:

1. It accentuates the non-human nature of the NPC

2. It differentiates the NPC from other characters and makes it more memorable

3. You wanted to set a good role-model, so that the players would start expanding
their set of in-game techniques beyond third person description.

From your story, it sounds like from the point of view of reason 1 and 2, your use of voice was a great success. The players picked up on the voice as a memorable characteristic, and they clearly understood its significance. This may have been accompanied by jokes and teasing, but for many people humorous banter is a large part of the game. (I like a bit of humorous banter myself.)

For encouraging others to immitate you, I've learned two things in comedy improv class.
One is that, when a new kind of skit is introduced, if the first group to perform it are wildly successful, there is always a dirth of volunteers to go next. Having too successful a role-model makes the new thing more intimidating for the rest, since they'll almost certainly look bad in comparison. Eventually, people pluck up their courage and do it anyway, but it takes time.

The second thing I learned in comedy class is that most people think funny voices and accents are hilarious. A good distinctive voice can disrupt the rest of the class, and will be commemorated forever. (We cannot mention ``peanut butter'' in my current improv
class anymore...) So think of the laughter as appreciation.

ADGBoss wrote:
Also, with Eberron you are really not making a big leap and the change of setting would not, IMHO be enough to institute the kind of culture shock change you were looking for. Eberron for all it's good & bad is another Big Bad D&D world, just like Forgotten Realms. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it's not all that disimilar from riding in two different kinds of Minivan. Sure one may be a "new" design but hey, it's still a minivan.

Ron Edwards wrote: Hello,

However, I also suggest that the technique is very often not appropriate for this goal. Simply put: the human imagination is already very powerful and needs little help. It can use many cues to construct what it constructs in the human's head, and representational cues are often not as good as evocative or iconic cues.

...

Best,
Ron

Aman the Rejected wrote:
I've asked on many occasions, whether face to face, one on one, via email, etc. if they're having fun, what they'd like to see ... and I get generic answers. "I'm fine, it's fine, you're doing okay, I like what I'm seeing ..." over the course of the past 3 years or so. I find it difficult to extract actual feedback from them.

Aman the Rejected wrote:

StalkingBlue wrote: Sounds slightly as if you felt that instead of getting into the mood and the roleplaying as you'd hoped when you increased your effort in playing NPCs, players staid OOC and made jokes, perhaps were feeling uncomfortable and/or made you uncomfortable? Is that what you mean?

Exactly.

Aman the Rejected wrote: Yes, the players have a hard time not using third person to quote themselves, and have made overtures that they'd like to speak 'in character'.

Aman the Rejected wrote: I've asked on many occasions, whether face to face, one on one, via email, etc. if they're having fun, what they'd like to see ... and I get generic answers. "I'm fine, it's fine, you're doing okay, I like what I'm seeing ..." over the course of the past 3 years or so. I find it difficult to extract actual feedback from them.

AtR