Lead-in: Originally posted here, but redirected to this forum.

The Backstory: I'm working on a Star Wars campaign, using a conversion of the Riddle of Steel as a mechanic (if interested, download it here).

The Quandry: My playgroup (including me) prefer what West End referred to as "the Rebellion era" -- the time period in and around Star Wars thru Return of the Jedi. However, we want Jedi in the game -- something that the Star Wars canon flatly rejects. In this case the setting is both wonderful and restrictive. I don't want to kludge on a solution -- such as "you're less powerful jedi that the empire missed in its purge". This needs to feel right.

The Solution...? My current train of thought runs something like this: I need to embrace the genre (space opera) and have the solution present itself. Star Wars is already full of ideosyncracies (a Parsec is a measure of time? hunh?) and inconsistencies, but they're cool...and we forgive them.

My current idea is this: (ps, if you're in my playgroup, look elsewhere...that means you Hermes!)

Picture a planet, off of regular trade routes, but rich in some cool ore or something, that will give the Empire some technological advantage...let's call this substance "ploticite", and the planet "Lost X"

Now, roll back the clock to BEFORE the dark time, before the Empire. (sorry, couldn't resist)

Rebpublican settler are sent to Lost X, along with a contingent of jedi protectors, to negotiate _something_. For whatever reason, the natives aren't overly friendly to the republic, blah blah (some interesting stuff to mine here).

Through a massive plot twist, the planet is cut off from the rest of the galaxy -- Ion storm? The Force intervenes? Whatever, it's a Deus Ex Machina folks, I just need to dress it up in space opera clothing.

FFwd to "rebellion era" -- the Jedi have continued training apprentices (in seclusion), and society on Lost X has evolved and changed to include the republican colonists.

The empire falls on some Republican surveys of Lost X , and surmises its worth. They find some way to break through the Deus Ex Machina, and establish contact with the planet's government.

Plot points:
- PCs are the new generation of Jedi on Lost X
- Most early adventures deal with pirates/brigands, eventually uncovering deeper schemes
- Eventually, PCs will discover the relationship between corrupt planetary government and the Empire, although their characters won't know what the Empire is
- Eventually, full-blown contact with the empire
- This opens the door to the Jedi escaping to fight along-side the Rebellion

the Question does this hang together? Am I merely reinventing the kludged solution? or is this space-opera-y enough to work?

Does anyone have a better or different idea?

Does anyone have a different solution to the initial Quandry?

Hi Eggo,

I think that's a great solution. Sure, it's a kludge, but it's the kind of kludge a professional would use if they wanted to write a novel about that.

A suggestion: if a particular event cut the planet off from the empire, then a reversal of that event is what kicks off your characters' greatest adventure. You could say, for example. that the planet is within an unstable nebula. Every so often ion storms rage through the nebula, making FTL travel impossible. The storm that has been raging for 30 years is about to stop.

So you have a story arc in several phases:

Phase 1: Adventures unrelated to the Empire. In this phase you do two things: 1) let the character's gain levels; and 2) establish what the players care about in the setting. Whatever they get attached to is what you will put pressure on in later phases.

Phase 2: The planet learns that the ion storm has abated. Contact is re-established with the rest of the Galaxy. (Maybe a rebel ship crashes on the planet.) Players discover the Empire and the Rebellion.

Phase 3: Players struggle: 1) to prevent the Empire from finding the planet; 2) to prevent factions on their own planet from contacting the Empire; and 3) try to contact rebellion leaders.

etc.

This may be more than your group is willing to stomach, but...

To hell with canon.

In fact, to hell with the plots of the three original movies (which is about as canonical as you can get). There is no Luke. There is no Leia. There is no Han Solo. Your characters are the ones who are going to defeat the Empire. You are making an alternative Star Wars with a different set of heroes, and your players get to run those heroes.

What's always bothered me about roleplaying in the Star Wars setting is that there is really only one story, because anything that's not mythic-level fate-of-the-Galaxy stuff is not true Star Wars, it's just filling in the margins around a story already written. If you want to truly capture the spirit of the original movies, you can't allow the original movies to have happened; you have to let your players remake them.

The Quandry: My playgroup (including me) prefer what West End referred to as "the Rebellion era" -- the time period in and around Star Wars thru Return of the Jedi. However, we want Jedi in the game -- something that the Star Wars canon flatly rejects. In this case the setting is both wonderful and restrictive. I don't want to kludge on a solution -- such as "you're less powerful jedi that the empire missed in its purge". This needs to feel right.

Wow...I mean wow. That's why the Forge is great. twenty minutes later, and the discussion is firing on all thrusters.

Alan -- thanks for the encouragement. I knew when I posted that my concerns were probably 50% legit and 50% cold feet...a little "shove" never hurts. The structure points are also excellent. I generally don't craft "beginning, middle, end" stories -- at least, not consciously.

Sydney -- yeah. that's a hell of an idea. I'd be all over it. However, knowing my group, I think that it would sink the game. It really comes down to a simple matter of how much work will it be for me to overcome the players' dislike of my monkeying with canon (tweaking is "ok" -- but that sort of wholesale tossing is generally frowned on). That being said, I could get them hooked on the story, and then spring the "new reality" on them, in a very definitive, clear fashion. Perhaps their attachment to the game would overcome their concern over "rewriting history".

Imagine: the campaign kicks off much as I suggested. progresses much as I suggested. This "lulls" (not the mot juste, but it will suffice) the players into the mode of "playing a side-story". Then, spring the trap. The Death Star blows up Tatooine or something -- with the "real heroes" (Luke, Ben, Han, Chewie, the Droids)on it. From there, the plot starts anew. This could be a wild ride.

Eric -- you're absolutely right. I'm kludging. What I failed to get across clearly in my original post is this: am I dressing it up sufficiently, or in the right fashion, so that the kludge becomes palatable?

I'm not 100% sure where you got the "mecha" angle -- i was trying to refer to a mineral resource. However, some other technology could be just as workeable -- it's got to be a plot device that the empire wants. It could just as easily be a better hyperdrive, or a device for cleaning up throttled admirals. Mecha is cool, but I'm not sure I want to start mixing in something so cross-genre loaded. (this makes me think that I've got to write a Robotech conversiong for Riddle of Steel)

re: Jedi-only campaign. Not so. It wouldn't have to be jedi-only. However, I know my guys -- they'll want at least one. This means I've got to keep that option wide open.

keep it coming you guys! this is a huge help.

Well, I'm geologically challenged.

Anyway-

Solid concept.

From what you've said so far, I think you know what you're doing. Hope you keep us informed.

May the wind be always at your back,
-Pyron

I like the idea of replaying the events of the actual trilogy. I think you could do it too without the players even knowing. At least not for a long time. Just don't make any mention of Luke, Leia, Han, etc. By the time the players realize that they don't even exist they should wrapped up enough in their own game that they won't care.

greedo1379 wrote: I like the idea of replaying the events of the actual trilogy. I think you could do it too without the players even knowing.

If you want to go less whole-hog than sydney suggests (although I like his suggestion a lot) borrow a page from the White Wolf method: the book might be wrong. Contradictions mean: make up your own rules.

Another option is the Amber option: what you read is a bunch of lies told by one side. I do not know how Star Wars canon is written in the books, but if the statement is 'between X and Y times, there are no Jedi', there are still ways of slipping out of that, such as:

1. The book is voicing the popular thought of history - there are Jedi's, no-one knew.
2. The book is voicing the thought of the 'victor' - flat-out lie.
3. After Y, those Jedi's had to come from somewhere - what if whatever originated them at time Y also did so somewhere between X and Y?
4. No Jedi also means no dark Jedi? If there are dark Jedi, the statement's already wrong. Or if there are dark Jedi, have a few of them manage to come back to the Light Side. Now there's a story for ya.

I'd try to apply Occam's Razor - the simplest explanation is best. Depending on what explanation for 'no Jedi' your playgroup uses, use one of the above examples. If your playgroup says: 'no, the book is right, it's just as the designers have written, there are no jedi' - then they shouldn't be wanting to play jedi. They can't have their cake and eat it - something's gotta give. The 'planet lost in hyperspace' explanation is more of a kludge (although a fairly good one, SF-wise) than just acknowledging that the 'there are no jedi' statement might be flawed.

Good luck with it!

Greedo & Andrew -- how would you go about handling "plot prescience"? If we're going to play the movies, then the players know that Moff Tarkin won't evacuate the Death Star, and they're going to smoke him, that Admiral Ausul will come out of lightspeed too close to Hoth, allowing the alliance time to "prepare for ground assault", and so on.

Obviously, character-driven points will begin to diverge from canon, but a lot of important background events become pre-ordained.

Or, is you suggestion a more broad one:

"get involved in a galactic rebellion"
"destroy the death star"
"evade the empire's vengeance"
"topple the emperor"

Alternatively, did your game become more of a "homage" -- enjoying going through the motions of the films (this is fun for some -- I really enjoy quoting SW), and filling in with your own cool bits where the dice allowed?

Curious how you'd handle this.

Tobias -- I really like the whole "the films are Imperial propaganda" angle. My only concern is, if that's the case...why did the empire lose?

Is it worse. Are the films New Republican propaganda -- demonstrating to a populace how much better they have it now, as compared to when the {big booming voice}evil galactic empire{/big booming voice} ruled them with an iron fist.

That's got legs...to play the "real" history. Then, there could be all sorts of alternate takes on the big events of the movies. Turn the tables, or at least knock them slightly off-kilter...what if Luke, Leia, etc. weren't the real heroes that everyone thought them to be...

Great. Now I've got to go think again! :)

Hello there,

Eggy, you may be interested in the "underbelly concept" that I presented in Open/closed settings.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote:
Eggy, you may be interested in the "underbelly concept" that I presented in Open/closed settings.

In the campaign that I was involved in we solved these problems with several assumptions:

The galaxy is just too big for the Vader to kill all of the Jedi. Our characters have been in constant hiding since the Purge. (Obi-wan and Yoda did it, why can't we?)

The Emperor has other servants who are powerful force-users in their own right. Our anagonists had stolen and researched enough information to become potential rivals to Vader, though they were bidding their time... (This was prior to the release of the prequels, so the rule that there were only two Sith lords at a time really didn't hinder us...)

We could save the galaxy without the galaxy knowing.

Main characters could be introduced, but our characters never had sufficient resources or opportunity to alter their canonical fate. (Thus, the main story becomes color.)

Luke is a whiner... (Ok, this isn't an assumption, but I had to say it.)

So, bascially, we were all that was left of the Jedi knights, save Yoda, Obi, and Luke. We fought powerful Dark-Siders who were very nearly Vader's equals by eventually thwarting their plot to unearth an ancient and powerful Sith weapon. (It was similar to the new Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy game, I think they stole their plot from us.)

Cheers
Jonathan

I like your idea of a planet cut off from the rest of the galaxy harboring Jedi, but I think you could do it without having to add something like an ion storm to the Star Wars universe. Jedi are incredibly nifty, but so far as I know (really, I haven't read the books or anything), they can't travel through hyperspace with the power of the Force alone...

If you just need a couple, why not have them on a ship on which, for whatever reason (sabotage!), the hyperspace drive went out? Their normal-space drive (or the Force) could get them up to nearly the speed of light, but thanks to Einstein, the rest of the universe then moved at a much faster rate of time than the the people in the ship... (The Forever War option. ;) )

Or, to get back to the planet: Jedi crash-landed on a planet without sufficient tech to rebuild the ship? They could have taught new students, or worked to up the tech level, or done both...

How about a Jedi prison camp? Some Evil Empire type managed to capture a handful of Jedi, dropped them off on an out-of-the-way planet for future use, and then his ship got blown out of the ether before he got back to tell anyone...

Or; Force presience might have helped a couple Jedi in the temple get a shipload of students out just before it was blown to smithereens (maybe they were on a field trip?) and they felt it was their duty to protect and raise the sprogs instead of defeating the Empire by themselves...

Or as ErrathofKosh mentioned, why couldn't your Jedi have been in hiding, too? Seems like heros do it in the canon.

I'd think that any Jedi who lived through the Purges would be slightly crazy from the mental echoes of all his friends dying when he was unable to help, just to offer an even more tangential bit of brainstorm. :)

The one trouble with the planet X solution, to my mind, is that the PCs are likely to feel attached to defending their planet, and it might be hard to justify a leap into the full stage of Star Wars space.

In reply to the original post: No, I don't think that'd really be an acceptable kludge/dupe.

I'm assuming that beyond just wanting "Jedi in the setting", your players - at least some of them - want to have Jedi characters under their control.

The easiest thing would just be to take a page from the movies: you start out as Class A (Farmer), and wind up becoming Jedi after the first couple of levels (in the video game sense); the Jedi Knight/Jedi Academy games follow this pattern as well.

This could work with your "lost planet" scenario just fine if you use something like a Soul Forge or maybe a secret cache of lightsabers and a Holocron. Maybe the planet had some interesting Force fluxations/tides, and a small school was setup to study it. Then the ion storms came (I'd put them on a longer time frame, hundreds of years), the original school was razed and forgotten. . .

If that's unappealing, I'd go with Madeline's suggestion of getting lost in time; they get up to .99c or so and just hang there interminably. Or some other hyperspace/stellar accident that causes them to blink out of real time for a dozen or more years. You might even make these old guard Jedi; we're talking Old Republic. Maybe it was a training vessel, so the characters are still untrained/untested Jedi. Perhaps these Old Republics will think that this Rebellion isn't up to snuff, and -they- are going to either take charge of it, or start a third faction.

..okay, I think I'd definitely play in that "Old Republic Idealist" thing. These Jedi, while technically young, would come from a far more enlightened age (not just the 20-odd years Obi Wan is talking about, but a couple thousand). The first few adventures might be feeling out these Rebellion and Empire factions.. and then deciding we want a third option, and that option is -us-. Now you're not only playing in canon on your own terms, but have a chance to "legitimately" affect it, rather than just usurping the original protagonists' roles.

Eggo von Eggo wrote: Sydney -- yeah. that's a hell of an idea. I'd be all over it. However, knowing my group, I think that it would sink the game.....That being said, I could get them hooked on the story, and then spring the "new reality" on them, in a very definitive, clear fashion. Perhaps their attachment to the game would overcome their concern over "rewriting history".

Eggo von Eggo wrote: Sydney -- yeah. that's a hell of an idea. I'd be all over it. However, knowing my group, I think that it would sink the game. It really comes down to a simple matter of how much work will it be for me to overcome the players' dislike of my monkeying with canon (tweaking is "ok" -- but that sort of wholesale tossing is generally frowned on).

Sydney Freedberg wrote: [Here follow STAR WARS SPOILERS for anyone reading this thread who actually hasn't seen all the original movies 10 times]

To really make this work, you need to come up with a substitute for "I am your father." It's the moral pivot of the entire original trilogy, the moment when Good looks Evil in the eyes and realizes they're related, but it doesn't matter if there's no Luke. So Darth Vader -- or the Emperor -- or a new villain you invent -- needs to turn out to be somebody significant to some or all of the player characters: their dad (not Luke's), their former Jedi mentor, their long-lost brother, their sister, their son ("No -- you are my father" -- works if someone's playing an older Jedi).

Props to Sydney for pointing that out -- that pivotal "I am your idolized father" has to be chosen by the player(s). That means, whomever they latch onto in their own backgrounds, whomever they write about in their histories -- blood relative or not -- is the person to go with.

So, let's say you have one player who is just ga-ga over Mace Windu, and so is his character. Master Windu is Jedi perfection to this person, the ultimate "what it is to be a butt-kicking Jedi warrior do-gooder in complete harmony with the Force" to them.

Who ends up being the evil Emperor, or at least his horribly corrupted servant?

Oh...oh...oh...FUCK NO! NOT MACE WINDU!?

Yep.

As to the "no Jedi" issue. Hasn't that been gotten around in fan films and even canon books for years now? I mean, I swear the number of Sith apprentices running around serving under Lord Vader, and opposed by a few hidden stalwarts of the Jedi Order, is practically

For real kicks and shits, the Jedi in your game might be former Sith apprentices -- renegades from one of Darth Vader's (or whomever) breeding progroms (or training academy). No Jedi? No. No Jedi ORDER.

Wow. That'll teach me to wander away from my computer for...oh, an hour (grin!)

Ron -- I find the underbelly concept intriguing. I also concur with Alan -- making it workeable seems like an awful pile of work. It's not that I don't believe that the game is worth the work -- I just need to keep things realistic. Unfortunately (for me), my play group is tricky when it gets into things like agreeing not to monkey with backstory -- it's not that they're contrary, it's just that they're likely to get caught up in things and forget themselves.

You make some pretty strong assertions in that post (Ron Edwards? Strong assertions? Get out!). I'm curious -- do you believe that underbelly is the only way to make a situation like this "work" (whatever that means), or have you revised your opinion since writing the underbelly post?

Also, doesn't playing underbelly by definition reduce the grand feel of the game (not the backstory)? Sure the characters are contributing...but are they doing so on an epic scale?

Finally, I'm having a hard time factoring jedi characters into an underbelly campaign. Perhaps you can see a way that it could be done that I can't.

Alan -- just to be clear, d20 advancement rates aren't an issue. The mechanic is a home-baked conversion using the Riddle of Steel engine.

Errath -- intellectually, I agree 100% with your assessement of the "galaxy is too big" issue. I can't put my finger on it, but something just doesn't "feel" right about it. Maybe it's the passion the Guinness uses when delivering his "Vader helped the Emperor hunt down and kill the Jedi" speech -- I just can't shake the feeling that if they were accessible, they were killed. This, of course raises the interesting question of why did Ben and Yoda survive? Was it Anikin's respect for his former masters? Or was it something else?

As a side note, as we (my group) aren't very fond of Episodes I or II, we have no compuction about tossing anything out of them that we dislike -- we're fickle that way.

Madeline -- I'm not tied to an Ion storm. All I need is a device that cuts the characters off from the galaxy until its purpose is served. Ion storm merely was the first thing that popped into my head. Re: ftl travel. Sorry, hard science has no place in Star Wars. I don't want to start dealing with relativistic physics in space opera. However, some of your other suggestions have great potential. I never considered "conventional" stranding as an option. Perhaps that's an even better way to introduce the empire to the game -- instead of the lure of a resource, some junior officer finds evidence that "all that time ago" some Jedi were lost in that part of the Galaxy.

anonymouse -- see my concerns over einstein, above. However, actually having a school set up on the planet is a nice idea -- especially if it's now ruined. That might tie in nicely with the "empire paper trail" concept.

Sydney -- yowza! that's some heavy analogy you're whipping out there! To paraphrase Kirk, "Don't mince words, Freeberg, tell me what you really think." :)

It is a dangerous path to tread, but knowing my guys the way I do, I think it's probably safer to spring it on them later once they're attached to their characters than tell them up front. They're sort of contrary/lazy guys, so if they think it's going to be "easy", then they're all for it. Once they're in, they don't want to give up all of the "work" they've done... :)

re: "I am your father". Abso-friggin-lutely. Oddly enough, I'd already started working on that angle as a side plot. But as you say, it's so critical to make the struggle have personal weight for the characters. This is made trickier by the fact that in SW, Luke was the main protagonist, so the event centered around him. It would be nice to think that whatever I did could be more inclusive -- rope in all of the main PCs. In that respect, an old Master may seem the immediate choice, but just about anything is possible. Doubly so if I choose the revisionist history angle (the films are New Republican Propaganda) -- what if the "horrible revelation" is that someone they've held in high regard (yoda?) is in fact not all he seems?

All -- the more I think about it, especially within the framework of the Riddle of Steel's SAs, the "epic" nature of the conflict will naturally flow from the PCs. I need to taylor the game to their SAs (which may require some coaching during chargen, but that's another issue). Perhaps saving their planet is the epic scale for this story. After all, that's pretty big.

This is really helpful -- keep it coming. I think that I'll be able to start actually working up plot threads and important NPCs soon. If I didn't give your post the attention it deserves, my apologies -- I've been writing this response in between diaper changes. (not mine!)

Xero & Greyorm --

you must have posted while I was writing my last reply. I will get to your posts ASAP, but now, I've gotta go to bed.

Well I always thought that this makes perfect sense.

Of course then again I'm one of those people who think that the SW saga has things turned all upside down.

We have the old republic, which seems to be mostly ruled by one sort of nobility or the other. You know, princesses, counts... Hardly sounds like the epitome of democracy and equality. Of course it isn't. It's highly ineffective and corrupt, concerned only with keeping themselves in comfort, but never wanting to d damn thing to upset anyone, especially where it might have negative economical influences. (For example the Trade Federation is free to enslave all they want, as long as they keep do it at some more backwater places and help pay for the luxurious lifestyle of the senate.)

We have the jedi's, who just love to play mind games with people, who similarly refuse to do much anything except sit on the sidelines for most of the time. I mean they could get killed or something, that wouldn't be fun. And oh, what a fucked up religious sect the jedi's are, with all the "emotion bad, posture good". It seems what they're teaching is basicly "it's best not to care". Wipe out those sick bastards? I'm all for it. I mean come on, guys who after they die show up as creapy ghosts? How twisted is that?

Then we get the empire. They make things work. Okay, so maybe that takes some hardhanded police action somewhere along the line, but is this because they really like it, or is just because of the unrelenting warfare and terrorism of the rebellion against the empire? Let's look at some events from the POV of the actual good guy, Palpatine, who cleansed this old system and kicked the fattened and corrupt no-good senators back to their place, creating a new way of effective governing.

Unfortunately the old nobility had a surprisingly strong support, which was further strengthened by the flat out lies and propaganda they spread of the new empire. (Tricks they had all learned to master at the old senate.) Palpatine has no choice but to put down the rebellion with force. Unfortunately, by the time he can bring himself to wage war, the rebellion has grown too strong. The war goes on, and the rebels flat out refuse to negotiate peace, which causes more and more of the empires power to be concentrated on warfare, which then causes the empire to lose focus on their real aim; to make the universe a better place for the average Joe. (Palpatine himself comes from very humble beginnings.)

Palpatine sees that the universe is not ready to accept his ambitious new order, and that he is losing power to the local governors and to the officers (most of whom had already learned nasty tyrannical habits during the old republic), even though his friend and ally Anakin has tried to keep control and has even personally executed some of the most ruthless officers.

The war must stop, but the rebels will not quit or negotiate peace, so palpatine decides the only way out is the destruction of the empire. He orders the reconstruction of the immensely unpopular Death Star, a symbol of horror and over-the-line military operations, in a calculated move to ensure the rebellion gets a huge boost in popularity. For it's protection he orders a fleet that looks credible as a threat, but isn't really strong enough to stand against the newly grown rebel fleet. As the fight of the fleets seems to reach a pivotal point, he then blows up the death star, ensuring the rebels victory and at the same time killing the most ruthless and corrupt of his officers. (The rest of them of course 'happen' to be in the doomed-to-lose empire fleet.)

Before the final moments, Palpatine makes an effort to bring together a broken family, by summoning young Luke Skywalker through the use of Force, to meet his father, Anakin. Palpatine makes a last, desperate attempt to make Luke see through the falsehood of Yoda's teachings and the old Jedi way. "Oh, no, my young Jedi. You will find that it is you who are mistaken... about a great many things."

He tells Luke he's quite aware of the rebel attack, as he himself has manipulated it into action. He explains to him how this is all for the best, and tries to explain to him why after the rebellion it's important that the rebel alliance is disbanded as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately the Skywalkers are not really known for their reason and open-mindedness, and Luke, the young fanatic that he is, refuses to understand a word, and decides Palpatine is trying to trick him into betraying the alliance. After a while, Vader and Palpatine realize such a raving fanatic, hopelessly mesmerized by Yoda's mind tricks and blessed with such immense powers, could become a terrifying menace, and would be extremely dangerous as a leading figure of the new republic. They try to kill Luke, but Anakin hasn't the heart to kill his own son, and Palpatine is unable, due to the fact that he came unarmed, hoping to win Luke's confidence. Palpatine, an old and broken man, who understands that all his efforts will go to ruin, and fearing that the new republic will be just the same as the old one, if not worse, decides to end his life in a way that ensures that his spirit is destroyed. He does not want to eternally watch mankind fight itself. But alas, he is too weak to walk, and so in an emotional moment his old friend Anakin carries out the final request of his mentor, and drops him down to the reactor core. The following electrical discharges seriously disrupt Anakins life support systems, and he too dies.

Afterwards, Luke gives his own version of what happened in the Death Star ("at the last moment my father repented, he was a hero after all"), and the rebellion, desperately trying to figure out what happened to the Death Star, create on official version of the events out of some battlefield boasting, reasoning that what happened to the first Death Star must we what happened to the second. (Yeah right, like they hadn't prepared for that after the first time.)

After the war, the new republic write a typical winners history, describing Palpatine as a monster and the empire as an oppressive military regime.

And so and and so forth. Makes more sense than the original storyline :)

Itse wrote: ....I'm one of those people who think that the SW saga has things turned all upside down....

Unfortunately, rewriting the Empire as the "good guys" requires a serious rewrite of canonical history. Otherwise, it's nothing more than saying, "Hey, the Nazis really were the good guys!" and trying to justify that stance based on existing history. The Empire, despite any professed noble intentions, was inarguably evil in any number of behaviors, choices, and undertakings.

As an example, much of the rampant corruption within and ineffectiveness of the Senate towards the end of the Old Republic was engineered by the Sith -- prior to that, things were sailing along smoothly and well, the Republic was a shining beacon of enlightenment, etc. -- so while the Empire might make the claim that they were improving the galaxy, they were also directly (and consciously!) responsible for those very problems in the first place.

I bring this up as, if the route of "Rebellion: evil; Empire: good" is followed, very definite changes would have to be made to the canon regarding how the Empire has behaved since its inception as well as during its birth.

Otherwise, it's just "good" by justification, usually along the lines of the ends justifying the means. As an example, blowing up planets full of innocent men, women and children just to make a point -- even if, say, there was a superweapon hidden there -- is not the act of a non-evil individual or entity. Even given the latter "explanation", there's simply no possibly way the majority of the population were responsible for the supposed crime (whether it be a superweapon or a government inciting rebellion), and thus deserving of such an execution.

Just a couple things to consider working within if you decide to go that route or try it out as the basis of the setting.

WARNING: DO NOT READ THE FOLLOWING IF YOU AVOID SPOILERS (for Star Wars EpIII)

In any case, I'll put it white and and push it to the bottom of the box to make it harder to accidentally read. Highlight the text for an easier read...


























There have been rumors of Anakin (in EpIII) going to the Jedi temple and turning on a signal of some sort that calls all of the Jedi back to Coruscant. Later, Yoda is purported to reverse this message and signal a galaxy wide warning to Jedi. If these rumors are true, there would be Jedi in hiding other than Yoda and Obi-wan...

Itse, while as a folklorist I agree with Sidney in disputing your interpretation of the original Star Wars cycle (it fits Lucas's new cycle perfectly, however),

I WANNA PLAY IN THE CAMPAIGN YOU JUST DESCRIBED!

Playing heroic normals and hunters who take out those evil terrorists led by their World-of-Darkness mages (who later become wraiths) and their lineage-is-everything hierarchy! Defying their pseudo-science that claims Force abilities are part of a blueblood aristocratic legacy and their metaphysics which valorizes apathy and teaches that a fallen Jedi can be forgiven for billions of mass murders simply by murdering another Jedi to save his heir apparent son! Working against birthright as the foundation of moral and metaphysical worth! Hurrah!

Who says canon is sacrosanct? *grin!*

Doctor Xero

The myth is shattered for me...

I see the truth now. Luke is just another whiny aristocrat bastard, trying to work his way into the upper echelons of the bureaucracy-in-exile by becoming the "tribal shaman." And Han, he's nothing but a "privateer" and mercenary, who is trying to gain power through marriage and feats of daring terrorism against the new regime.

Of course, Errath of Kosh always knew this to be true...

I have one more suggestion. (Yes, I remember what this thread was originally about.) One of the campaigns I played in took place in the Outer Rim. There were plenty of unimportant Imperials about, who thought they were important and made life difficult for us. We faced other challenges as well, but none included lords of the Sith. (Though we faced a few minor dark siders...) This works well in a huge galaxy, full of many strange things. I don't know how well it would work in Middle Earth or Glorantha...

Just some thoughts...

Feed your agressive feelings,
Jonathan

Ok. I think the best way for me to redirect this thing is as follows:

What I want to Play on Summer Vacation, by Darcy Burgess
- Star Wars Game, Riddle of Steel engine
- "Rebellion Era"
- Character-driven story of epic scope
- Jedi PCs an option -- players' choice
- Respect SW Canon's spirit
- Build on RoS's strengths--the SAs

For all intents and purposes, "Canon" is defined as SW, Empire, Jedi. Comics, Books, Phantom & Clones are all "resources" -- to be mined for ideas, but nothing else. This most closely approximates the emotional involvement/attachment my play group have with the SW universe.

I'm going to phrase my ideas & responses within the framework of these goals.

Xero -- cool idea for trek. That would certainly work, especially when basing something on an episodic master. It's a tricker trick to pull with SW, though, isn't it. The canon is one big plot with a few side-plots (not many, really -- death star run, training sequence, saving Han are the important ones.) However, I am eager to eliminate continuity lawyering by any means possible. Good term.

greyorm -- I think I'd rather have the goofy jedi with the snake neck as my big bad villain. Not "wooden-face Windu". Sheesh. :) But as you say, the big villain's got to come out of character attachment.

The trick will be either:
1) blindsiding them with the revelation in a believable manner or,
2) building to it in a way that they know its coming, but enjoy the ride

Itse -- the yoda link was priceless. If I go down the revisionist history route, however, I can't go that far. The propaganda needs to be a question of degree and fine details, not wholesale fabrication. The rebels still need to be the good guys. But maybe the shine isn't as bright as it appears...and maybe a few things happened slightly differently.

All -- I'm bordering on chucking my original premise...but it still holds appeal for me (probably because it's been bouncing around in my head so much). I'm also still toying with definitely ending the canon storyline (the "blow up tatooine option). However, doing that within a "propaganda film" theory is tricky -- that's just a different form of wholesale fabrication.

Eggo von Eggo wrote: ...the big villain's got to come out of character attachment...

Eggo von Eggo wrote: Ok. I think the best way for me to redirect this thing is as follows:

What I want to Play on Summer Vacation, by Darcy Burgess
- Star Wars Game, Riddle of Steel engine
- "Rebellion Era"
- Character-driven story of epic scope
- Jedi PCs an option -- players' choice
- Respect SW Canon's spirit
- Build on RoS's strengths--the SAs

Here's another possible solution.

We know that Luke with the help of Han and others took out the original Deathstar, and we know that he convinced Darth Vader to take out the Emperor.

But surely the entirety of the Empire is not controlled by this one ship and this one figure, however powerful!

The only way the Empire would fall without the Emperor is if all the possible evil replacements for him were already out of the way.

The end of the Deathstar only weakens the Empire's military might, but surely they have other means of enforcing their domination, and those had to be taken out as well.

For all Darth Vader's power, was he truly the only fascinating villain in the entirety of the Empire, or is he simply the only villain with whom Luke and company joust?

There is no reason not to have an entire group of Star Wars heroes taking care of the other end of the Empire while Luke and company take care of their end. Hell, you might even want them to coordinate with Luke and friends, Ackbarr telling them, "You lead the charge to take out the Empire's Retroactive Extinction Tachyonic Laser Cannon while Luke and Han lead the charge to take out the new and improved Deathstar!" And while Luke and company take out Darth Vader, they can take out Barak Kuror, Vader's mad dog apprentice!

As for Jedi Knights: perhaps what makes Luke special is NOT that he is the last Jedi but rather than he is the Son Of The Traitor Jedi and that he is the Most Powerful Jedi. This would be a minor change, really, preserving Luke's singularity as a Jedi Knight yet allowing others to have Force powers.

As I wrote before, I think a Star Wars campaign can be fun!

Doctor Xero

Building on the Doc, the first Star Wars novel to come out years back not based on the series (nineteen eighties, I think) suggested that there were twelve top commanders, each head of his own fleet, and that one of them--a fascinating alien who was the only alien to hold such a position--was way out the far end of the galaxy at the time of the battle. He then begins consolidating his power to attempt to disrupt the new Republic and reestablish the Empire, with himself at its head.

As I say, he makes a fascinating villain; I wish I could remember enough about that book to point you to it (it was first of a trilogy, and he continued through all three). You could have your people out at the far end of the galaxy, possibly trying to prevent him from reaching the battle.

Given that's not canon, you could have several such fleets in various parts of the galaxy, player characters trying to deal with them.

That doesn't necessarily mean combat; all kinds of possibilities emerge.

--M. J. Young