This is split from here:

Frank T wrote:

It's a massive set up for drift. But more importantly, it's a massive set up for drift to exactly the kind of game the group drifts it to.

And that's probably the secret of it's success. (That and the goth stuff.) I've heard this whole criticism about incoherent game design over and over again, but here's a game that almost any gamer can enjoy playing, given the right group. On the other hand, given the wrong group, the most coherent game in the world isn't enough to make everybody have a good time.

I can see the point in coherent game design, but I still think it's a mistake to point out WoD as an example of how not to do it. My 2 cents.

I'd liked to have clarified it in that thread but since it was near its end and it probably wasn't on topic...

What I'd already written about in that thread is that it is unguided drift. And that because of that it can seem marvelously succesful with certain groups. Why? Because these groups are already in unison creatively, or they have the skills between them to become so. This is purely a quality of the group, not the book.

It's much like a piece of equipment or a program that doesn't come with instructions. Some people have the aptitude to work it out on their own. Others don't, but this doesn't make them some sort of scape goat where they can be described as the wrong sort of group and thus the designer doesn't have to take responsiblity for them. There are really wrong groups and then there are groups who go wrong from lack of instruction.

This 'they just need the right group' thing is just bad form. It's like saying you can give a music band a jug, an DJ desk, a trombone and a triangle and say 'Ah, with the right group it'll be magical'. I mean, if your going to have so many varied components CA wise in your game, you may as well design them using some sort of Gygaxian random chart.

Still, we have an urge in roleplay along the lines of 'the book shouldn't be dogmatic!'. Probably much the same as some gamers aversion to nar rules, because their used to getting nar results from dodging rules, not following them.

Note: I think this applies to older D&D incarnations and to palladium. Only from Seans post do I gather it applies to WW, as I have only read the post, not the book.