Topic: Clark Ashton Smith
Started by: xiombarg
Started on: 8/27/2004
Board: Adept Press
On 8/27/2004 at 7:43pm, xiombarg wrote:
Clark Ashton Smith
I've been trying to catch up on my "classic" S&S reading, and I've ended up reading a lot of Clark Ashton Smith stories, especially since most of them are available online if you know where to look.
I have to admit, however, that after reading Hyperborea, Xiccarph, and Zothique stories, which I believe were the ones recommended in Sorcerer and Sword, I'm not sure I see the direct relation to the sort of genre you talk about in the supplement, Ron. I mean, sure, there isn't any "wimpy-sorcerer vs. stongman" stuff here, though sorcerers are often old and cotchety, and there's a lot of color, but I don't see a whole lot of important decision-making. I suppose it's Smith's overlap with horror, which requires a certain amount of helplessness, but it seemed to me the stories didn't resound with the sort of feel of decisions made that's present even in the Elric saga. Was I missing something?
Also, I'm stunned that Averoigne cycle isn't mentioned at all. I mean, sure, it's not the distant past, but it's far enough back, and the sorcerers in the setting are very Sorcerer, often having to choose to embrace the black arts to stop some sort of meance. Really, not unlike the "Black Woods" setting from Sword and Sorcerer...
On 8/27/2004 at 7:58pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Clark Ashton Smith
Hi Kirt,
That's a good call. I think Smith definitely falls into the "eldritch atmosphere and humor" camp, at the expense of plot and theme, rather at the other end from Howard whose plots sometimes run away with themselves into a fight-and-done ending. It took a master like Leiber to find a way for those two things to support one another fully. I do think that reading Smith is perfect for getting into the "we are not in Kansas" mode, and that he is the clear chassis upon which The Dying Earth, for instance, was built.
As for Averoigne, well, you're right. How about listing all the references for the eager reading public here?
Best,
Ron
On 8/27/2004 at 8:45pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: Clark Ashton Smith
I'm away from my book, but in my opinion. the CAS Sword & Sorcery stuff is probably one of the *best* recommendations in Sorcerer and Sword. I say so as I consider the books a necessary purgative for those of us exposed to any of the fiction written after 1960. For me, it provided one of those important "conceptual" breaks from the later writings, along with the work by Vance (only his Dying Earth short stories) and Peake's Gormenghast. For me, it keeps the ideas in S&S from being simply pulp sort of Conan-esque writings.
I'm away from my book right now, so I'll go into greater detail next week when I return home, but there are a couple of points I'd like to make about the books. The thief tale stories such as the 39 Girdles and the other story told by the same character (sorry - forget the name, I'll mention it later) are really interesting caper stories, preceeding Nifft and Fafhrd and Grey Mouser for some period - I think they're great examples of the S&S genre.
On the other hand, I think the Hyperborea story like "The Coming of the White Worm", "Death of Malygris", "The Last Incantation", some of the Maal Dweb stories, and in particular, "Empire of the Necromancers", are wonderful examples of super-powerful sorcerers and allow us to see the Sorcerer-side of the story, rather than the perspective from some barbarian or a couple of thieves.
Also, I think the Averoigne stories are great examples for the Dark Forest setting in S&S.
Lastly, one story has the epitome of what I would call a Kicker: "The Death of Illalotha" which has a perfect example of the "choice" that you say is absent: a King, dependent upon his jealous and cruel wife returns home to find his ex-lover dead. As he leans over to pay his respects to her, the deceased lover whispers "Meet me in the crpyts at midnight" in hi ear. Seconds later, his queen-wife demands he meet her in chambers at midnight.
I'm curious to hear others weigh in... and I'll go into greater detail when I get my book. For those interested in the book form, the Fantasy Masterworks has a nice collection of the stories available in the UK.
--Garett
On 8/27/2004 at 8:53pm, xiombarg wrote:
RE: Clark Ashton Smith
Ron Edwards wrote: As for Averoigne, well, you're right. How about listing all the references for the eager reading public here?
Well, there is already a list of the stories available, and most of the stories are available from the other link I posted above.
In particular, I think the following are most notable:
* The Colossus of Ylourgne
* The Holiness of Azédarac
* The Enchantress of Sylaire
In all three of those stories, one of the major characters makes a very serious decision, even if it's just the decision to oppose a powerful necromancer. In particular, the hero in The Enchantress of Sylaire and the enchantress in The Holiness of Azédarac make interestingly ignoble decisions...
Now, for sheer color, I have to recommend these stories:
* The Beast of Averoigne
* Mother of Toads
* The Maker of Gargoyles
Those stories veer more into horror, but provide excellent color. And something about The Maker of Gargoyles says Sorcerer to me.
On 8/27/2004 at 8:58pm, xiombarg wrote:
RE: Clark Ashton Smith
Old_Scratch wrote: Lastly, one story has the epitome of what I would call a Kicker: "The Death of Illalotha" which has a perfect example of the "choice" that you say is absent: a King, dependent upon his jealous and cruel wife returns home to find his ex-lover dead. As he leans over to pay his respects to her, the deceased lover whispers "Meet me in the crpyts at midnight" in hi ear. Seconds later, his queen-wife demands he meet her in chambers at midnight.
This is a good point, but that's really the only example I can think of.
Yes, the two thief stories are very good examples of S&S "capers", but they still don't have a lot of character development.
I'm not saying they're not great stories. I devoured them with alacrity. I'm talking strictly about their usefulness as inspiration for a game like Sorcerer. I agree they make good palette-cleansers from modern fantasy.
On 8/29/2004 at 9:04pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: Clark Ashton Smith
xiombarg wrote:
Yes, the two thief stories are very good examples of S&S "capers", but they still don't have a lot of character development.
I'm not saying they're not great stories. I devoured them with alacrity. I'm talking strictly about their usefulness as inspiration for a game like Sorcerer. I agree they make good palette-cleansers from modern fantasy.
To be honest, in the case of Sorcerer & Sword, we're not looking for literature that emulates the goal of Sorcerer, we're looking for source material to inspire Sorcerer. What you're looking for in these stories is absent, yet its what I think Sorcerer brings to the table: dilemmas and moral choice. This sort of thing seems to be missing from a good chunk of the early fantasy writings. I think that was the appeal of much of the early stuff: these characters in the story were not caught up in tough thorny moral decisions, they're were living life to the fullest, free and unconstrained by moral choices. Consider Conan: very often, his heavy moral choice usually comes down to: the woman or the gold. We know which one he's going to choose. I wouldn't count on any of the characters from the Dying Earth of Fafhrd and Grey Mouser to make weighty decisions either...
Sorcerer on the other hand has a different agenda, rather than passively entertaining the reader with the wonders and adventures that these active characters take, Sorcerer encourages the participants to put their own agendas front and center.
So I guess what I'm arguing is that what you're looking for is absent from a great deal of the literature, or at least the early pre-60's stuff. What that has to offer is not the grappling with dilemmas that Sorcerer offers us, but a sense of feel for where these sort of escapades could take place.
As for another morally challenging CAS story, I'd recommend "The Ghoul". Again, a great kicker drives "The Death of Illalotha".
For dealing with Demons and the problems that they can pose to Sorcerers, I'd recommend "The Last Incantation" which is the Citizen Kane of CAS's stories. "The Coming of the White Worm" is another great demon-human story about the relationship between the two: this one with a very powerful demon. "The Seven Geas" is a more comedic version where one falls afoul of Sorcerers and Demons and their ilk. "Xeethra" is another of these tales where a human falls afoul of diabolic powers. Again, "The Ghoul" fits well under this description.
As for heist and caper stories, besides the "Thirty-Seven Girdles" and "The Tale of Satampra Zeiros", there's "The Charnel God" which has another great kicker: Your lover, prone to narcolepsy, has fallen asleep and is believed dead, has been seized and will be fed to a god this night...", as well as the ill-fated rescuers of "The Maze of Maal Dweb". "The Black Abbot of Puthuum" isn't quite a caper story, but it has a pair of stalward warriors in it, a rarity in CAS in my experience. "The Tomb Spawn", IIRC, also has a pair of protagonists getting themselves into trouble.
My favorite stuff though is the high powered sorcery. I earlier mentioned "The Coming of the White Worm", "The Last Incantation", "The Empire of the Necromancers" (easily one of my favorites!), "The Death of Malygris", but I should have noted "Dark Eidolon" which is quite good as well. The Xiccarph stories, like "The Flower Women" and "The Maze of..." are quite good too, showing the power of a powerful sorcerer.
As for the Averoigne stuff, I liked the creepiness of "A Rendevous in Averoigne", "The Colossus..." (even though it didn't feel much like an Averoigne story), "The Beast of Averoigne",
I thought that all of these stories were great contributions to the background reading of Sorcerer & Sword. While they didn't have a lot of the ethical quandaries of later work, I've found very few of this early writing to address this much. That said, I'd recommend this stuff before anything else I can think of.
That aside, when I did read the high-powered Sorcery stuff of CAS, I was wondering how to pull of stuff like you see in "Dark Eidolon" or "The Empire of the Necromancers". It seems like the Sorcerer rules would have to use a bit of tweaking or it would require extensive use of "Tokens" and the like.
Oh! And before I finish - I think CAS has a lot of applicability to Sorcerer. A considerable portion of his writings were on wierd science and Cthulhu-esque sorcery, and stories like "The Treader of the Dust", "The Return of the Sorcerer", "The Hunters from Beyond", and "Genius Loci" are all good starts to this portion of CAS's writing.