How do I begin? - First; Thanks for your pointers to my last misplaced post, (Which is the reason I'm posting here instead?).

SMS Roleplay Concepts.
Firstly, I'd like to assume that the average person reading this is, at least, in some way familiar with Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone's numerous novels in the C-Y-O-A, (Choose Your Own Adventure), series back in the mid eighties. For those that aren't, the basic principle is; Read storyline, choose option, read more storyline, choose option based on storyline.
Also included in the games are stat variables to randomize play. Most of the game's focus is on Global Variable change as opposed to character change, this way the world as everybody see's it changes rather than multiples of the same reality...

My Games...
I've been a hobby designer for over twenty years... On one game...
Over the past year however I've slowed the process on that particular game and concentrated on building new ones. (I currently have twenty-five games in various states between beta & "commercially" ready).

Costs.
Somebody posted a question regarding costs as obviously sms messages are not free, (unless written into your tariff?), well, I've been looking into this as I wish to start in business as a sms games company... Not so good.
The cheapest I can effectively run for is £30 per player per month!!
But this way I can at least re-imburse the player at least 50% of his/her sms costs...? - (With more players the percentage repaid would naturally increase).

Any questions, just ask... Thanks, KorbanDream.

Er. So, is this SMS game a MMORPG played with text messages, or?

I'm not yet clear on how it works, from your explanation.

JamesSterrett wrote: Er. So, is this SMS game a MMORPG played with text messages, or?

I'm not yet clear on how it works, from your explanation.

Hello,

KorbanDream, it might help if you assumed that very few of us, if any, have any idea at all about what you're talking about. But I at least, and I'm sure lots of others, want to learn. However, you're going to have to explain it as if we were rather slow, and as if we had a language barrier.

First of all, I have no idea what "SMS" stands for. Furthermore, I have no idea what the person engaged in this sort of activity even looks like - is he or she using a cell phone? A computer screen? A palm pilot? Or nothing?

Really, I'm that ignorant. You'll have to start way at the beginning.

Second, is this activity actually occurring in the world? People do this? When did it start, and how many people seem to be involved in your immediate experience? Or is this game something that you are developing, or in fact inventing?

Third, what sort of "role-playing" are we talking about? From your description, it sounds as if it's similar to computer RPGs with multiple users or maybe MUDs. But I could be very wrong about that, especially since I barely understand the differences among the current computer-interface RPGs anyway.

So help me out. Pretend I'm friendly, interested, but (sadly) not very bright or world-wise.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: First of all, I have no idea what "SMS" stands for. Furthermore, I have no idea what the person engaged in this sort of activity even looks like - is he or she using a cell phone? A computer screen? A palm pilot? Or nothing?

First: Merten is nearly spot on with his version of events. (Yes 160 Characters is DAMN small but makes for very defining storylines and no space for tangents which are unneccessary (always a bonus?).
You can buy sms, (sms is Cellphone Paging to all those the other side of the Atlantic Ocean :-) ), servers for a few hundred sterling which automate the tasks by "Reading" the incoming message body, ie; 'Go West' would generate a send message response (Whoops Tangent?)...

Second: Well the concept is actually a third generation version of play by mail, (Snail mail), e-mail etc... I guess you would call it "Re-inventing an old concept?". WAP & sms rpg's do occur in the uk but they are more of the virtual pet variety than rpg's...?

Merten - I refuse to even look at WAP as even with GPRS connection an average scenario could end up costing £50? (@ £0.01p /Kb. Kb=About 1 page...?). (Thanks for your help btw).

Third: Um, difficult one this, I would probably have to say that I have most sincerely cannibalized most forms of rpg on a what fits best method?
I've kinda crossed the boundry between true rpg, ie; D&D and pc based "Adventure rpg's" (Mainly to make the game fit evenly into the sms format).

Except for one game, Universe. This is a true exception.
I've built it from scratch and is what I call a Life Management Game.
You have a Character and you must keep him/her alive. I call it Life Management because of the available scope of what you can do and where you can go... 163'000'000 places to visit within the first map alone?
It's staged five thousand years from now and the map is the same as the name's game, a universe... All designed with the sms format in mind.

Also to answer your second question; Is anyone doing this kind of thing now? - My answer is yes but not on this scale, companies will not employ people to become "Human Servers" so, I want to set up my own company in sms games and become the first "Human Server".

The difference I want to make to the mobile games industry is that by keeping the human element I can make the games more alive by factoring my own answer if the player's arguement is valid, ie; player wants to climb a wall that hasn't been scripted for in the game.
If the game's on a server, the player just would NOT be allowed but with the human element, I can say that the height of the wall is XX meters tall and so based on your endurance stat plus your strength stat etc, etc, etc...
(It's stops missed opportunities to broaden the game as well)...

I hope this helps but just ask if it doesn't...? - KorbanDream.

O.K., I'm going to make a stab at deciphering this.

I have a device, maybe a cell phone with an LCD text screen, maybe one of those pager messaging gadgets that send and receive text messages only. I want to play a game on it. Among my options are games that I can in essence play remotely.

Currently such games exist (I'm accepting this as what you meant) on a limited basis, in which I am sending messages to a computer which is analyzing my input and sending a response. It's thus a text-based computer RPG akin to those old Commodore interactive text games, except that I'm dealing with a remote computer via a hand-held communications device. More generally, it's a computer role playing game. The computer describes a situation and I offer an action, and it describes how my action alters the situation.

If we assume (as I believe) that such computer role playing games originally developed to emulate real role playing games, making it possible to play without the group, what you're trying to do is reverse that development but keep the technological link in the middle, such that when someone sends a text message they'll get not a computer but a person who can assess their input and provide a change in situation that's appropriate to that input. The computer would still be present as something of a referee's aid, recording current situation and past actions so that the referee can assess the response, but the game would be played between the various individual players and the live referee.

I'm also guessing that there would be no interaction between various messaging clients; each would interact with the referee as if he were the only player in the designed world.

It thus shares many features with Internet Play by Post (forum game) play or Play by E-mail play, in which the character player writes his move and the referee responds with his move. The differences would be, primarily:

• All play would be one-on-one; the actions of other players would never impact this game.• The message system allows the player to continue the game at any time in any place, and so demands that the referee be available constantly to respond, rather than responding when he has the time.• The involvement of the computer would enable much of play to be automated, including much of setting and situation along with standard responses to standard actions within it, which reduces the burden on the referee to handling those messages that are flagged as outside the computer's program.• The computer involvement also makes it possible to rotate referees rather randomly (relative to the player), as the world and most of the situations are already present in the computer, so the referee's primary (possibly only) function is to adjudicate declared actions which are outside the computer's parameters; thus no individual referee needs to fully understand the continuity of play, as long as the system is able to provide easy access to anything the player has done before that might be relevant (e.g., the player trying to "climb the wall" has in the past "scaled a cliff" and "shimmied up a tree"; can the system recognize that this is relevant information for the referee in adjudicating whether "climb the wall" is possible?).


Have I got it?

--M. J. Young

Spot on...! - But for one small detail.

M. J. Young wrote: I'm also guessing that there would be no interaction between various messaging clients; each would interact with the referee as if he were the only player in the designed world.
--M. J. Young

One minor point for the Americans trying to picture what on Earth this looks like: There are two ways to get an SMS message out into the world,

1. From an ISDN of GSM phone, or
2. Using SMS server software on a computer.

Case 1 would be the common one. Here you are typing in the text of the message using your phone's keypad. In other words, 887733323 spells URDEAD. As the example indicates, there's a premium on abbreviations in this medium :-)

On most phones, the display will show the currently selected letters as you type. So, the example above, the first few displays would read

t
u
up
ur
urd

etc...

The system is wildly popular among teenagers as it's a lot cheaper than an actual voice call (voice calls using GSM are always long distance and at a steeper rate than "regular" phone long distance calls). I'm putting regular in quotes because in most of Europe GSM has a market penetration deep in the 90% and quite a number of people are actually dropping their "regular" phone in favor of the GSM.

S "77-777-444-1-444-66-1-999-666-88-77-1-8-44-88-6-22" R
--

Before you read the rest of my post, I'll warn you - I am extremely sceptical about this. I will tell you why - because I cannot see any advantage to this type of play to either you or the users at the other end that isn't outweighed by the difficulties.

However, that might be due to some misconceptions on my end, which I'll try to clear up by asking some questions, if that's ok by you.

1.) How many players would there be?
2.) Would play be at scheduled times, or 24hrs?
3.) Would play be sequential or simultaneous?
4.) Does the software/hardware include a database?

(You mention not using a computer at all, but a mobile phone, a palm and a laptop for archiving. I find that extremely unclear, but will assume you mean that there is no active computer processing input between you and player (thus allowing a laptop for archiving - but archiving what? will you need to type stuff out?). Note: in my view, a palm is also a computer - so I'm not sure what it would add, compared to the mobile phone).

5.) What kind of messages would you send? Could you give a short example of play, chopped up in 160-character messages?
6.) How are you going to keep 163'000'000 places on the first map alone in mind, while 'I want every element to be human driven otherwise it's just another server game?'

I'll start with those questions. I have more, but maybe many of them will be answered with these first 6.

I'm with Tobias on the skeptical but unclear end of things.

On the other hand, I think it's an exciting opportunity for a game that sounds much more automated than what I think is being discussed and moderated (for constant expansion of the engine and world) by human beings. And I bet there's a serious profit potential.

I'm imagining a bunch of places in a MUD-like game where a bunch of activities can be performed by characters and there's also a system for handling unknown actions. That system shunts the request to the queue for the current set of referee-admin-programmer types who will make a decision about the action, then potentially improve the game to include that kind of action by plugging the text of the request into the pre-architected tools.

I'm also psyched about the idea of extending this kind of game with a VXML gateway to avoid the monsterous typing on a phone hassle and just running the game through voice telephony channels, or at least having that as an option. I used to have an extension at Tellme.com that would read MSRP (and some other data) for any LEGO set back to you if you spoke the set's number (or typed it on the keypad) into the system. It was a simple DB lookup program to help make buying decisions while shopping clearance aisles, but the opportunity for very sophisticated stuff is there.

Chris

Tobias wrote:
1.) How many players would there be?
2.) Would play be at scheduled times, or 24hrs?
3.) Would play be sequential or simultaneous?
4.) Does the software/hardware include a database?

I'm unclear too.

Are you gonna respond to 500 people txt msging you at once by manually typing replies to them?

Are the response menus stored somewhere (on your palm?)

I'm clearly missing something here.
-Marco

Marco wrote: Are you gonna respond to 500 people txt msging you at once by manually typing replies to them?

Are the response menus stored somewhere (on your palm?)
-Marco

KorbanDream wrote: 500 people sending a text message at once to an ordinary phone would if not kill the server, kill my phone, (RAM issues?), but the phone also has the same ability, (inbox, file & folder management and memory card expansion), with two to four hours between my sending schedule and ninety percent of all messages just being a matter of cut and paste, the remaining ten percent being 'Option Other...?' as I call it, I've worked out I can handle approx 200 per hour!

The idea of a person providing template menu responses to 200 player requests per hour seems like a missapplicaiton of effort. Why not use a server?

-Marco

Alright, so I'd pay .10 cents to basically say "Go West" until I knew what was out in that direction and could say "Go to the Fuzzlebush" instead of spending a couple bucks just looking randomly around and trying to figure out what to do. Hrm...sorry, I think I'd pass without something to keep me engaged and interested each step of the way, as there is in a Choose Your Own Adventure book.

And really...160 characters of text? That doesn't sound vaguely engaging, to me. How about you run us all through an example of play with three or four players -- a real, live, exactly as it was happening example, as though written exactly like a play-script, as exists in nearly every RPG manual known to man.

(You know the drill:
EXAMPLE OF PLAY
Bob: I climb the wall.
GM: Roll d10 + Strength.
Bob: 15.
GM: You easily clamber over the wall. You are now in the garden.)

Now, no commentary on "how that isn't like my game will play at all" -- I'm not interested, it's an example of the format I'd like to see in your response, not a supposition of the content of the response.

Thanks.

Morning All! - (Don't you guys ever sleep?).

Marco wrote: The idea of a person providing template menu responses to 200 player requests per hour seems like a missapplicaiton of effort. Why not use a server?
-Marco

Rough example of someone going to a trade counter from docking...

========================
Welcome to EDU019.
Please be advised a visitors pass
is valid for 96 hours.
Access is granted to:
01: Enrollment.
02: PZ Customs.
03: Commercial Deck 01.

================
(Player Chooses 03).
================

Commercial Deck 01.
Where would you like to go?
01: Katenya.
02: Traidcom Portal.
03: Trade Counter.
04: Passager Lounge.
05: Other...?

==========================
(Player Chooses 03: Trade Counter)
==========================

Welcome says the merchant offering
you a cargo manalog. On screen,
the manalog offers you the following:
01: Buy Cargo.
02: Sell Cargo.
03: Salvage Trade.

=====================
You want me to continue...?
=====================

This is the best available example I can think of without going into the game's world detail and explaining every element?
The terms used would be explained within the Basepack (Character management pack), issued to all new members...

Hope this clears any misconceptions.

Greyorm.
Simultaneous play would be a repeat of the above per player. Any interaction between players would come over as storyline, (For example; how do you know the merchant above isn't played by a human and not just an npc...?), this way I get npc's with live emotional content behind them. Direct interaction between two human players occurs through the storyline and the only giveaway as to wether it's a human or npc is if they're standing next to you, playing with their mobile...?!

Hi KorbanDream,

Brief examination through Google suggests there are many free SMS server solutions of one sort or another (I readily accept that they may not meet your needs for one reason or another--one seems to send only "30 messages at a time"--but that hardly seems a limiting factor for you). Using them would require some programming skill (although it doesn't look seriously difficult to me--I found one with a Java API).

I would then make the input and output automatic, plug the computer into a wall and be "up" 24 hours.

I understand if you lack the programming skills--but if you felt this was going to pay enough to get you on your palm during the majority of the day, I think it's safe to say you could hire someone and have them create a tool for you to inter templates--as well as an interface to allow human, custom, interaction when you are awake/you feel like it.

-Marco

Marco wrote:
I would then make the input and output automatic, plug the computer into a wall and be "up" 24 hours.

KorbanDream wrote:

Marco wrote:
I would then make the input and output automatic, plug the computer into a wall and be "up" 24 hours.

Hi. The problem I have with servers is that the game HAS to be structured around server entry and not server entry based on gameplay.

An example of this is that nearly every location has a trade counter, (sometimes more than one?), true I could use the game location addresses to log the players location and then have all template links running parallel but then every location would end up looking the same (and boring the heck out of Greyorm, hehe!). ie; option two is the same type of location at address 1, 5, 500, 10'000 etc...? - All leading to say the intro message at the trade counter?

Ahem. Yeah I wrote that under the lack of influence of Caffeine? - Sorry?

What I meant was that most server based games only have a three way option response like left, right and back or something similar.
A virtual pet game has a very limited set of defined options like feed, clean, heal etc. But in an rpg, tangents tend to happen more and there's very rarely ever anything that's that straight forward agreed?

Running all the pre-written messages parallel to each other. So that wether you're in Epsilon or Ganymede, Trade Port or Sino it makes no difference in the content of the message. If you enter a trade counter you get the same message accross the map as an intro to the trade counter.

Like I said, it makes it damn boring and very sub-standard to what the game actually is.

I could just make a set of bog standard messages that are basically nothing more than "you are here" & "Your options are" and have mini-adventures instead of full blown scenarios and whack it all on a server and have done with it BUT...

(Once on a server the idea of tangents and element x could become quite hard to implement on a changed daily basis as well?)...

I've been addicted to the idea that rpg's are NOT just a set of lists and tables and a fairly half-hearted storyline since I first played Cyberpunk in the 80's. At their heart contains a dedicated chaos theory with random tangents, twists, turns and the unexpected all designed by their creator to encourage imagination and inspiration.
Therefore, I am prepared to work hard to add element x to my games to give them that extra touch of realism. Some may argue I'm going over the line a bit with this stubborness and that I should just throw it on a server and make money, (Namely my partner?), but the enjoyment of others is the reason why I wanna do it live!

Well, I still don't get it. I mean, I see no reason that each area couldn't be specially described, have it's on menus, and dynamically change them during the game based on input from other players, a game-master superuser, and random events.

I'm guessing there's still stuff I don't understand.

I mean, have you ever played Infocom games? I realize they don't have menus--but everything in there is different and unique to that location.

-Marco

Hi KorbanDream,

I've been lurking his thread for a while, trying to get my head around how this project would work in practice.

I'm thinking of three possible models, please feel free to tell me I've missed the point by limiting what you are trying to achieve to this list:

1) The C-Y-O-A model - you set a starting location (and quest?) for the player, and give them a description of their situation. They then have a fixed number of options (1 - Fight Orc. 2 - Negotiate with Orc. 3 - Flee to location X. 4 - Cast a spell.) They choose an option, this triggers the next 'location' which is sent to them. Just like a Fighting Fantasy gamebook, except you could have some standard commands ('rest', 'drink potion') that could be used in addition to selecting a menu option.

The main advantage of this model is that you could run this from a server without human moderation. I believe that a game of this type was attempted way back, using the Fighting Fantasy licence, but using standard telephones and a 'call minding' system which spoke the locations to you.

The main disadvantage is lack of player choice - it's not an RPG, it's an electronic game book.

2) Human moderated, player uses SMS to send each action they will take. ('I go to the bazaar and buy a new sword', 'I try to climb the wall and enter the palace through a window.'

Main advantage here is the much greater choice the player has.

There are two disadvantages here and IMO they are both 'dealbreakers'. One is that you need to moderate every single move the player makes. The second is that the cost to the player would be obscene.

3) The 'play by mail' option. The player submits a 'turn' by SMS, this would include multiple actions and much broader plans. (I scout the goblin camp, attempting to kill any guards using my bow. I then ride into the middle of the camp, setting the tents on fire and rescuing the princess in the confusion. If I am wounded heavily, I will flee.

You moderate this and send a response based on your knowledge of the situation and the character's abilities.

A bit like the PBM game Saturnalia (and many others, I'm sure.)

The advantage is that you can cover much more ground in one SMS exchange. You lose a bit of character freedom, but not much.

One disadvantage is, as before, you have to moderate the turns and each turn will take longer for you to process (meaning more work and less profit for you!)

The much bigger disadvantage is that Play by Mail and Play by Email games already do this sort of thing much better and have a much longer heritage.

So although SMS is a new medium for roleplaying, I'm not sure that there is anything in the actual design of your game that is new, and hasn't already been done better in another medum.

So far, the only real benefit I can see is revenue - in England people will spend a remarkable amount of their money on SMS messaging and download services. I am assuming that in order for this money to come your way, you wil actually have to rent one of the 'premium' SMS numbers, and will need to set your own tariff in order to recoup this money. Let's say that this is a modest 25p.

The C-Y-O-A model becomes instantly unviable at this point. It would cost several pounds to finish even the most basic adventure, and for that amount of money you would be better off selling a gamebook as a downloadable program (Have you considered this, by the way?)

This really leave PBM as the only viable option. However, I'm not sure how large a market you could attract, as PBM isn't a mass-market activity, although you could raise the fees above 25p and still remain competitive.

Hope the above is useful without being too harsh. I'd be happy to discuss this with you further, either through this post or by PM.

Regards,

Doug

I'm intrigued by the project, but, like Doug, I'm somewhat unconvinced about the potential of it logistically.

What concerns me a little more, however, is not the process of playing the game, but what's going to be done in the process of playing. Some games function well with minimal information transmission - chess is a classic example, but it's also got quite a quantity of information storage, in the form of the board, and a record of past actions.

How you address this is just one of my concerns - the second is what meeting these challenges, on your side, or on the players' side, is all in aid of. You could run the game as a set of look-up tables - leaving description of locations and events to a pamphlet or something that you send out to competitors, but then you're talking about a CYOA again, and I can see that that's not what you're after. So you're after the flexibility of response that writing each one will give, and all I can say is that it'll be a) more work than you imagine, however much work you imagine, and b) almost impossible to regulate - you have an advantage in that the maximum size of a player submission is regulated - no tremendously convoluted plans to wrap your head around, but also no real ability to go completely into depth. Unless there's a shared information space ("You see a TERM", etc.) you're going to need to put things into context, and that's context you won't have room for because of the medium.

If it's going to work, it's going to have to be small, and compact, which seems to me to complicate the issue of how you'll make it work as something where players have a wealth of options.

Ignoring the business of how it'll work, my main question is this:

What are players' characters expected to be doing? You seem to be focusing at the moment on how you'll turn what a player says into what a players' character does within the gameworld, which is a vital part of system, but, well, where's the rest of it? What you're concentrating on at the moment is handled in most table-top games by talking, and that's not the whole of a thing, is it?

Morning All!

Doug Ruff.
Hi! - I'm afraid to tell you but... I belive it's a corruption of all three models you describe. I've tried placing it in a single category but it just won't have it. See If you can define it any better, here's the main elements...
(Try to ignore the sms side as I only started transfering it to sms about a year and a half ago...).

1 - Open ended character management. Control your character as though he/she was actually alive, monitoring when he/she need's to eat, sleep and in some cases, breathe? - (Nothing new to rpg's).

2 - Stat based play. Over the years, (and more recently due to sms restrictions), I've shrunk everything I can into a stat. The character has 15, a craft has 21, a firearm has 6 etc... Also the reason I invented a BasePack for it (which really is nothing more than a twenty-six A5 page booklet full of inventory control and stat management?).

3 - Total interaction - Nothing really different from any other game I suppose?

4 - Twin gameplay. A scenario based game and a lifeplay. This is where you just exist, earn cash, make a living etc. The way you enter a scenario is through this medium, (As in you stumble upon it ie; listening to someone in a bar or...).

I've seen it working. and it works, very well as a 'hobby' with a group of friends but for the game to 'grow' it needs a larger audience, therefore I need to go commercial. My original plan was to have a membership scheme where members get a rebate on their messages. But by having a membership system I can only run with so many members per month which means I need to charge around the £30 marker, (£1.00 per day). The good news is that I can easily reimburse the message costs if someone is prepared to actually pay the membership?
(BTW; the reimbursement is based on 4 sms per day, 112 per month or £11.20 @ 0.10p per sms) - I'm really only giving them back their own money but ?

Incidently, I'd love to discuss ANY approach to an alternative medium... As I've been calling this an rpg for years but I've always felt that it's not really an rpg, I mean just because a game has character management, stats and a voiceover doesn't automatically make it an rpg right?


erithromycin. -(Hmm?).
The main reason I invented this was as an aid for kids to learn how to budget, (money management), their pocket money. I'd say at least fourty percent of the game's smaller scenario's involve needing a larger craft upgrade when they clearly don't have the cash, leaving the question how do I earn enough? - Money management.
The main go here, do this side of the game is entirely up to them.
The best way to describe it is soul hopping, you place your soul in the character's body and imagine you're there right? (as with every rpg).
I've set the ground work, I've also set triggers throughout the entire map.
These triggers are what set scenario's in motion, ie; Messiah 415a (Pirate faction), place an Envocon, (Environmental Construction) under embargo, player character has the choice to either go kick butt or ignore it as a not my problem? - You are just free to roam but with a set of added limitiations, much like the real world.

Marco.
Could you point me in the direction of some of those free servers please as I've been trawling the web for the past xx months trying to find one that follows OE's message rules and haven't found one...
(Thanks in advance)...


Hope that helps a little...?

Thank you for your answers, Korban. I am still skeptical, but it's wonderful to see you're trying to be constructive and get this things to work. So would I actually, which is why I'm critical.

Doug's comments (and those of others) make a lot of sense to me. Your example has shown me you can have a somewhat engaging dialogue with 160 characters (let's say I was pleasently surprised - it ain't shakespeare, but it doesn't need to be), but that means that some of the forms (like this one:)

3) The 'play by mail' option. The player submits a 'turn' by SMS, this would include multiple actions and much broader plans. (I scout the goblin camp, attempting to kill any guards using my bow. I then ride into the middle of the camp, setting the tents on fire and rescuing the princess in the confusion. If I am wounded heavily, I will flee.

Tobias.
Your estimation is actually quite spot on!
In fact the only difference between what's in my Cashflow Forecast and what you said was to include an external payment system. Instead of having any revenues generated from the sms, have an additional cost of membership and have the sms costs repaid back to the players from that revenue... Merely a matter of playing with the figures at the end of the day but the revenue generated is actually more per message this way.

A flat rate of say £30 GBP is a more pleasing to 'the public' as quite often they know they're being stung when it comes to 35p per message BOTH ways! - Besides, If I opt for the membership scheme, I don't have to buy a gateway server and end up in 10's of thousands in debt before I even start on a single character...

The other reason for choosing the sms format was that in my mind it fit perfectly with the Labyrinth system.
(Labyrinth is an easter-egg hunt style prize system, ie; walk into a room and you are greeted with a " You have won a prize!" sms, merely a marketing gimmick but effective enough to increase the player base!).

Outgoing sms. - For anyone reading this, DON'T ever try to send a lot of sms before templating them first, it really hurts your wrist!
I used to have an old Nokia 9000 Communicator and it had a keyboard and file and folder management of sms'. I just replaced this with a standard mobile and a palm. The palm is what's going to hold the sms as the default program operates in more or less the same way...
(Yes cut n paste is the only feasible way but finding a database program that allows sms storage is starting to look bleak?)

As for the feeling of being lost, if you did then I would say that would by my fault as the "GM" (for want of a better title?), for not defining it clearly enough... The basics are described at the start of the game, (only three sms), as an intro, if you like, to your new character.

As it turns out, I think I've found the server I've been looking for. It should fit the requirements of all the games except for Universe which I think the only options for it are to bring it out live, turn it into a 3d game, (no chance?) or have a really, really large bonfire in my back yard...?

(I think I'm gonna go have a bath with a couple of razor blades after this...?) ;-/

Doug Ruff wrote: 1) The C-Y-O-A model - you set a starting location (and quest?) for the player, and give them a description of their situation. They then have a fixed number of options (1 - Fight Orc. 2 - Negotiate with Orc. 3 - Flee to location X. 4 - Cast a spell.) They choose an option, this triggers the next 'location' which is sent to them. Just like a Fighting Fantasy gamebook, except you could have some standard commands ('rest', 'drink potion') that could be used in addition to selecting a menu option.

The main advantage of this model is that you could run this from a server without human moderation. I believe that a game of this type was attempted way back, using the Fighting Fantasy licence, but using standard telephones and a 'call minding' system which spoke the locations to you.

The main disadvantage is lack of player choice - it's not an RPG, it's an electronic game book.

2) Human moderated, player uses SMS to send each action they will take. ('I go to the bazaar and buy a new sword', 'I try to climb the wall and enter the palace through a window.'

Now it starts to get fascinating.

What's in this book? (the basepack, neh?) 26 A5 pages is quite a lot of text, so is this where the 'background' is contained?

I think that Doug's idea of a limited set of actions with the option for a 'special' is certainly a good one - one thing that you might want to consider is formulating a 'language' of action for more basic things - "visit customs declare cargo - visit dockside bars enquire about contraband" and, as suggested, 'specials' for more complex stuff - "see what rumours I can start about the presence of an untapped ore asteroid in the belt near the station".

This notion of the game as one where the focus is on resource management is made even more interesting by the constraints of the medium of communication - in addition to money, time seems valuable - setting things up such that 'special' actions force you to take more time over something is one approach, but there are other questions, such as management of idle time - you're not always going to get responses in favourable windows, so you'll need a way to manage those.

Further to that, incorporating a trading element means that you could, should you so desire, actually run a sort of parallel commodities market, with updates arriving every morning - local demand and such like. Of course, by this point, you're basically running a text-based version of Elite, and, well, I'd play.

erithromycin wrote: Now it starts to get fascinating.

I think that Doug's idea of a limited set of actions with the option for a 'special' is certainly a good one - one thing that you might want to consider is formulating a 'language' of action for more basic things

...incorporating a trading element means that you could, should you so desire, actually run a sort of parallel commodities market, with updates arriving every morning - local demand and such like. Of course, by this point, you're basically running a text-based version of Elite, and, well, I'd play.

Hi there,

I'd like to step in and make a point about this thread.

It's not about whether anyone approves of this kind of game or whether anyone would play it. It's about receiving an explanation and understanding it.

I'm reading a lot of posts that concern "that won't work because." Folks, this guy says it can work. He may be wrong, he may be right, and the fact is that we don't know shit about what can or can't work, at this level. New technologies = new possibilities. He's not here to get our input about that.

Instead, we're here to learn what he's proposing.

I do have a question, though: KorbanDream, I asked earlier, are people actually playing this game, even as we speak? Is Universe up and running, or is it currently a set of designs and ideas that exist mainly on your hard drive?

I hope all of you can see that the answer to this question is significant.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: I do have a question, though: KorbanDream, I asked earlier, are people actually playing this game, even as we speak? Is Universe up and running, or is it currently a set of designs and ideas that exist mainly on your hard drive?

Ron - I can see where your question on existing play/players is significant.

As to my statements of approval/disapproval - I only make them so Korban knows where I am coming from. I wouldn't want the result to be anything similar 'but I incorporated all these cool changes, tons of hard work, spent hours explaining this to people - and still no-one will play it'.

I think I am here to try to learn something of his proposal. In fact, I do know (a bit of) shit about what can or cannot work, in this case. And I do think he's also here to get a bit of input on that - but that might just be me. At least, I hope my replies haven't hurt.

Oh, and Korban, we crossposted back there - thanks for that explanation.

edit: oh, and I really like the real-time element(s), trading, for example. It's a good way to keep players 'hooked', I guess. Korban, do you actually show more of the Global Values?

erithromycin wrote: Now it starts to get fascinating.

What's in this book? (the basepack, neh?) 26 A5 pages is quite a lot of text, so is this where the 'background' is contained?

KorbanDream wrote:
Incidently, I'd love to discuss ANY approach to an alternative medium... As I've been calling this an rpg for years but I've always felt that it's not really an rpg, I mean just because a game has character management, stats and a voiceover doesn't automatically make it an rpg right?

Different Medium - The only reason I said that was because this isn't a true roleplay game. You can't really sit round a table with a group of friends, your BasePack and your mobiles and still call it roleplay in the traditional sense...?

Saying that, I did get a report of seven people having regular get-togethers at each other's houses to plan a meet on Ganymede Three?



Incidently, maybe there's a question you could all answer: Synchronicity.

For a long time I've been arguing with myself over this. It basically comes down to three types of Sync.

1) - A universal timeline and everyone follow's one clock.
2) - A personal timeline that is only de-synced when you travel using Conflux, (great for time distortion scenarios, real P.I.T.A. when two people wanna meet?).
3) - Conflux travel still de-syncs the player but when out of Conflux, players revert back to a universal clock.

Theory 3 is my preferred type because it can at least explain why when people meet up one's late, (because they're still travelling to the destination...).

Any thought's on this...?

Ron - guilty as charged, I gave a critique where one wasn't needed.

Korban - Apologies for the above, I had no idea that the project was this far into development. Although SMS wouldn't be my preferred technology for a game like this, it's a remarkable achievement nonetheless.

I am now doubly intigued as to how you actually manage to deliver this. As you have had players in the past, I'm hoping it wouldn't be a breach of your commercial confidence to ask you to post an example of an actual play submission and your response?

If you could also describe how you got from one to the other, that would be great - I'm not asking for details of the inner workings of your system, just an overview of the 'steps' taken in between.

Regards,

Doug

Doug Ruff wrote: Korban - Apologies for the above, I had no idea that the project was this far into development. Although SMS wouldn't be my preferred technology for a game like this, it's a remarkable achievement nonetheless.

Doug Ruff wrote: I'm hoping it wouldn't be a breach of your commercial confidence to ask you to post an example of an actual play submission and your response?

Doug Ruff wrote:
If you could also describe how you got from one to the other, that would be great - I'm not asking for details of the inner workings of your system, just an overview of the 'steps' taken in between.

Regrets, I can't play right now - I have a real tough week at work and several other personal projects to juggle.

For now, I would like to see an example of an SMS'turn' that could have been sent in game (doesn't have to be an actual message, just one that could have been sent) and a description of how this was 'handled' and turned into an SMS response back to the player.

For example: Player sends "I go west to the bazaar and sell my loot. I buy X, Y and Z and ask for any jobs transporting cargo. I take the best paying legal offer and head out. I will not start a conflict en route but will defend myself if attacked."

(I know this is too long for a real post, it's just an example.)

Would this be avalid post, or would the player have to be more specific? How would the GM (you) resolve actions, make changes to the gameworld, and reply to the player with the results of the actions?

Regards,

Doug

PS If it would be possible to play a few turns by Instant Messenger over the net, I could be interested in this, but it would have to be next week. Unless someone else is interested and wants to take up the challenge?

Doug Ruff wrote: How would the GM (you) resolve actions, make changes to the gameworld, and reply to the player with the results of the actions?

Okay, I think I've got a picture of how this is meant to be working. I didn't want to come across as harshing* on you, I was just intensely curious about the logistics of running this and the requirements of play.

I've done 'wishlist' downtime stuff before, and like every single British person on the internet between the ages of 35 and 20 have played Fighting Fantasy books or those of that ilk, and I was curious about which your SMS roleplay would sit closer to.

From what I've seen, it's a little closer to the latter, and, ignoring all technology issues, I've a question about time, and immediacy - the great thing about CYOA is that you got results as soon as you turned a page. In the example you gave, that's five turns, isn't it?

I think, since this is theory, that you're pushing the envelope as regards handling time - were I to play this I'd want the result of 1/4 of the actions that I could take in a day of gaming to be slightly more than walking down a corridor.

What I think I'm getting at is that I'm not sure that this level of granularity of action/choice in a situation is anything other than disadvantageous given the spacing of response.

I do not doubt your ability to accomplish the task that you have set yourself here in making the game happen - what I am worried about is how much fun it will be, or indeed, how willing people will be to balance attention and effort for what may emerge as relatively trivial actions.

In which case it seems that I'm encouraging broader strokes - think fast and loose and swashbuckling instead of the minutiae of valves and stock prices.

[* chosen in part for the way it makes my inner editor quail]

KorbanDream,

Hi, new to posting here but not new to cell and sms. Spent three years working on visual messaging program with two partnered companies.

Want to chime in on your idea and see if it helps.

First. Neat idea.

Second. There are some great mobile JAVA apps out there now, but none with the potential depth this could have.

Third. From doing tests that quickly went into the thousands of users, you might not be able to handle the msg flow unless (a) use used an automated server for parts of it or (b) you instill a gamemaster app where one person of a particular group of friends could become the "human" side of the gamemaster equation. So that all my friends use me as the gamemaster. Your server could still keep track of buys, sells, where people are at, etc. (Just a thought.)

Fourth. Like your simple keypad "click I go there" model. As one who has watched countless testers handle all models of cell phones, people are short on time, impatient, and will only dig deep if there is a reward for their actions. SMS is usually done enroute to someplace, or when a person has a few minutes free. So the into and out of the game must be quick and easy...and I can pick up where I left off...and I'm not penalized for my phone cutting out or taking a call, or my battery dies, etc. (These are just normal things that testers and real life users have to deal with.)

Fifth. Players must become emotionally engaged with their character, or their world in some manner, unless this is meant to be a tactical resource management game. They need a reason to care. Not knowing what cool features you've added over the twenty-plus years you've worked on the game, I can't tell if you've done this. This can come from the other players in the same group, or from pivotal villains within your world that players love to hate, or person tragedies, etc. Would love elaboration on this.

Sixth. As to your money question. If you're serious about this (and twenty years says you are) you need to partner with someone in the industry. DOCOMO is the doorway in Japan you need to get into, or one of the European carriers, where there is population density and a culture who regularly pay for this sms product. In the US, sms and video and other are all still relatively small. Some use SMS, but it's mostly used for "I'm late", "Pick this up.", "Wanna hang?" or "Meet me at...". Americans have been spoiled by the rich internet, gameboy, Xbox landscape, so you play as a text game would need to be overseas.

Must go charge my own phone up:) Good luck!!!
Gary

Morning All! (Yawn?).

GaryTP wrote: From doing tests that quickly went into the thousands of users, you might not be able to handle the msg flow unless (a) use used an automated server for parts of it or (b) you instill a gamemaster app where one person of a particular group of friends could become the "human" side of the gamemaster equation. So that all my friends use me as the gamemaster. Your server could still keep track of buys, sells, where people are at, etc. (Just a thought.)

GaryTP wrote: So the into and out of the game must be quick and easy...and I can pick up where I left off...and I'm not penalized for my phone cutting out or taking a call, or my battery dies, etc. (These are just normal things that testers and real life users have to deal with).

GaryTP wrote: Players must become emotionally engaged with their character, or their world in some manner, unless this is meant to be a tactical resource management game. They need a reason to care. Not knowing what cool features you've added over the twenty-plus years you've worked on the game, I can't tell if you've done this. This can come from the other players in the same group, or from pivotal villains within your world that players love to hate, or person tragedies, etc. Would love elaboration on this.

GaryTP wrote: As to your money question. If you're serious about this (and twenty years says you are) you need to partner with someone in the industry. DOCOMO is the doorway in Japan you need to get into, or one of the European carriers, where there is population density and a culture who regularly pay for this sms product. In the US, sms and video and other are all still relatively small. Some use SMS, but it's mostly used for "I'm late", "Pick this up.", "Wanna hang?" or "Meet me at...". Americans have been spoiled by the rich internet, gameboy, Xbox landscape, so you play as a text game would need to be overseas.

(Sorry if I'm thread hogging)...

erithromycin wrote:
In which case it seems that I'm encouraging broader strokes - think fast and loose and swashbuckling instead of the minutiae of valves and stock prices.

Hi there,

I must say this actually sounds like an incredably cool idea, however I think there's two distinct threads that seem to be going on here so I'd propose spawning off one of them to here:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?p=134975

This thread is about the actual technological implimentation of the game as opposed to what this thread is mainly about, which is explaining the concept of the game.

This new thread is kinda' of topic for here so if you you reckon it's something that should be discussed somewhere else Ron, just say. Odly it might be better in the Publishing forum.

Hi MW,

Nice split! Let's keep this thread focused on the "what is it" topic, folks.

Best,
Ron

Hello All...

Ron Edwards wrote: Let's keep this thread focused on the "what is it" topic, folks.

Rather than discussing the technological aspects of play, which is what mindwanders started that whole thread for, I think Ron is suggesting that we concentrate on the way in which the game is played -

The content of the communication, if you understand me, rather than the means of its conveyance and response. That is to say, to illustrate completely - what the players will do, and what will happen in response, rather than how the players will contact you the GM and how you will respond to them.

So, to that end, thank you for answering my question about 'broad strokes' - I think I wasn't clear enough on this one - what I meant was that in this kind of game where communication is limited, the results must either be _exact_ (Knight to Queen's Rook 3, for example), or not in too much detail - "you buy the cargo of refinable ore for c150" rather than "after three hours of tense negotiations you eventually persuade the mining cartel to allow you access to the unprocessed leavings from the asteroid wher there's been a recent strike" - you're limited by the 160 character thing.

Now, your talk of moving within timeframes - what? I'm somewhat surprised by that - if you're allowing people to change their timescales as much as they want (moving from dockside to starside to, I don't know, combat?) to focus on things, that's one goal, but how are you going to keep track of 100+ different sets of timescales? Isn't the point that there's going to be interaction between them?

Again, in the interests of clarity, this thread is predicated on the assumption (which I think is a reasonable one) that this game will work technologically and logistically - This means that we have a game which works, as far as I can tell, like this:

1. Players have a limited number (four) of 'actions' a day.

2. An 'action' is written within an SMS text message [160 characters]

3. Each 'action' generates a response, also an SMS, which provides a series of options for the player.

4. Players have the option for an Action 'other' which allows them to do things that are not listed in the response. The number of 'other' actions may be limited (and is, at the moment, it seems, to one per day?)

5. Players' characters are in a shared space - their actions can influence each other.

6. The scope and scale of actions can be changed - this is context sensitive - an action (or turn?) represents a set value of time in the real-world, but can represent different scales of times within the game.

7. The game world is detailed, with a variety of political factions, a complex trading system, the threat/presence of large organised military conflict, and is spread over a vast number of locations.

Now, with the assumption that the 7 components of the game are identified correctly, there seem to me to be a couple of issues -

To wit, that 5, 6, and 7 seem to be very much constrained by 1 and 2, that 6 and 5 seem to make it difficult to track interaction over larger events, and that 4 is necessarily limited by 2.

What we're dealing with here, I think, is gaming within constraints - I'm halfway certain that this has been discussed before: roleplaying games played by hikers using the secondhand of a watch as a randomiser; 10 minute games*; the archetypal convention demo; PBeM/play over chat/IRC gaming/messageboard gaming.

What I'm getting at is that the medium in which you are conducting the game constrains it in a number of ways, and the game must be capable of functioning within those constraints. In the 'technological' thread they're talking about making the communication that imposes the constraints work. Here, we should be talking about making [edit] _A_ game work within those limits.

Finally, korban, is that your real name? We're quite big here on being on first name terms, despite the preponderance of nicks.

*and if there hasn't I may have to start one.
[edit] - no footnote, changed "the game work within those limits" to "a game work within those limits" - the former is firmly in the purview of Indie Game Design - this is theory, so the issues become wider ones of desire and focus rather than implementation and specific design.

erithromycin wrote: Rather than discussing the technological aspects of play, which is what mindwanders started that whole thread for, I think Ron is suggesting that we concentrate on the way in which the game is played -

The content of the communication, if you understand me, rather than the means of its conveyance and response. That is to say, to illustrate completely - what the players will do, and what will happen in response, rather than how the players will contact you the GM and how you will respond to them.

erithromycin wrote: Now, your talk of moving within timeframes - what? I'm somewhat surprised by that - if you're allowing people to change their timescales as much as they want (moving from dockside to starside to, I don't know, combat?) to focus on things, that's one goal, but how are you going to keep track of 100+ different sets of timescales? Isn't the point that there's going to be interaction between them?

erithromycin wrote: To wit, that 5, 6, and 7 seem to be very much constrained by 1 and 2, that 6 and 5 seem to make it difficult to track interaction over larger events, and that 4 is necessarily limited by 2.

erithromycin wrote: Finally, korban, is that your real name? We're quite big here on being on first name terms, despite the preponderance of nicks.

Hello Sean,

Firstly, trust me, 160 characters is short. Admittedly, I'm a fan of proper punctuation, but I use a ridiculous quantity of them to keep track of friends and colleagues and I know roughly how much information I can fit in one. Their primary utility is for, well, short messages - "I am going to be late" - "the project files are in your drop-box on the G5" - "while you're at the supermarket could you buy a new kitchen knife, some refuse sacks, and a spade?"

Secondly, can I just check that the 7 things I enumerated are true?

Thirdly, alright, action effects timeframe - this is a continuous universe though, no? Action in A's turn effects action in B's turn. What happens when they don't match? Remember, perception of this time is fixed, if there's a limited number of texts a day -

A, B, and C, are at the docks at the same time. A gets in his ship and goes to the Asteroid Belt with a package, entering 'ship' time - his next turn is 96 hours of game time long. B &C throwdown over a gambling debt, and get involved in a brawl at dockside. The fight lasts thirty seconds - three turns. A meanwhile, has dropped of his cargo, gotten back in his ship, and has arrived back at the station.

So, to recap - A,B,C are all on the same time - A goes away, B&C stay, and three full turns elapse. A returns to the station 186 hours after the fight started. Where are B&C?

Fourthly, how is communication between players going to work?

Fifth and finally, alright, programs for the various systems, I can handle - it's more instruction for the basepack, but OK - does that mean that when I submit my turn I'll preface it with instructions for my systems? Stuff like, ooh, I dunno, um:

1/CWCI/DFCL/PFJ NC-010 FC-BC4FE TC-SMP4OBAAL MC-SOO DS-MA(MSADDP) DVOA “study documents about AEGIS for clues on location, encrypt before arrival” DACWCI/LSTS

(select option 1*/comply with customs inspection/depart from current location/prepare for jump) (navigation computer - destination 010)(flight computer-best course for fuel efficiency)(trading computer-SELL Maximum Price for Ore BUY All Available Liquor)(maintenance computer-Safety Orders Only)(defensive systems - maximum alert, but make safe at destination defensive perimeter)(During Voyage Other Action something connected to one bit of plot or another)(Destination Arrival Comply With Customs Inspection/Link systems to station)

(*which might have been "take AEGIS documentation from resistance contact")

Block X’s knife using my wrench 2-handed, step back out of range of X, smack X in the head with my wrench as hard as I can, run if miss, call police if I win

Is that the sort of thing you're talking about? I'm still trying to get a handle on the way this is meant to be working. Would each of those be legitimate turns, or things that would fit into the scope of a turn? The first is a 'ship time' one - 96 hours, no? The second is combat time - 10 seconds, which I took the liberty of scripting burning wheel style.

Dan, to try to focus on what Drew is tackling, let me give an actual play account.

In one game the referee tended to play fast and loose with a lot of stuff. For him, the game was always active, and if you happened to be around him and started talking about the game, you were playing.

Now, my suspension of disbelief required me to see time as a constant. Thus I had no problem when the party ended a venture announcing that in four weeks I would be going on another venture and I would be contacting them with the details over the next few days. This mattered, because I needed time to train--I would be advancing to level three during that time. We got together a couple times during that period, and characters did quite a few different and interesting things. I kept track of the flow of time for each character, noting the date of each event.

One of the players was the stepson of the referee. They saw each other every day. To my complete shock, when we came back after the four weeks had elapsed for the rest of us, this character had been adventuring for five years and had advanced to level eight in the process, as well as amassing substantial equipment.

I was personally offended at the inequity of the situation. There was no fair solution at that point, except to say that the character had left and wasn't around for this adventure. Even that wasn't entirely fair, because it meant I'd lost a member of the team I'd expected to be part of things. Yet the referee had no qualms about the idea that this guy who had lived an extra five years should come back at the end of our four weeks, complete with all his experience, training, and equipment.

That's the problem that is looming in your game. If for one player, two days worth of turns advances him ninety seconds and for another it advances him nine centuries, how do you get them on the same clock?

It appears that (like him) you're using a sort of subjective time system. The amount of time a character spends doing something only really matters to his own growth and advancement. If Joe returns to the port ninety seconds later and Bill returns nine centuries later, they're now back in the same time frame if they got their on the same turn. The fact that one of them just stepped into the alley and got into a fight and the other traveled to the far end of the galaxy to pick up some rare commodity and returned affects them individually, but not corporately. It's not necessarily unfair, because Bill could now get involved in something measured in seconds and Joe in something that is measured in centuries, and it all comes out in the wash.

Except that there's still the problem that emerges if Bill and Joe are performing actions on different timescales in the same place So Bill gets in a fight, and is standing in the street involved in round-by-round combat with Someguy. Joe sees him there as he enters the theater. Bill's time scale is one of punches and parries; Joe is going to watch a play, probably in a single message. So Bill starts fighting as Joe steps into the theatre, and then as Bill delivers his second punch, Joe comes out of the theatre having watched the play and ready to turn in for the night. For Joe, a couple hours are gone and it's pretty late at night; for Bill, a couple seconds have past and it's early evening. So Bill calls out to Joe, and asks what time it is--and what the heck time is it?

Thus the potential time distortion creates discontinuity in the game world.

How do you resolve that?

--M. J. Young

Morning all...

I think we're getting two arguments for the same side here and I think that is partly my fault...?
I have three available options for running the Universe when it comes to Timeframe Vs. Continuity;

01) - Keep a 'universal' universe (?) where if player A does something to alter the game before player B then Player A's actions become the new precident for player's B, C, D, etc...

02) - Have the game played as compressed real-time, ie; the 96 Hour period that is one Delfinian day is played out between the hours of 9 & 6 GMT, (Nine hour working day = Circa 10.5 Delfinian Hours to one hour GMT). That is, one hour passes here while ten and a half pass there, when one player sends at 9 in the morning and then another at 12, three hours have passed here but 31.5Hrs have passed there BETWEEN messages...

03) - Time Sync the player's who wish to meet up. I don't really like this as a general working theory though as it's a bit of a reality breaker... Example; If two players, A & B meet up and player A is six months behind player B, they both get a time sync. The time sync is a single message informing them of the date, similar to the calendar update message. The date is half-way of either direction, in this case, player A would be fast forwarded three months into the future and player B be would be sent three months into the past...
-- For the Duration of the Meet --

Once the meet was over they'd receive another time sync informing them of their original time slots... Like I said, kinda crushes reality with a large boot this one huh...?

(There is actually a fourth option I call "Filtered Reality" which is where each player has their own personal universe and only the larger aspects of gameplay continuity break into other player's games, ie; if player A destroys an Envocon, player's B-Z no longer have that envocon to visit. Communication between players would be the same as each player talking to an npc...).

M. J. Young wrote: That's the problem that is looming in your game. If for one player, two days worth of turns advances him ninety seconds and for another it advances him nine centuries, how do you get them on the same clock?

M. J. Young wrote: So Bill calls out to Joe, and asks what time it is--and what the heck time is it? ... Thus the potential time distortion creates discontinuity in the game world ... How do you resolve that?

--M. J. Young

KorbanDream wrote: Keep the storyline as a guardian of time. By this I mean; if it's not in the player's immediate timeframe, it wouldn't be there, so don't show it on the storyline. If Bill know's time as 1800 and Joe knows time as 2200 then Joe would still be inside the theater watching his show while Bill is getting his butt kicked. Based on the outcome of Bill's fight, when Joe leaves the theater he either sees the crime scene because Bill's body is lying face down in a pool of blood or he sees a bloodstain on the floor outside and possibly a leg or two sticking out of the garbage can in the back alley. Joe's immediate timeframe would become the direct outcome of Bill's options... Thought's?

So in this example, Joe wrote: I sneer, turn my back on the enforcer, and walk into the theatre to watch the play; I'll come out when it's over.

On the same turn, Bill wrote: I attempt to surprise him by drawing my knife and lunging at him, all in one move.

I've spent most of the morning reviewing the posts on this thread and I've noticed a pattern forming...

I think I've made a boo boo...

I think I shall have to rename the Universe RPG to;

Universe, Adventure RPG...

Any rpg will allow any movement, feat, task or whatever else that falls within the game's contraints.
Without spending yet another twenty years reconfiguring the mechanics to allow for some of the elements I've blindly (and in some cases, blatantly), overlooked I can see there being more than hassle after prestart.

My only real option is to bring some of the limitations down, make the game a standalone universe per player without player interaction and effectively destroy most of the work I've spent over three quarters of my life on...?

... If anyone's got any idea's...

Hi Korban,

I suggest starting a new thread and not posting to this one again.

This is consistent with our social rules here, which are different from most other websites. A thread which introduces a new idea (and boy is yours new) tends to create a dozen different mini-discussions, and eventually the original thread is left alone and the distinct new discussions are used to start new, much more specific threads.

Best,
Ron