Topic: The Art Thread
Started by: Ben Lehman
Started on: 9/2/2004
Board: Polaris Playtest Forum
On 9/2/2004 at 11:00pm, Ben Lehman wrote:
The Art Thread
Hi.
So one of the topics that came up in the multifaceted First Reading, fast thoughts was the art, design, look and feel of the book. Now this is totally a "distant future" topic in some regards but, on the other hand, I have a few artists on the line, and this is something that I've been giving a lot of thought to recently, myself.
Here are my thoughts on art right now:
1) The "old standard" of fantasy art -- realistically rendered images of particular surrealistic themes, is totally wrong for Polaris. Frankly, I think it is totally wrong for most RPGs, but that is neither here nor there. Similarly, I am not too much happier with the "anime style" of Exalted or BESM. These art pieces convey images, by and large.
1a) I would much rather have art that conveys an emotion than an image. I want the art in Polaris both to evoke the dreamy-fairy-tale nature of the setting and inspire play with a sort of "what is that?" reaction. I want art that, quite specifically, does not show the readers what the contents of their SIS should look like, but rather hints at what might be contained. This is a big deal.
1b) To this end, I think that water-color, impressionistic style, highly-stylized (think stained-glass, tapestry, egyptian text+images, the opening of the Nausicaa, or ink-brush painting), or even totally abstract art styles serve the goals of the book much more.
2) I also have something else I want to do with the art -- I want to show people playing the game, having fun, and in the process demonstrate to some degree how to play the game. I mean, for someone who has not picked up an RPG before, the simple image of a bunch of people sitting around a table with papers and dice is a huge revelation. Most RPG books don't even tell you that much.
2a) Where I am leaning with this goal is hiring an artist (probably the one who did the Over the Bar art) to produce a comic which details the rules and tells the story of a group of people playing Polaris -- the characters they make, and so on. That said, I could be pulled other directions.
3) I am also somewhat divided on the idea of multiple versus single artists (well, perhaps two -- one for in game, one for out of game). I like the idea of having a very small selection of artist -- it gives the book a particular "look and feel" which I think could be a big deal. There is a reason that most illustrated books only have one illustrator. That said, I have 3-4 artists right now willing to work for me either free or very cheap, and that makes it very tempting to use all of them.
In general, I want Polaris to be packed with art. I'm thinking about producing the whole thing full-color (which is free in a PDF form), and having it really be an art-book as well as an RPG.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Right now these statements and plans are pretty mutable, and I know that Dev, at least, has some other thoughts on the matter. I'd also love to hear from Ron and Vincent, the guys who have published RPGs, although to be fair they already talked with me about it at GenCon a bit.
yrs--
--Ben
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On 9/3/2004 at 12:01am, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
Re: The Art Thread
Ben Lehman wrote:
1a) I would much rather have art that conveys an emotion than an image. I want the art in Polaris both to evoke the dreamy-fairy-tale nature of the setting and inspire play with a sort of "what is that?" reaction. I want art that, quite specifically, does not show the readers what the contents of their SIS should look like, but rather hints at what might be contained. This is a big deal.
Wouldn't we all. However, you'd do well to recognize that this is the kernel of illustration as art - they all TRY to convey emotion and touch the audience. So in a sense you're just asking for quality art, nothing more.
It's certainly true that most rpg illustration is not art in this sense, but if you look for the right kind of artist, it's a given that he'll give it the old college try.
1b) To this end, I think that water-color, impressionistic style, highly-stylized (think stained-glass, tapestry, egyptian text+images, the opening of the Nausicaa, or ink-brush painting), or even totally abstract art styles serve the goals of the book much more.
Well, I happen to have some experience with this kind of artist, being that I live with one. I'm talking about extremely stylized art, only a hair this side of abstract (which is something nobody seems to know how to do properly anyway).
I suggest that the main thing to look for with such an artist is the communability of the art; while the polished artist will give you something easily understandable, it'll frequently lack the power to touch anybody. The problem with this kind of artist is the opposite: you might get something that for the artist is extremely powerful, while it doesn't translate at all for others. This is what's wrong with a great majority of abstract artists, fully immersed in their personal IS.
The above is just general advice, in case you've not worked with this type of art before.
2) I also have something else I want to do with the art -- I want to show people playing the game, having fun, and in the process demonstrate to some degree how to play the game. I mean, for someone who has not picked up an RPG before, the simple image of a bunch of people sitting around a table with papers and dice is a huge revelation. Most RPG books don't even tell you that much.
Have you considered photography here? That'd be the simplest way, and with the right guy doing manipulation you'd probably get the right color scheme and style to not come on too strong.
At first glance it looks natural to do natural illustration in photography. Gives a great contrast, too. In truth you'd need the manipulation guy to soften the naturalism somewhat, otherwise the contrast would be too great between photos and illos.
3) I am also somewhat divided on the idea of multiple versus single artists (well, perhaps two -- one for in game, one for out of game). I like the idea of having a very small selection of artist -- it gives the book a particular "look and feel" which I think could be a big deal. There is a reason that most illustrated books only have one illustrator. That said, I have 3-4 artists right now willing to work for me either free or very cheap, and that makes it very tempting to use all of them.
One artist is a must for unity, only corporate idiots and roleplayers expect a random assortment of artists to translate into first-class art. The only reason they get away with it in big rpg companies is the adoption of straight comic realism as de facto standard of roleplaying art, meanwhile splitting the art by layout into discrete units to hide the fact of disunity. Leads to abovementioned soullesness etc. etc.
That said, two artists is a fine option in this case, as you're considering two conseptually differing series of illustrations. If you're forced to go with even more artists, I suggest building the layout and structure of the work to support the same amount of different artistic entities as the number of artists.
In general, I want Polaris to be packed with art. I'm thinking about producing the whole thing full-color (which is free in a PDF form), and having it really be an art-book as well as an RPG.
A fine goal, indeed. I've yet to see such a book, the anime rpg books fall short in a horrifying way. The closest example is probably Praedor, the Finnish fantasy roleplaying game based on the comic books by Petri Hiltunen. Hiltunen illustrated the roleplaying game as well, even including an illustrated gazetteer of the world. Ultimately the book fell short in the art-book department by being laid out in the common rpg book format. Cramming pictures into corners does not an art book make.
Just to be a completist, a question: have you considered paying your artists? If so, what kind of rate?
On 9/3/2004 at 4:03am, Dev wrote:
RE: The Art Thread
Well, I think the pictures/comic of people actually playing it is quite good. And, I'm not sure if I mentioned it already, but I think you convey the beginnings of the world of Polaris in a bona fide "story book" format, as if it was an illustrated fable. Also, aside from art, like I said: formatting will make a tremendous part of whether your book is readable.
(And that's all I can think to say on the matter.)
On 9/17/2004 at 2:31am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: The Art Thread
Hello,
I do remember this discussion from GenCon, Ben, and the only problem it faces, as I'm sure you realize, is that one man's evocative and powerful abstraction (in the most technical sense of the word) is another man's fuckin' ugly splotch, whose six-year-old daughter can paint better than that.
So I think you're talking about finding a superior abstract artist, who can also get behind illustration as a goal of his or her work. Um. That'll be interesting.
As far as integrating the art with the layout, I suggest you contact Phil Brucato, the designer and publisher of Deliria, who recently began posting at the Forge as Satyrblade. He's extremely experienced with exactly this issue and might be able to give you contacts as well as practical information.
Best,
Ron
On 9/17/2004 at 5:24am, Ben Lehman wrote:
RE: The Art Thread
Eero Tuovinen wrote:
Well, I happen to have some experience with this kind of artist, being that I live with one. I'm talking about extremely stylized art, only a hair this side of abstract (which is something nobody seems to know how to do properly anyway).
BL> Ah, yeah. Thank low grouse again for me about that ad.
Does he have any samples of his work available online somewhere? I'm trying to line up potential artists and see what I like the best.
And let him know that yes, I do pay but no, I don't have a lot of money at all. And as per Forge standard, I let him keep the resale rights, and pretty much all the rights but the one to print it in context of Polaris. I'd also like to give a lot of exposure -- if I only have one or two artists, their names will be on the front cover of the text, right next to mine.
When it comes time to ramp up art production, we'll talk about it.
Ron Edwards wrote: Hello,
I do remember this discussion from GenCon, Ben, and the only problem it faces, as I'm sure you realize, is that one man's evocative and powerful abstraction (in the most technical sense of the word) is another man's fuckin' ugly splotch, whose six-year-old daughter can paint better than that.
So I think you're talking about finding a superior abstract artist, who can also get behind illustration as a goal of his or her work. Um. That'll be interesting.
BL> I'm aware of the total abstraction problem, but that's only the extreme end of what I'm looking at. I'll only probably go totally abstract if I find someone who's work makes me go "ohmygod yes Polaris!"
And, oddly, I have a lead on an artist who may very well fit that bill.
yrs--
--Ben