With apologies to various good golfing movies, the sport itself, the hobby of roleplaying, and Ron Edwards, I present eighteen: a golfing epic for sorcerer.

Notes:
* I'm not 100% happy with the way I articulated Humanity. Though I know what I want and could run it appropriately, I think, I would like it voiced in such a way that good challenges to it become more apparent.
* I need more descriptors pretty much everywhere, including (possibly) a better way to approach (har) Cover.
* An example relationship map would be very good to have, including a number of other players for the tournament, officials, club pros, potential significant others, et cetera.
* That said, I so want to run this. :) I'm not a well person.

Finally, sorry for not posting this directly into the post, folks, but the (albeit minor) layout I put into it during the draft made transfer to the psuedo-html of the forums... unappealing.

I am intrigued. Great quotes on the one-sheet. I'm sure there are plenty of gold pics if you wanted to put some on the sheet.

Could you give an example of a Kicker with some Bangs just so I can wrap my head around what a game of this would perhaps begin to look like?

Thanks.

I'll continue to rip off my source material and use a few examples from there:

Kicker: The community I was once a part of (a hero, really) is hosting a tournament, and they want me to play in the tournament to represent them. If I don't, I will break the spirit of the entire town, if I do... well, I'll have to play. I have not played for a decade.

Bang: One of the other players offers me 30% of the winnings if I lose gracefully.

Bang: I shank a shot into the trees... no one will know if I move the ball to improve my lie. If I don't, I'll probably lose the lead.

Bang: My ex-fiance shows up on the ninth hole and wants me to explain why I disappeared ten years ago.

Bang: Another player, very famous, confides that this is his last match... do you throw the match to let him win?

Kicker: If I don't win X amount of money in this tournament (first or second place), my mother will lose her house.

Bang: Someone offers me enough money to pay off the house WITHOUT playing... with strings attached.

Bang: My mentor dies halfway through the match.

Bang: It becomes clear that someone is sabatoging my game.

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I need to go back and watch Tin Cup to get a Kicker and Bang from there. The basic idea is that none of those kinds of stories are really about winning the game -- they're about the player finding out how to deal with themselves and being in this elite position. Where Sorcerer asks "What will you do for Power", this setup asks "What will you do to win?"

The reason I focused on golf instead of another sport is because of the self-damaging nature that cheating (or playing to 'win' instead of playing to 'play') has on the character themselves -- you're competing against yourself, so it has the same kind inner-demon, personal issue type of feel as Sorcerer.

As I said, an R-map and a couple example characters might go a long way to illustrating this and crystalizing my thoughts.

OK, there's one part that I don't get - powers. That's too simplistic. What I don't get is why sorcerers summon demons in this setting. That is, let's say that my kicker is the girlfriend pregnant thing (call my character Danny Noonan). In deciding what to do, it's important for him to win so that he can be a good father. So, he summons Rodney Dangerfield because....?

He's the best example I can think of, always trying to get his caddy to change his score, getting "injured" when he's behind. The most obvious golf demon I can think of.

What powers does this demon have, and how does it help him accomplish his goals? It seems to me that, yeah it's true that the goals in the movies aren't just to win the game, but winning the game is important. Anyhow, if the characters' goals are not to win the game, then what does it matter if his demon distracts him from doing so?

FWIW, in all of these movies, indeed in all sports movies, at some point winning the big game becomes a metaphor for the character's success in terms of resolving his other goal. That is, it's just like comic books - Spiderman can't defeat the Green Goblin until he's got his relationships all settled. It's golf, and the rewards associated with it that are the distraction to the character being human. In the end, Danny decides he's on the side of doing things your own way, not that of the stuck up country clubbers and their nubile temptress nieces. Once he's made that decision, the game is in the bag (well, with a little help from Karl).

Not sure what I'm saying here, but something needs fixin'.

Mike

Mmm. All excellent points, Mike.

I think one thing I was visualizing was that the demons would be focusing on the 'win' more than the 'play'... the one encouraging the foot-wedge to improve your lie, et cetera.

I must cogitate on this and see how it all comes together.

Love the input from folks, by the way -- everyone's being very cool about the fact that I basically served up a half-baked pie and asked to borrow your oven.

(Totally missed that the pregnant girlfriend thing was Danny Noonan when I wrote that. Mmm.... delicious Caddyshack. Mmm...)

I think one of the first things that occurs to me is that, taken to it's logical conclusion, the sorcerer's demon will be banished as a result of a 'positive' resolution of the Kicker... in sort of the same way that Charnel Gods or Schism has a kind of default type of ending built in, so to does this setup -- either you're going to self destruct, or get control of your demons.

As for 'what the demons do', it's mostly related to playing the game -- once again, I think I need to come up with examples, because much of what first pops into my head is very damaging and adversarial to the character.

Mike Holmes wrote: OK, there's one part that I don't get - powers. That's too simplistic. What I don't get is why sorcerers summon demons in this setting.

Doyce wrote:
1. In the setup, your opponent is really yourself. Thus, the real threat/danger to your Humanity should really be self-contained -- based off that, *you* should be the one that has the demonic abilities... hmm... take out "Lore" and swap in something called "Game" and attach it to the use and/or presence of the abilities you have, perhaps demon-like or using some other method.
a. Resulting development: no demons? Certainly fewer demons.
b. This arrangement's a bit like Urge.
c. Amatuer players have no "Game", thus really aren't in the league of the pros, though they could still play... Hmm.

Mike Holmes wrote:

Doyce wrote:
1. In the setup, your opponent is really yourself. Thus, the real threat/danger to your Humanity should really be self-contained -- based off that, *you* should be the one that has the demonic abilities... hmm... take out "Lore" and swap in something called "Game" and attach it to the use and/or presence of the abilities you have, perhaps demon-like or using some other method.
a. Resulting development: no demons? Certainly fewer demons.

Now I'm getting it even less. No demons? So they're not Sorcerers?

If there's not the implicit "what would you do for power?" question,

Or are you saying that all demons are internal? Already I've been assuming that demons are metaphorical in this version, right? So I don't see any reason to make them internal only.

What's still missing are things like Need and powers. I need an example of a character and his demon, and why he summoned it, I think, before I'll be able to grok this.

First off, I posted an updated version of the one-sheet here: http://random.average-bear.com/img/eighteen.pdf -- in it, I've dropped Lore in favor of "Game", which essentially functions as a demonic Power rating, among other things. I've also fiddled around with defining Need and a few other things that might hopefully clarify the PCs role in the game. It might help to glance over that before looking at this example character generation (which is now also included at the end of the pdf).

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Okay, Example character:

I want to make a character for eighteen that centers on physical strength and moral weakness. Donald Gale is a rough-edged player with little finesse on the course but a tremendous physical presence and strength that generally makes up for it.

For his scores, I place 5 in Stamina, 2 in Will, and 3 in Game. Donald’s a very physical player, but he succumbs to the stresses of the game a little too easily.

· I’ll give Stamina the descriptor of Big Hitter, making further note in the character's background that while Don's not fantastic on the short game, he holds both tee-box and fairway distance records on all but one of the courses that he's ever played on.

· For Will, I choose "Ballsy... Stupid, but Ballsy"; Don is the sort of player who tries to carry a 250-yard water hazard... from the rough... simply because no one ever has. Don's had some run-ins with overzealous members of the British media and likes his black-and-tans after the game, so Hellraiser might work as well, but Ballsy makes him (to my mind) a more likeable character, and it's possible I'm going to need the likeability in the future.

· Finally, for his Game descriptor, I opt against "Loser" (he does have trouble "closing the deal" and winning tournaments) and choose "Star of the Fairway" -- people love a big hitter (especially those American fans), and Don is always good for a few highlight shots on ESPN every season.

Game-based Abilities should be easy as well. Donald’s Game is 3, so I pick three: Boost Stamina (for those record-setting Drives), Vitality, and Attraction (he's something of a fan favorite, despite being a somewhat unattractive man with a face not unlike a potato).

For Donald’s Need, I think for a while – with what I'm looking for, the temptations of the Game You Try to Win should be antithetical to the Game You Want to Play. I end up choosing Wealth, which means Donald may have problems with using his abilities in a way that focuses on "Winning" over "Playing the Game His Way" -- all the hype from the press on Why He Hasn't Won a Big One sometimes gets inside Don's head too much.

Donald’s Humanity starts at 5, equal to his Stamina.

His Price is Arrogant (-1 to Perception rolls). Donald’s not a subtle player and tends to gloss over elements of both the Game and his personal relationships, trying to bull through everything by force of will and brute strength.

For the Kicker, I'm going to put Don's Need in direct opposition to his Humanity (which I'm currently re-writing in my head to read "Playing the Game You Were Meant to Play"): Don's father tells him that his mother has been diagnosed with cancer and the doctor's feel her best chance of survival is a bone-marrow transplant -- the procedure is expensive and his parent's have little in the way of insurance -- Don needs to pull out a big win to save his mother.

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Okay, that's off the top of my head -- let's see if this clarifies of obfuscates.

[EDIT: And before anyone asks, the one-sheet does not have the complete list of Game-based Abilities -- it's just what I came up with without the books in front of me.]

First, I thought from the last post before mine that you were chucking demons entirely. But now what I see you doing is keeping them more or less as parasite demons. Manifested as portions of the character's pychology. Not, as the current text says, Possessors who have no control. Because that can't happen, possessors possess others, and it has no meaning.

Just call these parasites. Because, mechanically they are the same from what I can see at the moment. For instance, you wouldn't want to deny the sorcerer the chance to banish his demon, would you? Or to summon new ones? The point I'm getting at is that saying that it's the sorcerer who has he abilities is simply confusing the issue. If you call them Parasites it works better.

This is what they do in Urge and Schism, no (can't remember). If not, they should.

The only difference in intention that I can detect is that you're removing the demon's Desire. Which I think is a mistake. That is, it seems to me that your idea is to allow the player to control the demon in all but the mechanical aspects of it's need. This would be, essentially, getting rid of the demons. Which is problematic. Because it's the demon/sorcerer relationship that drives things. Even if it's a parasite or whatever, the GM has to be able to "play" the demon at the very least insofar as he gets to say when it dissallows access to powers.

This is why it's most heartily clarified that the demon is the "circuit breaker." Meaning that in all cases it can turn off it's powers. Meaning that the player has to deal with the demon if it wants to be able to do things. Which is the key to it all. It's where the "what would you do?" part occurs. The demon asks the question. Not just in fulfiling it's need - that's too simple a question, and answered with a "yes" before play begins with the first binding. No, the questions have to be new to the situation, and they come from the demon trying to get it's way.

In any case, if the demon is part of the character's psychology, then why not have it be autonomous and in the control of the GM? How isn't that a fun idea to play? Will vs Will rolls are comparing the relative strengths of each side of the psyche. Can the Golfer command his psyche to use the abilities he needs if that part controls them, and makes demands?

Now, as a second point, I don't see why it is that your "solution" answers my question at all. It seems to me that originally you had an idea of what demons are that involved, potentially, Rodney Dangerfield (an idea I like). Or special clubs, or whatever. Lots of cool ideas. Then you changed this, it seems to me (I hope I don't presume too much), in response to my question about how it all hung together. Well, I don't see how it does answer the question, it's still there. Further, if it wasn't meant to address my problem, then I'm not seeing where it adds value in any way. It just seems to be arbitrarily limiting options right now.


Now, I take it that the idea is to play out the entire game in one round of golf? That is, play begins with the player on the first tee, or thereabouts, with the backdrop being that he has to win the game or something very bad happens? Are there other possible premises? Other possible kickers? Or is it meant to be that limited in scope? I'm not saying that this is bad, I'm just trying to get the idea of what happens.

Because in all golf movies, this is not the case. That is, the final game is always abbreviated into just a few shots, usually a montage punctuated with conflicts that revolve around other questions.

Danny Noonan - Only plays the back nine, for cripes sake, replacing Czerviks (Dangerfield). The issue isn't whether or not he can win, it's whether or not he will play. Once he decides to play, he's won the game.

Roy MaCavoy - Playing his way only looses him tournaments (all the shots into the water hazard). He can only win the Open by learning how to have an adult relationship with a woman.

Rannulph Junah - Has to learn to deal with the spectre of war, and to learn to love his girl again before he can deal with his game (haven't seen it, but I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that you don't even get to see the final game).

Happy Gilmore - Has to learn to deal with his anger issues (and again how to deal with a real woman - I'm seeing a trend here), before he can win the Open. Most of the movie is buildup to the open, and the conflicts in the open deal with him finally coming to terms with channeling his anger.

Now, it seems you have two choices. One is to make a golf movie game. The other is to make the golf challenge game.

In the first, Humanity should be "Empathy." The demons don't neccessarily give you abilities to help you win, they give abilities to do things that distract from winning to get things that the character thinks they want.

Danny Noonan - He slaves away all day seeing rich bastards get things they don't deserve, and he wants out. So who does he summon to get out of poverty? Judge Smails. What does he give Danny? The ability to hobnob with the wealthy, including his own neice (Cover?). What does he need? He needs Danny to commit to being on the side of "good" to play toady. What does he desire? To keep the little guy down.

What happens? Danny banishes him when he joins with Ty to win, losing his Cover as a wealthy person, but embracing his "people."

Ty an angel? Works for me. Certainly all about Grace (thank you very little).

Roy McAvoy - Roy's demon is, in fact, the drive to do things his own way. A parasite that has a need for Roy to rebel, and a desire to see him come to ruination, despite his talent. So the ability that the demon gives is golf related, but Roy leans on it. And the demon pulls out just at the right time (hitting into that water hazard), making him lose, and need the demon all the more. Or so he thinks. As soon as he starts to rely on training and respecting others, he banishes that demon, and wins.

Happy Gilmore - His demon is his Anger. He summoned it long ago, to improve his hockey game, and as the movie starts, he learns that it makes him a good golfer, too. It also makes him intolerable to be around. Which is problematic, because he can't get the training he needs, or the girl, which is a distraction. Happy does not banish his anger, he stacks up a huge pile of dice to augment his low will, and orders that demon to work for him, winning the game.

This is how I see the movie version working in Sorcerer terms.


Now, all this said, the other option seems somewhat viable, possibly. That is, limiting the players to just one option in terms of what the issue is, cheating (or whatever not playing their way means). Note that this is not something that I've seen in any movie, but it could be the plot of one, I suppose. Here's the odd thing, however. In this movie, the character might win the round, but lose his soul. And if he keeps his soul, he's that much less likely to win the round. So, in this version, it's OK, apparently, to win by losing the round. In contravention of the movie convention.

I like both, actually. Truth be told, even in the "movie" version, you won't always get the Hollywood ending with Sorcerer. Hmmm.

Mike

Well, holy crap, Mike, that's good stuff. Great stuff, really.

Definitely clarifies for me where the text is unclear (or, more to the point, where my goals are unclear). It also showed me that I was misreading your intent in a number of places.

Re: demons as individual entities -- yes, I see your point and that it makes the game more dynamic. (To answer your other question, I don't believe either Urge or Schism has actual demons. I know Urge doesn't... can't remember for Schism. In either case, it's clear that for optimal flexibility, *I* should probably be using them -- on the one hand, I like what the second-draft setup does by way of internalizing the golfer's abilities, but I think I was focusing on that too much.)

Damn. Yay. This actually got me all jazzed up about the topic again. Thanks.

Another sports movie structure to consider for 18 is For The Love Of The Game.

This plays out most of the events during one baseball game (Read: round of golf) but really uses the game as a way to structure significant flashbacks that expand on the history of Billy Chapel's failed relationship with Jane. It also flashes back to his relationships with other players in that game - whenever those are of relevance.

Oh, I don't think you were misreading me so much as I wasn't being clear.

I have to take a look back at Urge and Schism. But here's the key point. The question isn't whether or not demons are extant as separate entities or not. Simply whether or not you can use sorcery on them.

Here's a better way to ask the question - what is sorcery? Basically, can you give an example of a contact, a summoning, a binding, etc? Or is the game too small in scope for any of that to matter?

The most important question I have is whether or not a golfer can banish his demons? If so, then given that the powers are "his" do they go away with the banishment? Basically, what's important, IMO, is that the powers be a package deal with whatever need and desire the demon has. Such that you have to deal with the demon to use the powers. Again, sans that dynamic, you can just use Hero System. Because what impetus will the character have towards doing the wrong thing?


Steve, I think this is the format of about every sports movie ever written. Bull Durham, girl problems. Remember the Titans, racial problems. Rudy, overcoming stereotypes (hell, for him it's just about getting to play at all, not even about winning). Hoosiers, overcoming a past, and people unwilling to change their ideas. Uh...Breaking Away, about accepting your heritage, no matter how humble.

All of these end up with a single contest at the end, in which these things are all encapsulated. There's always that moment where the person to whom the hero has a relationship, who has been up to this point absent, shows up mid-game, turning the hero's performance around. Or the team-mates reconcile their differences to win the game (Major League comes to mind). The hero, his problems outside of sports now solved, can now buckle down and do what he does best.

In fact, it's so standard it's rather sickening, now that I think about it.


Oh, BTW, for an example of a sports film in which we don't get the Hollywood ending, but the same format exists, Raging Bull. Here the demons (what, about four?) win.

Mike

Hello,

Just posting to say that Mike is so spot-on in this thread, that I can only bow respectfully.

Best,
Ron

Mike Holmes wrote: Here's a better way to ask the question - what is sorcery? Basically, can you give an example of a contact, a summoning, a binding, etc? Or is the game too small in scope for any of that to matter?

Basically, what's important, IMO, is that the powers be a package deal with whatever need and desire the demon has. Such that you have to deal with the demon to use the powers.

Again, sans that dynamic, you can just use Hero System.

Doyce wrote: Fair question. I think I could answer either "the scope is such that the rituals aren't necessarily relevant" or "you won't believe how cool the representation of rituals will be and how nicely they'll tie into the setting".

Seriously, I think I could do two totally different takes on this, one as a full-blown, all-demon-types, all rituals, type of Sorcerer game; the other as an Urge-like "you-are-your-own-demon, who will never go away" riff (with Angels thrown in for Grace, a la Ty from Caddyshack and Bagger from Bagger Vance).

Now, I think (think) that the dynamic of "Feed Need for Power" is there in either incarnation -- in the second version, it's a need the Sorcerer himself has, in the original, it's there through the extant demons.

I'm going to stop talking about version 1 versus version 2, though, and just say that yes, that Need is going to be there (as you say, MUST be there), regardless of the setup -- it's the thing that will pull the character away from their Humanity... has to be.

Mike Holmes wrote: Without a dysfunctional relationship between the demon and the sorcerer, the game doesn't work, IMO.

What it sounds like to me is that you want every sorcerer to have a demon representing the urge to win golf at any cost. That would work, but, again it's pretty narrow.

Mike wrote: Steve, I think this is the format of about every sports movie ever written.

[snip]

There's always that moment where the person to whom the hero has a relationship, who has been up to this point absent, shows up mid-game, turning the hero's performance around.

[snip]

In fact, it's so standard it's rather sickening, now that I think about it.